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Quiz Question #25


What is the Play?  

793 members have voted

  1. 1. What is the best play?

    • Check
      229
    • Go All in
      70
    • Bet 33% of the pot
      118
    • Bet 50% of the pot
      376


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I prefer check/calling to check raising. We have to assume that Mizrachi is going to slowdown on the river without a monster, but there is a good chance he bets the turn with a weaker hand than ours. We really do not want a big pot oop. I think check raising will unnecessarily bloat the pot to protect against only 2-5 outs.

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I'm not going to read all the responses (read the first page or so), but I picked check. The board is about as draw-free as it could be, and there's a great chance that the Grinder's just floating us on the flop. If we check, I think a bet from him to steal is almost mandatory. If he has a pair that's not a king, he'll be worried about letting us chase six outs, and a king will bet for value. I really doubt the turn will go check-check. Having stack sizes here would help a lot however. Also, I would have made a larger C-bet on the flop since we're looking to get some chips in with what is likely the best hand here.

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Well, Daniel got called when he bet at the flop with top pair, and there is no real draw on the flop, so I think you have to give the Grinder credit for some sort of hand. Probably a Kx type of hand where x = T, J, Q, K, or A. With five players, you defend the BB with a longer list of hands, and Kx where x is 7,8,9 is looking good.With AA, AK, KK, QQ I think there would have been more action preflop, especially with five players short-handed, but I suppose at that level any action is possible, even slowplaying a high pair. One thing is that he has 'some sort of a hand'. He could also have some sort of pp and read Daniel for 'no King' since five-handed, you can rasie with a pretty broad range of hands.I though that with AK Mizrachi would have raised the bet on the flop, but as the saying goes, "no need to push the wagon when a donkey is doing the pulling." :club: (I am not calling DN a donkey, that is just the saying) The call on the flop bet is an alarm bell. What Mizrachi is saying is "Daniel, you could be betting with Kx and I am calling you because I either have a better hand, or think I will have one shortly." Mizrachi may also see the bet on the flop as a normal continuation bet by Daniel, and decided to play his 99, TT, JJ or other hand giving him second pair. This is why it is important to fire some sort of a bet at the turn, which puts Mizrachi to the decision in case he does not have anything concrete.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to slow down, because the kicker is just not that great. Another 33% of the pot is an aggressive approach to the pot but something smells here: either outkicked or a set.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to really wonder about how good KJ is in this situation. The fact Mizrachi is just calling seems to imply KQ, but that is just a guess.I voted for a 33% of the pot bet and will be fascinated by the answer when it surfaces.Being totally wrong and learning the correct evaluation is a valuable way to learn, so right or wrong: there you go.

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Maybe he is calling to take the pot away later? He is on the button after all. I utilize this every so often, and I have seen the Grinder do it a couple times on WPT season 3 when he went back to back #2 and then winner. I think a 50% bet would effectively kill this plan of his. Since we are both chip leaders, if he re-raises then I muck it. Before that I think we are safe to do a 50% bet.

