Quiz Question #25

[Acid_Knight 2]

I think that this is a difficult situation and the question is made tougher by us not knowing stack sizes or the blinds. The flat call on the flop could be a set, any middle pair, or just The Grinder playing his position.I think that AK is unlikely, as he probably would've raised preflop against DN's raise to ensure that the blinds folded. KQ is a possibility, but I think that KQ would put in a raise on the flop to better define the hand.The 1/3 pot bet on the flop was cheap enough that his range is still rather large.Since we have a fairly strong hand and are really only legitimately worried about a few hands that are currently beating us (KQ, 22, 44, 88) I would advocate checking here. I'd feel even more strongly about this if the stacks are really deep. Since we're not really that worried about giving him a free card, our check conceals the strength of our hand a little bit and gives us a chance to hopefully learn a little more about his. The deep stacks would allow us to check call or even check raise him if it looks like the best play.Another continuation bet here puts us in a very bad position if he raises because we still have to figure out where he's at and we're most likely going to fold.With deep stacks, I think the correct play is to check and see what develops.

[CiberX 0]

-Check, you want to keep the pot small with top pair, specially against a large stack that could jeopardize your tournament life, its better wait to play bigger pots against the other smaller stacks on the table to knock them out, You can just call a bet on the turn and probably make a value bet on the river if a blank comes controling the size of the pot.

[mk 11]

grinder obv has 42s, his fav hand. k/f

[revhq2646 0]

check, then raise his bluff.If he flopped a set, not much you can do. If the stacks aren't overly deep 5 handed this is a hand I'd be fine getting it all in with on the turn. Being an aggresive played he'd likely reraise AK preflop and the chances of him having K7-10 are greater than the single holding of KQ. If he checks behind, possibly bet half the pot on the river unless an ace comes. Checking the river and trying to induce a bluff isn't too bad either if you know the Grinder to be aggressive.

This is the worst take I have seen. NL is all about trapping and chopping, check raising in this situation is about digging holes for your opponents and then walking into them. Top pair should be the best hand here, but you need to get away from it if it is not. If he raises what 1/2 the pot or more, you are going to have to come over the top of that. Doubling or trippling the size of the pot and the size of your mistake. If he checks behind me I'm even more worried that he has a set and is hoping I will take a stab at the river.

[revhq2646 0]

-Check, you want to keep the pot small with top pair, specially against a large stack that could jeopardize your tournament life, its better wait to play bigger pots against the other smaller stacks on the table to knock them out, You can just call a bet on the turn and probably make a value bet on the river if a blank comes controling the size of the pot.

This is the first decent reason to check here. For me since I don't get to play many final tables on the WPT it is all about what people do in these situations. It seems that there is alot of naked aggression at the final tables and you really don't want to get in a situation where you are opening the door to let someone take a stab at your pot. I've been at small tournament final tables that would let you get by with checking it down from here, but he could still be on a draw or an underpair. I don't think we want those hands getting a free card. If we bet and get called we have more information than if we check and he raises, so that is still my vote. Bet enough to punish the draw 50% of the pot.

[Morpheus 0]

I would think HIS most likely hands are baby cards: 44, 22, 53, 56 something like that. Bet 50% of the pot on the turn and see what he does....

[aasurfer 0]

Daniel i'm not sure who you were saying was "way off" so i guess i'll just be honest and say what i think and hope i don't get made fun of... and if i do hopefully i'll learn something... As a top pro I would assume the Grinder would call a raise from a nobody like me on the button hoping to out play me after the flop with a variety of hands. The flop bet of 1/3rd the pot is in the probe bet range and he could have called planning on stealing the pot if I let up at all or if he made his hand on the turn. While it is possible he concealed a very big hand like AA or AK i believe he would reraise more often than not pre flop.An article I was reading a while back from Erick Lindgren suggested checking the turn in some situations when you are the preflop aggresor in position against an aggresive opponent. In Erick's article he said the value you give up by letting your opponent draw to 5 or less outs is more than compensated for when he thinks your turn check was a sign of weakness and tries to take the pot on the river with a half to pot sized bet.I think this concept can be applied for this hand but with a twist. Instead of checking the turn in position, you're checking out of position... which sucks but bear with me. You know The Grinder is going to bet 50%- the pot when you check to take it from you, which may have been his plan the entire time with no part of the flop... So my play would be to put in a minimum check raise. I believe this is the best play because I'm pretty sure i'm ahead and by checking and inducing his bluff i'm adding huge value to a pot i may have won with a half pot bet on the turn.As my first time at a major final table i would be doing everything in my power to win. Against a top pro like The Grinder i'm going to have to guess sometime to win, and by making this play now I think he'd be a little more wary of entering a pot i raised in the future. Even at the final table the top pros want to play small ball if the blinds allow it and grind you down (no pun intended). By standing up to him on this hand in which i am very likely ahead based on the reasoning of previous posts (AA or AK on the button would usually raise, the only hands to worry about are 22,44,88, or QK) I am sending him a message to focus on the other 4 players and to stay out of my way until we're heads up.Am I on the right track?Phil

[Head_Trauma 0]

I got the Grinder pegged for 53... and my killer read says they're both clubs. Anyone disagree? Don't check and give him a free card to his 8 outer. Bet half the pot to make him overpay for his draw. Laugh when he pairs his 3 on the river and agonizes over a call.

