Mtt With Big Name Online Players

[wakeforest22 0]

I had been impressed with Bkice's play and set out to watch him play a MTT. I made one good run at MTTs in about a week's span, and haven't done anything since. My biggest question was in accumulating chips in early stages to be able to use position effectively in the later stages. My only way of accumulating originally was to force my big hands in against slightly lesser hands like AK to AQ or QQ to JJ and having them hold. So I finally did watch a PS tourney ($100 + 9) in which Bkice played. To my surprise, he had played (or so it had seemed) much like I did in early stages...not getting into to many pots and just playing straightforward. He went out fairly early when a small pair didn't hold and blinds were 100/200 area. The next time I decided to watch when I had the time was another PS tourney, Bkice wasn't playing in, but BeLOWaBOVe was. I was even more surprised when he also played typically the same way. I was expecting "unorthodox" moves, but he didn't not play more than one in nine hands, and I never really saw a showdown. He too went out early. I watched the Sunday Million (PS) this past week, watching many players. I started watching Neverwin. He seemed to raise 1 in 3 pots in which position allowed it. He accumulated many chips through this method...at least one person would see a flop, but they would check to him and fold to his bet. He also made those bets in which you should be playing the other players cards and not your own. He made that bet every time, where I don't tend to make them more than 1 out of 5 times. I scare from those, though usually after I check I regret doing it. I assumed he got away with this through reputation alone. He never got into any big siutations. Early at least. He went on to bubble. I switched over to Shaniac at some point out of boredom, and he played fairly tight. Same for Gank, Annette_15, plattsburgh (I'd never heard of him, but I went to school there and had to search him out to find he lives 10 miles from me) and Pwnasauras. Gabboboy was also at a table I was watching and I think he went on to finish high, but all I saw from him were good cards.So bottom line, I believe I play exactly like Bkice, but my zero to limited bankroll doesn't allow me to hit up the big MTTs still. I guess Ive learned to bet the clear cut situations despite my holdings and that I may not be playing the wrong style of poker. I realize that this surely isn't a large enough sample to judge the players mentioned. So no disrespect to anyone's name mentioned.Thank you

[PrtyPSux 0]

from all those players I'd say Shaniac is the one thats REALLY worth railing, he's sick.when I first started mtt's I spent a week just watching people play..bax, gank, sheets, where the big names at the time, and I couldn't figure out what they were doing that made them so successful, I thought everything they did HAD to be genius. Since then I've pretty much lost respect for Gank and Sheet's play, I think gank is a great omaha player but his NL game is way too tight for my taste, the same with sheets. I think Bax is a great player obviously, and his results speak for themselves.I'd suggest railing successful players with different styles of play and then developing an approach to MTT's that works for you, not what works for them. If you're going to watch players, here's a list :RoothlusApestylesTmay420Bel0wimperiumBaxfoshioImsolucky0CrazyMarcoTheWacokidThose are the players I respect the most online, I left some out but I think that list is enough you get to watch a tighter than tight player like Waco who seemingly makes no mistakes as far as individual hands go, and you can watch imperium for the "ultra lag" style that he makes work....Imsolucky is the trickiest of the ones I mentioned, as well as bel0w and Marco.. Rooth and Ape have the best approach to online MTT's imo and they play different than most.. Tmay and Bax are str8 forward but know exactly when to make moves and when to avoid them...and Foshio, he's just a genius overall.I honestly don't know how much you can pick up from just watching them but if you watch them enough time you can probably pick up whatever makes them great and adapt it to your game.Oh yea, and if you ever feel the need to learn how to play the short stack, rail SamEnole...best shortstack player ever AINEC.

[dbrent2 0]

from all those players I'd say Shaniac is the one thats REALLY worth railing, he's sick.when I first started mtt's I spent a week just watching people play..bax, gank, sheets, where the big names at the time, and I couldn't figure out what they were doing that made them so successful, I thought everything they did HAD to be genius. Since then I've pretty much lost respect for Gank and Sheet's play, I think gank is a great omaha player but his NL game is way too tight for my taste, the same with sheets. I think Bax is a great player obviously, and his results speak for themselves.I'd suggest railing successful players with different styles of play and then developing an approach to MTT's that works for you, not what works for them. If you're going to watch players, here's a list :RoothlusApestylesTmay420Bel0wimperiumBaxfoshioImsolucky0CrazyMarcoTheWacokidThose are the players I respect the most online, I left some out but I think that list is enough you get to watch a tighter than tight player like Waco who seemingly makes no mistakes as far as individual hands go, and you can watch imperium for the "ultra lag" style that he makes work....Imsolucky is the trickiest of the ones I mentioned, as well as bel0w and Marco.. Rooth and Ape have the best approach to online MTT's imo and they play different than most.. Tmay and Bax are str8 forward but know exactly when to make moves and when to avoid them...and Foshio, he's just a genius overall.I honestly don't know how much you can pick up from just watching them but if you watch them enough time you can probably pick up whatever makes them great and adapt it to your game.Oh yea, and if you ever feel the need to learn how to play the short stack, rail SamEnole...best shortstack player ever AINEC.