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Well, Daniel got called when he bet at the flop with top pair, and there is no real draw on the flop, so I think you have to give the Grinder credit for some sort of hand. Probably a Kx type of hand where x = T, J, Q, K, or A. With five players, you defend the BB with a longer list of hands, and Kx where x is 7,8,9 is looking good.With AA, AK, KK, QQ I think there would have been more action preflop, especially with five players short-handed, but I suppose at that level any action is possible, even slowplaying a high pair. One thing is that he has 'some sort of a hand'. He could also have some sort of pp and read Daniel for 'no King' since five-handed, you can rasie with a pretty broad range of hands.I though that with AK Mizrachi would have raised the bet on the flop, but as the saying goes, "no need to push the wagon when a donkey is doing the pulling." :club: (I am not calling DN a donkey, that is just the saying) The call on the flop bet is an alarm bell. What Mizrachi is saying is "Daniel, you could be betting with Kx and I am calling you because I either have a better hand, or think I will have one shortly." Mizrachi may also see the bet on the flop as a normal continuation bet by Daniel, and decided to play his 99, TT, JJ or other hand giving him second pair. This is why it is important to fire some sort of a bet at the turn, which puts Mizrachi to the decision in case he does not have anything concrete.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to slow down, because the kicker is just not that great. Another 33% of the pot is an aggressive approach to the pot but something smells here: either outkicked or a set.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to really wonder about how good KJ is in this situation. The fact Mizrachi is just calling seems to imply KQ, but that is just a guess.I voted for a 33% of the pot bet and will be fascinated by the answer when it surfaces.Being totally wrong and learning the correct evaluation is a valuable way to learn, so right or wrong: there you go.
i think grinder is floating the flop for info a LOT more often than he's representing a real hand. we're ahead a lot more often here than we're behind, IMHO. the question becomes how do we get a weaker hand to get the most money in on the turn (and if possible, fish out the few times we are beat relatively cheaply).
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Before thinking of my options, I'd like to think of what The Grinder actually may have, and only then come up with the best play.First he called a raise pre-flop. What could he have called with? A middle pocket pair, or K-Q, or even A-J or A-10 suited. I don't think he would only call with a high pocket pair, or A-K or even A-Q, he would probably reraise, he doesnt want to play the other chip leader heads up, and might be happy to not lose a lot of chips on this hand, and just force me out.On the flop, he called. I think this eliminates the chances we are against a hand like A-10 or A-J, as he would have probably thrown those away on the flop. Now, what does he think we have? We raised pre-flop, and then raised again on the flop. I think it is obvious that the least we have here is J-J, Q-Q, or a king with a decent kicker. So would he call with a mid pocket pair? definetely not! This leaves us with only 2 possibilities that he may have in his hand. K-Q or he's made a set, and trying to trap us. But he does have us beat right here!The right action here I would say is check/fold.Not because of the analysis I made before, I am not positive about my analysis, and actually I might have him beat, but the analysis makes sense to me, and more importantly, I'm amongst the chipleaders, I dont want to lose many chips and probably the tournament with a marginal hand. So what if he takes it down and I have a better hand!! I think I better save my chips for a later confrontation, when I have the better of it for sure. Don't risk your chips on a marginal situation..

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I think he called our preflop raise with a pair, namely 44 or 22. I would not entirely rule out KK either.The board is pretty safe for his set, so his smooth call on the flop seems like he's giving you a chance to hit something.On the turn this is a check/fold for me.However, i think it is also a possibility he may have nothing. Even so it is still a check, he probably isn't going to call unless he has you beat.

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You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?
Your opponent made a Bluff-call on the flop just to bluff you on a turn. You should encourage him to do so and bet 33% of the pot so he can re-raise quickly you and then say all in and sit back in your chair. If he thinks about calling, just say to him that he propably has you beat but you had to try :club: That should make his decision making even harder if the 8 helped him (maybe he was in with 78s).
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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

50% of the pot, the reasoning is in the way the grinder plays. If he has chips he likes to make alot of semibluffs and plays at pots for small amounts to keep he LAG image, but by betting 50% of the pot with the blind levels as high as they are at final tables you take that play away, where as I think he will be tempted to raise 1/3 of the pot. Also a check here is a very dangerous move as he he will likely make a play at this pot, almost regardless of what we have. What it does do is keep the pot small which is what you want to do with top pair and decent kicker, but still no way is it better than finding out where we are at. Also the all in bet is dumb, instead of finding out where we are in the hand with say 50% of the pot we now have most of our chips on the line, that just dumb.

