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Folding - Mucking - Retrieving The Cards


Floor Right or Wrong  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. Was Player "B" entitled to the pot as awarded?

    • Yes, mucked is mucked. B gets it!
      33
    • No, fair is fair. A gets it!
      23


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Player A checks the river on a 246T9 board. Player B bets 12, Player A calls.Player B says "Probably a good call, I'm only Ace-high" and turns his hand over.Player A tosses his cards face down in the middle of the table. Player B says "I'm good?" and dealer starts to ship.Player A says "NO! I have tens!" and reaches forward and flips his cards over. Dealer says "tens" and reverses to ship to Player A.Player B asks for the floor (dealer says "really? You want the floor?"). Floor says "Player A mucked" and awards to Player B.Right or wrong?Player A CALLED the river bet.Player As cards never touched the muck -- they landed next to the board, but face down and about a foot in front of him.

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Player A checks the river on a 246T9 board. Player B bets 12, Player A calls.Player B says "Probably a good call, I'm only Ace-high" and turns his hand over.Player A tosses his cards face down in the middle of the table. Player B says "I'm good?" and dealer starts to ship.Player A says "NO! I have tens!" and reaches forward and flips his cards over. Dealer says "tens" and reverses to ship to Player A.Player B asks for the floor (dealer says "really? You want the floor?"). Floor says "Player A mucked" and awards to Player B.Right or wrong?Player A CALLED the river bet.Player As cards never touched the muck -- they landed next to the board, but face down and about a foot in front of him.
two key lines in this.the muck is not defined as where the cards are piled in the middle of the board, but the line (somtimes imaginary) past where each player sits. If the cards are turned face down past the muck line then the hand is dead and can not be awarded a potedit - see answer below
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actually i take back my previous answer after looking up Roberts Rules of PokerCards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the playerAny player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

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his hand is still live if it didn't touch the muck. even if the dealer touched the cards they are still live. but once they touch the muck it's dead. say A called, B showed ace high, A threw his cards towards the muck but they didn't touch and B asked to see A's high and the dealer flipped em without touching them to the muck first, A's hand would still be live and considered to have been tabled.edit: i was too late. DNA got it right the second time.

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They don't have to touch the physical muck pile, they can be tossed in the direction of the muck and be declared dead. It sounds as though they got this one right though. Best for the game sums it up, the player apparently knew he had the best hand.

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So, the hand MIGHT be live, at management's discretion? In other words, the floor could have gone either way. In this case, nobody but "player a" was interested in seeing the hand turned over - it was self-interest. Tricky decision, then. No incorrect information given, although it may be assumed that "player a" was inattentive to some aspect of the procedings, and called thinking he could beat ace-high.So, how do you rule?

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There are three aspects of mucked cards to me:1. Forward Motion2. Face Down3. ReleasedPlayer A met all three criteria when he threw his cards face down toward the center of the table. He clearly intended to muck. he did not protect his cards nor did he make an effort to table them at showdown.MUCKEDPlayer B and the Floor got it right. The dealer and Player A were both wrong.

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The dealer should have raked the mucked cards into the muck. Following procedures will keep this from happening.If the cards never hit the muck then the player can retrieve and table them, then the cards speak for themselves.again, the dealer should have scooped the cards into the muck when they went face down towards the dealer.

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WTF is Player A's problem? Oh yeah, the usual way to show off the winning hand is to toss it facedown to the dealer....he should lose the hand and then have to sit out 10 minutes and think about how stupid he is.

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Well this is similer to the situation in High Stakes Poker Season 2.There was a hand between Phil Lak and Minh Ly. Minh Ly had missed his draw so he was left with Queen high. He bluffed on the river, and Phil called him down with a set of Tens. (He had pocket ten and a ten hit flop). When Phil called, Minh tapped the table and mucked his cards. Phil proceeded to muck his own cards, without even showing his trip tens. I think his cards landed beside the muck, and he retrieved it but only showed one ten. But he got the pot anyways.