don't you need to rest up for the drinking that will be happening?Thanks for the great advice throughout this forum. I am sure I am not the only one that has improved my play just by lurking

[PrtyPSux 0]

don't you need to rest up for the drinking that will be happening?Thanks for the great advice throughout this forum. I am sure I am not the only one that has improved my play just by lurking

yw...and I've been resting up FROM all the drinking...I've been in Acapulco since the 25th, 40 dollar cover charge + open bar till 6 am = severe hang overs

[dbrent2 0]

yw...and I've been resting up FROM all the drinking...I've been in Acapulco since the 25th, 40 dollar cover charge + open bar till 6 am = severe hang overs

So, that equals out to about $.10 a drink, give or take a nickel...

[wakeforest22 0]

from all those players I'd say Shaniac is the one thats REALLY worth railing, he's sick.when I first started mtt's I spent a week just watching people play..bax, gank, sheets, where the big names at the time, and I couldn't figure out what they were doing that made them so successful, I thought everything they did HAD to be genius. Since then I've pretty much lost respect for Gank and Sheet's play, I think gank is a great omaha player but his NL game is way too tight for my taste, the same with sheets. I think Bax is a great player obviously, and his results speak for themselves.I'd suggest railing successful players with different styles of play and then developing an approach to MTT's that works for you, not what works for them. If you're going to watch players, here's a list :RoothlusApestylesTmay420Bel0wimperiumBaxfoshioImsolucky0CrazyMarcoTheWacokidThose are the players I respect the most online, I left some out but I think that list is enough you get to watch a tighter than tight player like Waco who seemingly makes no mistakes as far as individual hands go, and you can watch imperium for the "ultra lag" style that he makes work....Imsolucky is the trickiest of the ones I mentioned, as well as bel0w and Marco.. Rooth and Ape have the best approach to online MTT's imo and they play different than most.. Tmay and Bax are str8 forward but know exactly when to make moves and when to avoid them...and Foshio, he's just a genius overall.I honestly don't know how much you can pick up from just watching them but if you watch them enough time you can probably pick up whatever makes them great and adapt it to your game.Oh yea, and if you ever feel the need to learn how to play the short stack, rail SamEnole...best shortstack player ever AINEC.

Such quality in a first response...I do appreciate it.I had forgotten that I did watch Bax play one as well, and yes he was pretty straightforward, and even sucked out twice with an A9 to AK and KK to AA. Ultimately, since there are no hole card cams, and showdowns are rare, I lose interest quickly...but I will continue to force myself to watch. Thanks

[DoinSublime 0]

can the mods combine these two threads so we can reference them together?

[HoosierAlum 0]

Such quality in a first response...I do appreciate it.I had forgotten that I did watch Bax play one as well, and yes he was pretty straightforward, and even sucked out twice with an A9 to AK and KK to AA. Ultimately, since there are no hole card cams, and showdowns are rare, I lose interest quickly...but I will continue to force myself to watch. Thanks

The fastest way for you to learn is to get coached by a top player and sweat his cards or to join a poker school like cardrunners or pokerxfactor. If youre looking to excel at doinkaments, join PxFactor and you can see EXACTLY how players like Bax, Rizen, Below, and Sheets play.

[wakeforest22 0]

The fastest way for you to learn is to get coached by a top player and sweat his cards or to join a poker school like cardrunners or pokerxfactor. If youre looking to excel at doinkaments, join PxFactor and you can see EXACTLY how players like Bax, Rizen, Below, and Sheets play.

The problem with a poker school or coaching is that I have developed my own theories comprehensively, in that basically using a TAG style is most consistent +EV. I'm afraid that by doing one of these things, I may have to break down my whole school of thought and start over, and I'm not sure I'm completely capable of that. Has anyone ever encountered this? Or is the pokerschool more about just watching and listening?

