Ever Ok To Chase Runner Runner Low?

[blakheart 3]

Playing live 6-12 game. (limit game)I am in the SB with A234 suited in diamonds. 4 limpers call- I raise and the BB and all 4 limpers come along.The flop comes Q 77 with one diamond. I check- BB bets, all limpers call. At this point I am getting 18-1 to chase the low, and I can close the action. Is it resonable to take one off here?

[Sluggo 0]

Yes.

[simo_8ball 0]

Yes.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Yep. An ace would be beautiful.

[bassplayer45459 0]

This is a tough one. Alot of people can use some math to justify going after the low is these scenarios, i generally fold in this scenario, but alot will pay to see the next card. Tough call, i am interested to see what most people would do

[H_Factor73 2]

Playing live 6-12 game. (limit game)I am in the SB with A234 suited in diamonds. 4 limpers call- I raise and the BB and all 4 limpers come along.The flop comes Q 77 with one diamond. I check- BB bets, all limpers call. At this point I am getting 18-1 to chase the low, and I can close the action. Is it resonable to take one off here?

The first problem with this scenario IMO is raising preflop. You are out of position and you are not going to limit the field with this bet. With 5 people in the pot, chances are you are only going to be playing for half of the pot anyway because your diamonds are not likely to get there. Any straight draws are probably covered by the other five players. (Meaning they are likely to be playing any combination of A2, A3, 23, etc.) I think it's best to limp in just in case a flop like the one you described hit. You are going to get that missed bet back if a flop of like 3 5 8 (rainbow or diamonds) comes because you can check raise a flop like this and get that bet back easily. Or even better you can check call the flop and check raise the turn when there is more money to be made.As far as peeling one off after the flop I think it is -ev merely because you are in the worst position at the table. But there is no reason not to call if you feel like gambling. In this case I think you are donating because you are likely to get quartered or worse.If you were last to act or in late position it would be an easier call.

[benhoug 0]

The first problem with this scenario IMO is raising preflop.

I very much disagree w/ you here. We have an outstanding hand for Omaha8. We don't want to limit the field. If a low comes there's no way for us to be counterfeited. Even if we are playing for half the pot we want to get as much money in that pot as possible.As for peeling one off, yup, you can peel one off here no problem. I don't want to search through old posts, but I think Akishore wrote something about this quite a while ago.

[Vman96 0]

The first problem with this scenario IMO is raising preflop. You are out of position and you are not going to limit the field with this bet.

Who said we wanted to limit the field? We're raising for VALUE. Live O8 is terrible. We almost certainly have the best hand preflop...2nd best at worst. Make 89KQ pay to see the flop.As for post flop, yeah, i peel one off here, hoping for an ace, 2 or a low diamond.

[H_Factor73 2]

Who said we wanted to limit the field? We're raising for VALUE. Live O8 is terrible. We almost certainly have the best hand preflop...2nd best at worst. Make 89KQ pay to see the flop.

What VALUE did you get when the flop came down Q77. A backdoor flush and a backdoor low. That was worth 2 bets . Then when you check you are showing how weak you are on this flop. You are making your hand transparent. What are you going to do check raise on the flop? Another losing prospect. All you have done is opened the door to lose money.Let's say the flop came down differently (A 5 6 two diamonds), are you going to bet or try and check raise? Chances are you going to lose bets going into the pot because of your raise. Your raise has now limited the value of future bets when such a favorable board to lows and flushes comes. How much more would you get paid had you just called the one bet. You're limiting loss by just calling the bb and maximizing profit on future streets.Back to the actual hand:With that hand and that position, putting more money in preflop is only a recipe for losing dough in the long run. If you are playing with players who play 89KQ (and the only one who has any business doing so in this situation is the big blind) then by all means raise away. However, OP did not say this was the type of table he was at. Raising with 5 players preflop with this position and four suited cards is -ev. When you play split games you are playing to scoop pots. Position is even more important with more players in the hand. He's in the worst position. Also by not raising he is diguising the strength of his hand. Also when he only puts one small bet in, letting this hand go on the flop is easier. With this hand your best way of scooping a pot is with a flush. I guarantee you that one of those hands is drawing with A2 and chances are you have cards in there that are going to draw to better straights than what you have. With four cards to a flush that leaves only 9 other diamonds to hit his flush. Chances are that there is at least one diamond in 3 to 5 of those hands meaning at best there are only 4 to 6 of his suit left. The flush most likely ain't going to get there.If you are willing to play for half pots then raise away. But when you get quartered, don't come crying to me. It sure is great to win the hand yet still lose money.