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Well this is similer to the situation in High Stakes Poker Season 2.There was a hand between Phil Lak and Minh Ly. Minh Ly had missed his draw so he was left with Queen high. He bluffed on the river, and Phil called him down with a set of Tens. (He had pocket ten and a ten hit flop). When Phil called, Minh tapped the table and mucked his cards. Phil proceeded to muck his own cards, without even showing his trip tens. I think his cards landed beside the muck, and he retrieved it but only showed one ten. But he got the pot anyways.
Entirely different situation.
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13CARDS is replying....the right answer is coming.Edit: He beat me..
I looked and looked for the SW but I couldn't find it anywhere....hmmmmmm?!?!??!
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Interesting split of opinion. I even like the vote for both "because I could...". In "robert's" the phrase "the best interest of the game" is ambiguous. Is it good for the game to let people with 2nd-best hand win? Is it good for the game to let people "un-fold" when they make an error (in attention or judgement)?If you are Player B, would you call for the floor, or just shrug and move on to the next hand? If you're Player A, do you feel injustice or just kick yourself for being stupid?Seeing the arguments, I think the floor got it right.

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Why would the player with 10's muck it to begin with, when the other player says "Ace high?"The guy with 10's should lose the pot for stupidity's sake so he doesn't do it again.

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In my daily experience in a live B&M poker room, I have come to a few conclusions.1. Online players or new, inexperienced players (to B&Ms) need to learn and practise the "feel" of a live game before playing with others. Clicking buttons is enirely different than knowing how to protect your cards, knowing how not to act out of turn, handling chips properly (I don't mean doing tricks!).2. I have no problem ruling against players that have made errors is judgement. You need to learn the rules and if it means you lose a pot you should have won, maybe that is what is takes./sermon

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I think the hand is still live. The player flipped it up to show his hand before the dealer touched the cards. There wouldn't be any confusion if the dealer just did a little bit of a better job. Why would he be awarding the pot to the other player if he didn't muck those cards yet? If the dealer just put them in the muck right away, it would be too late for him to say anything about his pair of tens and he would learn his lesson.

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I think the hand is still live. The player flipped it up to show his hand before the dealer touched the cards. There wouldn't be any confusion if the dealer just did a little bit of a better job. Why would he be awarding the pot to the other player if he didn't muck those cards yet? If the dealer just put them in the muck right away, it would be too late for him to say anything about his pair of tens and he would learn his lesson.
The player with the winning hand threw his cards in towards the muck face down, that's the issue here. Basically A said he had A high, player B then threw his pair towards the muck face down, no one knew what he had, all they saw was a motion that he was mucking his hand.
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Player A checks the river on a 246T9 board. Player B bets 12, Player A calls.Player B says "Probably a good call, I'm only Ace-high" and turns his hand over.Player A tosses his cards face down in the middle of the table. Player B says "I'm good?" and dealer starts to ship.Player A says "NO! I have tens!" and reaches forward and flips his cards over. Dealer says "tens" and reverses to ship to Player A.Player B asks for the floor (dealer says "really? You want the floor?"). Floor says "Player A mucked" and awards to Player B.Right or wrong?Player A CALLED the river bet.Player As cards never touched the muck -- they landed next to the board, but face down and about a foot in front of him.
I used to know this bizarre guy who carried a magnetic strip in his wallet that would set off door alarms when he exited stores and then get all outraged when security stopped him and searched him for shoplifted items. This has the same distinct odor about it. I don't think it was laziness or stupidity or any other damned thing, I think Player "A" got exactly what he deserved. Wonder how many times he's pulled the "super slow-roll" and gotten away with it before anyone called him on it?
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Players that are "slow-rolling" don't MUCK* their cards first.

Pokeraholic Posted Yesterday, 8:51 PM this seems pretty easy, like it or not, player A did NOT muck....
How do you infer that Player A did NOT muck* his cards??? I would like to hear your reasoning?
A_Bullets_A Posted Yesterday, 10:32 PM I think the hand is still live. The player flipped it up to show his hand before the dealer touched the cards.
So, you consider cards to be mucked ONLY if the dealer touches them?* See my definition of mucked cards.
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I believe the definition of cards being mucked would be if they actually TOUCHED THE MUCK. The cards did not, thus the hand should be able to be retrieved. Player A should get the potas dumb as he was for tossing his cards face DOWN into the muck, they never touched it and that hand should not have been declared dead

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