[PrtyPSux 0]

The fastest way for you to learn is to get coached by a top player and sweat his cards or to join a poker school like cardrunners or pokerxfactor. If youre looking to excel at doinkaments, join PxFactor and you can see EXACTLY how players like Bax, Rizen, Below, and Sheets play.

I think this could be counterproductive sometimes...while you see what someone like Bel0w does, he has reads that a new player simply can't get, even though below prob explains his read in the video there is no way to duplicate that exact situation and get that exact read this may be missleading to new players and cause them to make mistakes. When I first started NL cash I was watching the cardrunners videos and ended up making a ton of mistakes, because everything they do was read dependant, and I couldnt get those reads in cash games yet.Obv watching the dude's hole cards + commentary > watching no hole cards and no commentary and getting an actual coach to talk you through stuff and fix leaks would be the best way to learn. I'm a believer in self teaching though, if you think about the game and play it long enough you'll eventually get good.

[HoosierAlum 0]

I'm afraid that by doing one of these things, I may have to break down my whole school of thought and

IMO, one of the most prevalent traits in successful players is that they are ALWAYS thinking about new strategies and analyzing different ways to play the game. Never be afraid to break down your current school of thought, because if you always think that one style is "right" your game isn't going to improve and people will pass you by. In todays poker climate there are so many talented players, you need to be adjusting CONSTANTLY.One of these poker schools is going to help you with your confidence because you will see that successful players are playing similarly to yourself. You will also pick up other lines of thinking that had never previously crossed your mind. For the miniscule price these places charge, it is foolish not to join.

[HoosierAlum 0]

I think this could be counterproductive sometimes...while you see what someone like Bel0w does, he has reads that a new player simply can't get, even though below prob explains his read in the video there is no way to duplicate that exact situation and get that exact read this may be missleading to new players and cause them to make mistakes. When I first started NL cash I was watching the cardrunners videos and ended up making a ton of mistakes, because everything they do was read dependant, and I couldnt get those reads in cash games yet.Obv watching the dude's hole cards + commentary > watching no hole cards and no commentary and getting an actual coach to talk you through stuff and fix leaks would be the best way to learn. I'm a believer in self teaching though, if you think about the game and play it long enough you'll eventually get good.

Yea I agree that it can be counterproductive. You need to take it for what its worth. Obviously not everyone can play like Below and Green Plastic, and you need to take certain things from their games and apply them to your own. Initially, I had the same problem with cash games when I joined Cardrunners. I tried to play exactly like GP, and I was making a million mistakes. Fortunately I kept analyzing/talking with others and I've been able to incorporate certain things he does into my game. It is definitely a recipe for disaster if you try to 100% emulate another player. Every player is different, and every table/situation is going to be slightly different. You need to adjust to all these things and become an individual as a player. Don 't confine yourself to a label such as lag, tag, loose-passive, or however you want to describe it, just DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU IN A GIVEN SITUATION.The bottom line is that more information/ideas/styles/theories to stimulate your own thinking >>>>>> less information/ideas/styles/theories.

[PrtyPSux 0]

In todays poker climate there are so many talented players, you need to be adjusting CONSTANTLY.

soooooooooooooooo true...people are getting very good VERY fast, if you can stay one step ahead of "fads" you'll do well, however if you're behind and improving all you'll be doing is catching up with the rest and you'll be avg or a bit above avg.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Since it seems like you prefer tight play, you would probably benefit most from watching Rizen's videos.

[Vick12 0]

The problem with a poker school or coaching is that I have developed my own theories comprehensively, in that basically using a TAG style is most consistent +EV. I'm afraid that by doing one of these things, I may have to break down my whole school of thought and start over, and I'm not sure I'm completely capable of that. Has anyone ever encountered this? Or is the pokerschool more about just watching and listening?

No offense OP, but if you are unable/unwilling to embrace new ideas/theory's, you will NEVER EVER EVER GET BETTER!!! If u have ideas in your mind that u have devoloped and are unwilling to change them it's impossible to improve. Unless of course you are already a huge winning player, but judging from you post, I think you are someone who isn't where they want/need to be as a player.Good luck!!!