[checkymcfold 0]

What VALUE did you get when the flop came down Q77. A backdoor flush and a backdoor low. That was worth 2 bets . Then when you check you are showing how weak you are on this flop. You are making your hand transparent. What are you going to do check raise on the flop? Another losing prospect. All you have done is opened the door to lose money.Let's say the flop came down differently (A 5 6 two diamonds), are you going to bet or try and check raise? Chances are you going to lose bets going into the pot because of your raise. Your raise has now limited the value of future bets when such a favorable board to lows and flushes comes. How much more would you get paid had you just called the one bet. You're limiting loss by just calling the bb and maximizing profit on future streets.Back to the actual hand:With that hand and that position, putting more money in preflop is only a recipe for losing dough in the long run. If you are playing with players who play 89KQ (and the only one who has any business doing so in this situation is the big blind) then by all means raise away. However, OP did not say this was the type of table he was at. Raising with 5 players preflop with this position and four suited cards is -ev. When you play split games you are playing to scoop pots. Position is even more important with more players in the hand. He's in the worst position. Also by not raising he is diguising the strength of his hand. Also when he only puts one small bet in, letting this hand go on the flop is easier. With this hand your best way of scooping a pot is with a flush. I guarantee you that one of those hands is drawing with A2 and chances are you have cards in there that are going to draw to better straights than what you have. With four cards to a flush that leaves only 9 other diamonds to hit his flush. Chances are that there is at least one diamond in 3 to 5 of those hands meaning at best there are only 4 to 6 of his suit left. The flush most likely ain't going to get there.If you are willing to play for half pots then raise away. But when you get quartered, don't come crying to me. It sure is great to win the hand yet still lose money.

this is not right. if you don't raise a234 out of a blind to 3+ limpers you're likely not a winning LO8 player. we build the pot preflop so that getting quartered hurts less, and also win a lot more when we get half. in short, as vman said, this is purely a value raise.we also make a lot of wheels with this hand. a234, sooted or not, is a monster in this game.OP, i raise preflop, cap if possible when it gets back to me, and c/c the flop, folding the turn if a low doesn't come.

[akishore 0]

H_Factor, you are extremely off and way wrong. You have such a monstrously huge edge with A234s in a six-way field.And fwiw, position is the least important factor to consider in loose, low limit LO8 games, imo. As in, I think position is basically irrelevant in those games and you're completely fine making every move as if you were the button (preflop specifically).Aseem

[H_Factor73 2]

H_Factor, you are extremely off and way wrong. You have such a monstrously huge edge with A234s in a six-way field.And fwiw, position is the least important factor to consider in loose, low limit LO8 games, imo. As in, I think position is basically irrelevant in those games and you're completely fine making every move as if you were the button (preflop specifically).Aseem

OK, so we disagree. However, I don't think I'm "way wrong." If you read my intention behind not raising you will see that the real point in not raising is three fold: 1) disguising your hand; 2) being able to make up for it on later streets with that misdirection; and 3) making it easier to get away from it when a crappy flop like Q77 comes.SuperSystem II advocates playing A234 with a raise in any position. I don't like it out of position. That's just me. Anyway, here's the funny thing. I got the same hand (double suited not that it matters with a 4-high flush draw) in the small blind the other day playing 15-30. There were three callers before it got to me. So, like you all advocated I raised this time. The flop:Q77 rainbowThanks for costing me 15 dollars! :icon_doh:Just an aside: another argument for limping is to give the bb a chance to raise so I could make it 3 bets pre flop.

[navybuttons 15]

OK, so we disagree. However, I don't think I'm "way wrong." If you read my intention behind not raising you will see that the real point in not raising is three fold: 1) disguising your hand; 2) being able to make up for it on later streets with that misdirection; and 3) making it easier to get away from it when a crappy flop like Q77 comes.SuperSystem II advocates playing A234 with a raise in any position. I don't like it out of position. That's just me. Anyway, here's the funny thing. I got the same hand (double suited not that it matters with a 4-high flush draw) in the small blind the other day playing 15-30. There were three callers before it got to me. So, like you all advocated I raised this time. The flop:Q77 rainbowThanks for costing me 15 dollars! :icon_doh:Just an aside: another argument for limping is to give the bb a chance to raise so I could make it 3 bets pre flop.

you can't have ABCDds and only have a 4 high flush draw. you didn't call the flop bet w/ a backdoor low and a backdoor flush draw?actually, i'm not going to give anymore response. goodluck.

[H_Factor73 2]

you can't have ABCDds and only have a 4 high flush draw.

Yes you can. A2 are suited, 34 are suited. Secondary suit is a 4-high flush draw PREFLOP. I was saying that double suited doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot with the second suit generating a 4-high flush.

you didn't call the flop bet w/ a backdoor low and a backdoor flush draw?