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You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?
after much debate and concern about making a fool of myself i have decided to have a stab at a reponsethe fact that the grinder is on the button, opens up his range of starting hands a little, with the blinds still to act after him (preflop) he would be likely to re-raise with a big hand like AK or AA i could see him just calling with KQ, 44, 45 sooted, or even 42 sooted. (by the way isnt his favourite hand 44??) these hands are all relevant to the flop, but a pocket pair ranging from 77 to JJ is also a strong possibilty.i think with position he would raise on the flop with AK KQ or a pocket pair from 77 to JJ and even 45 sooted if he felt you didnt have a Khe could be flat calling for 2 reasons, 1. he may have missed the flop all together and has called to see if by calling he can slow you down on the turn and if you check try and take it away with a bet on the turn2. he also could be calling with a monster like 3 of a kind 4's and looking to raise you on the turneither way you must bet the turn in my opinion but perhaps just 33% of the pot as not to commit to many more chips with a marginal hand, this will make him think twice if his original intention was to bluff, but if he comes over the top i think i would fold and look for a better spotbeing out of position in this case is a major problem
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You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you.The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?
What's my range been? How much $ do I have in relation to the pot? How much did I raise PF? Was it enough to kick out 22 and 44? I'm likewise guessing it was enough to kick out anything that hits two pair on this flop. Grinder probably doesn't have a PP -- he surely would have tested us..The only hand that makes sense for the Grinder to have: • 56 • KQ/KJ/KTI'm not sure I want to get married to KK jack kicker for my WPT life. But we are short-handed, with (I assume) blind increases coming.If I have enough chips, I define the hand now, at the turn: I overbet the pot to let him know I have a K. If he calls, I'm in trouble if a danger card peels. OR just trouble period, right now. Also, if he calls, I try to control the action and damage on the river (almost impossible). In the future, I try to remember that KJ is a trouble hand.
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  • 3 weeks later...
Trying to think of the possible hands we could put him on here, I'd say it's fair to say that the grinder probably wouldn't just call from the button with K4, K2, or K8. Since from the button he would also probably re-raise with AK to weed out the SB and BB, we can eliminate AK as well. AA and KK are possibilities since he could have been trapping, and there was nothing too scary on the flop to halt that strategy. 88 isn't much of a possibility either, since it's probable that he would have played that on the flop. 44 or 22 are the other hands he could have since they would not have been bad calls on a LP raiser. Either way, his smooth calling pre-flop and on the flop are warning signs that something is fishy here. He either hit trips or has rolled Aces over our Kings. Betting here will surely result in a re-raise from The Grinder and the only way to win the hand at this point would be to re-raise and hope he's stealing with rags, which of course is unlikely. Furthermore, since we raised pre-flop and the flop doesn't even have a flush draw on it, it's safe to say that The Grinder realizes we are betting Kings. Easy check/fold here.
I agree -- something is fishy here. Either he's trapping or he's reacting to having been pushed around in the past. Given his position, trapping is the stronger possibility, but there are other clues. Some important questions -- 1. he's the grinder, who does he think you are? and 2. what's the chip situation relative to the blinds? If his chips are low then your play is check/fold -- he's not likely to risk the tournament trying to catch a bluff. If he thinks that you're solid and your chips are good, then it's a trap and again, Check/fold is right; if he thinks you're been aggressive and your chips are low, then check and if he raises put him on all in. If you've been aggressive and chips are high, then you're on a guess as to what's going on.
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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I check and see what he does. He will probably bet, and it will leave control of the pot really up to me. I can call and see the river with not being comitted yet having top pair, raise to put him to the test, or fold if I really think he has me beat, which I doubt. Probably end up check raising the turn and check the river to him to see where he's doing. Of course I'm no DN and probably don't have the right answer... which would be interesting

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would bet 50% of the pot.A very likely situation is that the button thinks Daniel has made a continuation bet on the flop after his pre-flop aggression and has bluff-called him with the hope that he'll be able to take it away on the turn.The unthreateing board imo would make the button think that Daniel is bluffing because he think Daniel thinks he could have missed and will fold.As there are no draws, and the turn doesn't help, i would bet again.

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  • 8 months later...

Checking is definitely out of the question....lets not bet the flop and check the turn now....The idea here is to make your opponenet PAY and PAY HARD to see the river....you need to fight hard to win a pot like this and the only way to do it is with a sizeable bet....But what about going all in? OOPS....that would be a mistake....too easy to get trapped here with a Jack for a kicker....your opponent could have KQ or the big slick....You need to figure out just how strong his hand is by pressing 50% of the pot....if you get raised then you are probably in a bit of trouble here....if you get called then the odds are you have the better hand

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You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?
The flop call leads me to believe we could be behind in the hand. The first step would be to decide on a possible range of hands. Possible hands: AK, KQ, 44, 22, 35, these are the hands I feel are most likely to lead to a flop call. The majority of these possibilities have us beat. The 8 on the turn doesn't help my hand. I think a check on the turn is a good idea. If he bets we can safely fold with a minimal loss and if he checks we get to see the river. Checking here allows us to avoid a big pot late in the tournament. Even if we are ahead here the situation is unclear and we are out of position.
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  • 3 weeks later...

i think it is a good spot for a check call. you are either way ahead or way behind int this spot and given the few times i have seen the grinder on tv at wpt final tables he is always looking to steal pots. i think check call turn and check call river is the best play here to get the most value out of your hand he fires multi barrel bluffs alot and if we bet he cant call he can push and that makes for a tough decision. i really like check calling here.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I shove and take it down on the turn. Grinder is not someone I was to tangle with post flop.Re: Grinder's flop call, I think he has a piece and called because his odds were too good, but I still think we're ahead. It's higly unlikely he's playing with a better K than ours.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't know much about the Grinder, but whenever I do see him on TV in some form, he is usually hyper-aggressive. With that in mind, he could be on some type of draw, but at the same time he could of also missed it. You have the lead, so I would check to minimize losses. If he bets, you can check-raise him, because you likely have him on a semi-bluff. So check it to see what he does. If he checks, you have him, if he bets, he is protecting his hand. You get more information by checking it seems then by calling.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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