[Tantalar 0]

Ive seen apestyles in action. Played against him actually. Hes a friggin maniac. I guess his strategy works well against really tight/bad players, but it doesnt work against anyone who knows what they are doing. (he tried bluffing me like 5 times in an UB tournament around the bubble/ at the FT) Naturally I punished him each timeIf it wasnt for 27% rakeback, id be playing tournaments online again full time like I was before. I made $15k in '06 from the 11pm tournaments on UB, but with 27% rakeback I dont know how I can pass that up

[astros11ss 0]

this isn't really relevant, but i'm pretty sure bax/sheets don't think that below's videos will help or improve any online players' game, and they actually introduced him as a guest pro a) because people (me included) love watching his lagginess at work and B) because it will make people start to play worseand i don't really agree with most of the "great players" that have been listed in this thread but apestyles is definitely a sick individual with a disgusting track record, dunno how you can say his style doesn't work against people who know what they're doing.

[wakeforest22 0]

No offense OP, but if you are unable/unwilling to embrace new ideas/theory's, you will NEVER EVER EVER GET BETTER!!! If u have ideas in your mind that u have devoloped and are unwilling to change them it's impossible to improve. Unless of course you are already a huge winning player, but judging from you post, I think you are someone who isn't where they want/need to be as a player.Good luck!!!

I embrace new ideas and theories, I just don't believe I will ever stray from playing tighter as opposed to looser....in the long run/general sense. That is something, overall, that I believe is more profitable. Its not to say I don't adapt to a table or throw unorthodox moves at an opponent or whatever it takes.I think my bigger problem, at this stage in bankroll at least, is that my belief of image setting plays too big a part in my game. Sometimes I put too much thought into what my opponent thinks I hold when they're multi-tabling or watching a football game or whatever, whereas in the higher games, they are probably paying attention a little more. Hence, I get too cute with things sometimes. But its definitely not, "I must play something this way" every time. I adapt. I learn.Edit: I'm straying off topic now, and I apologize...All this talk has me thinking about driving to foxwoods or turning stone tonight? Anyone else playing? Know any tourny schedules?

[Mercury69 3]

No offense OP, but if you are unable/unwilling to embrace new ideas/theory's, you will NEVER EVER EVER GET BETTER!!! If u have ideas in your mind that u have devoloped and are unwilling to change them it's impossible to improve. Unless of course you are already a huge winning player, but judging from you post, I think you are someone who isn't where they want/need to be as a player.Good luck!!!

I agree with both statements, but it's necessary for one ot expand one's knowledge and experience base. Before I read any books, I was doing better than I am now, but I also know that I'm a better player now. It's really a matter of growing, adapting and working with the knowledge you gain over the longterm. Over the shortterm, you'll need to pick up as many signals as you can detect regarding the current hand: position, betting, stack size, any kind of pattern or indication that makes you try to guess what will happen. Understanding instinct, trusting your reads and quick calculations will help you with the short time frames you are given in online poker. Oh, and the TAG to LAG bar rises and falls dependant on the type of tourney you're playing and the BR you have. 3$ rebuy? LAAAAAAAAAG! 50$ freezeout? TAAAAAAAAAG. For me, at least.Good luck!

[PrtyPSux 0]

Ive seen apestyles in action. Played against him actually. Hes a friggin maniac. I guess his strategy works well against really tight/bad players, but it doesnt work against anyone who knows what they are doing. (he tried bluffing me like 5 times in an UB tournament around the bubble/ at the FT) Naturally I punished him each time

short sample size....he'll destroy you.no offense.

[GetSprung 0]

short sample size....he'll destroy you.no offense.

Destroy is putting it nicely. I had the pleasure of watching him and Waco at the same table after I busted out of the 300k on Tilt a few weeks back. It's funny because people would type in the chat that they thought apestyles was a maniac and would bust soon and it seemingly put players on tilt the way he was reshoving a few times an orbit. If apestyles gets a stack and is playing his game he'll punish even the best players, I'm in awe of his big stack play late in large field tourneys.

[PrtyPSux 0]

and i don't really agree with most of the "great players" that have been listed

I guess I shouldn't have added the "these are the players I respect" part, cuz I don't respect some as far as there game is concerned. I just listed some players that have results and play different styles. thats a bold statement though, based on some of their records alone most of them prove to be great players regardless of what anyone thinks about their game. Bax, I think I outplay him a lot of the time when I'm at his table, but he has a much better understanding of tournaments than I do...which makes him better at MTT's than me. Roothlus has a 90% + ROI in the SUPER long run, he's got one of the best records in online tourneys... and well, maybe you haven't seen Imsolucky play, but IMO he's the best overall tourney player on that list.

[the_stein 0]

I find the best way to beating most online tournaments is to approach it in segments, I constantly switch my play from TAG to LAG and even have periods of LAP and TAP