It checked around on the flop. Turn brought a 10 with the fourth suit.

actually, i'm not going to give anymore response. goodluck

QFT because I was referencing the exact same conditions as OP's with the exact same flop. I found it humorous. Before you allege I'm an idiot, why don't you read the context of the entire post. Because actually, you are the idiot in this situation.

[navybuttons 15]

Before you allege I'm an idiot, why don't you read the context of the entire post. Because actually, you are the idiot in this situation.

you got me there. my humble apologies. in a few years when i learn this game i'll come back to this thread and a warm flush of embarrasment will wash over me.i don't understand why you quoted that part for truth but oh well. and when did i allege you were an idiot? i don't really understand this game, but it seems like you have some idea what you are talking about so i'll bow out gracefully. goodluck.

[KVOM 0]

I once did the math. With A234 and one non-matching low on the board you are 26% to make a low )in this case the nut low).

[H_Factor73 2]

Darth Tater. I love Darth Tater.

[checkymcfold 0]

I once did the math. With A234 and one non-matching low on the board you are 26% to make a low )in this case the nut low).

this is close to correct. the numbers will vary from 20 to 30 or sometimes 35% for a running low with CP depending on how often you think the villains hold low cards or high cards. sometimes the flop action will indicate a lot of people holding high cards, in which case i will sometimes even peel 2 bets with a running low with counterfeit protection.it's hard to calculate all that stuff in a game setting, though, so as a general rule i will do this:if i have counterfeit protection, i assume my running low will get there 30% of the time if there are a couple callers on the flop.if i don't, i assume it will get there 20% of the time if there are a few callers.if i have some chance at making the high (i hold a pair, or the low card makes some running lows turn into straights as well), then i will bump a decision from "maybe" or "probably fold" to "peel the flop."

[checkymcfold 0]

H_Factor, you are extremely off and way wrong. You have such a monstrously huge edge with A234s in a six-way field.And fwiw, position is the least important factor to consider in loose, low limit LO8 games, imo. As in, I think position is basically irrelevant in those games and you're completely fine making every move as if you were the button (preflop specifically).Aseem

good point. the odd thing about o8 is that in limit forms, position is not very important at all, but in pl forms, it's probably the most important thing.in limit, however, position becomes pretty important when considered relative to the aggressive, pot-driving players at the table. the weird thing is that it's actually better to be to their RIGHT in this game, since you'll be able to c/r strong draws for a huge edge in value on the flop. the exception to this is when you're at a tighter table and the ability to isolate aggro players for scoop possibilities outweighs the opportunity to value raise draws.

[KVOM 0]

this is close to correct. the numbers will vary from 20 to 30 or sometimes 35% for a running low with CP depending on how often you think the villains hold low cards or high cards. sometimes the flop action will indicate a lot of people holding high cards, in which case i will sometimes even peel 2 bets with a running low with counterfeit protection.

The math uses only the 45 unknown cards. Adjusting your percentages based on other players' actions is incorrect theoretically. In any case, non-wheel low cards 6-8 are just as valuable in this case as A-5.In this case you have A234 with a 7 on the board. This is less attractive than A235 with a 4 on the board, as you cannot make a low straight.

[checkymcfold 0]

The math uses only the 45 unknown cards. Adjusting your percentages based on other players' actions is incorrect theoretically. In any case, non-wheel low cards 6-8 are just as valuable in this case as A-5.In this case you have A234 with a 7 on the board. This is less attractive than A235 with a 4 on the board, as you cannot make a low straight.

anticipating what cards are out and which remain in the deck based on action is what separates very good and excellent lo8 players from slight winners, not "incorrect theoretically."

[navybuttons 15]

good point. the odd thing about o8 is that in limit forms, position is not very important at all, but in pl forms, it's probably the most important thing.in limit, however, position becomes pretty important when considered relative to the aggressive, pot-driving players at the table. the weird thing is that it's actually better to be to their RIGHT in this game, since you'll be able to c/r strong draws for a huge edge in value on the flop. the exception to this is when you're at a tighter table and the ability to isolate aggro players for scoop possibilities outweighs the opportunity to value raise draws.

how is this still going on? someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of the game (no offense H_Factor but your skippaments are rigged ) comes here, posts some rubbish, and we go back to third grade omaha talking about simple situations.checky's post here is one of the more insightful of the thread. even still one should feel the concepts he's talking about inherently after enough hands.

anticipating what cards are out and which remain in the deck based on action is what separates very good and excellent lo8 players from slight winners, not "incorrect theoretically."

this is good stuff too. checky, did you do this naturally or was it learned?

[navybuttons 15]

double post