[Nore 0]

Well, its a very diffuse Q. Firstly I don't know stack size, how much the raise and Bet sizeSo actually you want us to guess.. heheHe has not AK, would have raised with KQ on flop. he may have set or AA, or under pair like 88 or 99.. 1010 maybe. any way, we need info. 50% of the pot if that's not to much of our chip size. I think Daniel has this one under control if he played it real, but i would not have gone all in.. Maybe check if i could put him on KQ..I don't what i would have done live, in this situation, but i _THINK_ i would have bet out. But I'm willing to fold. we are easily beat...

[EmOEmU 0]

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.

[Head_Trauma 0]

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.

5c3c!!! obv...

[Nore 0]

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.

But calling on flop is prob just to see what WE will do on flop, and maybe if he has a "bluff-draw".And ok, you check, he bets you call, on river you check, he goes all in, what then?? can you call?No. When you bet on turn, you get info, Call he has us, raise he really has us, fold we got the pot.. :)Thats how i see it..

[dkelloway 0]

First, i would have bet atleast 1/2 pot on the flop .As played I bet 1/2 of the pot b/c you want to play a medium sized pot with your TPGK, if he raises, i'll probably fold. I like betting here because he could be "floating here" or be bluffing with an unimproved pocket pair like 55 or 66 here.

[offset 0]

Check. We are OOP and our hand is only semi-strong. We want to keep the pot small, and a bet will only fold worse hands.

[bonuskiller 0]

Check to him and let him push . Then insta call

[dingas 0]

You guys are all way off..The best play is to open fold. The only hand he can have is the nuts KK. Open folding will let him know that we have a perfect read on his play and give us a huge psychological edge on future hands.

[thapokerdon9 0]

Grinder Also known as: Rounder. A grinder is the same as a rounder. These tend to be semi-professional players that make most of their money playing poker, though they do not make much money. A grinder plays in a similar fashion as a rock. Often, these players can beat lower and mid-stakes games but can not beat or make much money at the higher stakes games.

Also, Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi:I believe Daniel is referring to the latter.

Just so you all know Mizrachi said in an interview I saw that "the grinder" is basically his cash game persona. I dont know if you've ever saw him wearing a shirt or hat that says "Im a Machine" but he says that better describes his tournament style of play. Anyway back to the question I would fire out about half the pot again I think we are ahead in this situation more often than were behind."Hey who's the new kid?"

[JamesBong 0]

Id bet 1/3...- I dont want him to chase, but its better then trapping myself- He doesnt want to come over the top with a bad bluff, so if he does i think hes got a hand- I get to keep the pressure on and if he has a middle pair hes probably going to foldIm not going to check and leave myself open to the big bluff... if I check hes either coming back witha big raise or checking cuz hes on the draw... i dont want eitherTest the waters with a 1/3 bet, keep the pressure up without risking too muchI think hes got pocket 10s right now.Of course, maybe this is why im still struggling at the nickel tables ....

[LooseCannon 0]

The Grinder will bet if you check.If he is ahead, checking is better than betting because you will lose less since he can't raise you.If he has nothing, checking is better than betting because you will induce a bluff since the flop is the sort of flop that is good for calling with nothing planning to bluff on a future street against an opponent who makes a lot of continuation bets.If he has a little something, checking is better than betting because he will probably call you but not raise you if you bet (he might even fold a hand like 99) and bet if you check, so you aren't missing a bet.The only time that you might not like checking is if he has a draw like 65. Of course, if you bet, he might semibluff and raise after picking up the double-gutter and potentially put you in a tough spot.

[goferdug 0]

There is TOO MUCH MISSING information:How much the initital raise was in comparision to stack size (i.e. raise 10k of 2 mil or 20,000);How many chips do you have in comparison to 1/3 of the pot ( pot = 10,000 or 10,000,000 compared to what stack size);How has the Grinder been playing;If we are to assume equal stacks of about 1/10 the pot,MY RED LIGHTS ARE FLASHING!!!!! WHY WOULD HE FLAT CALL A 1/3 POT SIZE BET?????Is he going to try and outplay us or did he flop a MONSTER. THERE S NO DRAW!My instincts would be to now check and see what he does.I wouldnt mind calling with some of my chips, but again not knowing stack sizes, pot sizes, blah blahI DEFINATELY WOULD NOT WANT TO WATCH THE REST OF THE TOURNAMENT FROM THE SIDE LINES CALLING ALL IN WITH TOP PAIR FAIR KICKER

[CiberX 0]

WRU answer

[blakheart 3]

Check/call Our hand is vulnerable and we are out of position. Keeping the pot small here is important. If we bet out he may raise us off of our hand, and we don't want that. We may be giving a free card to A4, A3 etc, but it is more important to not get too invested in Top pair ok kicker. If Grinder checks behind, then we just need a blank to fall on the river. Then we can either check to let Grinder bluff, or value bet the river.If Grinder bets and we call, i think anything is an automatic check on the river.BTW on WPT final tables we can assume that neither player is real deep in chips here. The WPT structure is such that they want it to end in a resonable amount of time.

[11 to 1 0]

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

I've read three of these and gotten them all wrong - but, well, Mizrachi right? (Spelled wrong, I imagine.) Shoot, fold should've been an option. He's calling, he must have nine aces. OK, at least pocket fours, when does he ever call? He doesn't reraise before the flop? He doesn't raise a one-third the pot bet? (I am ALWAYS wrong about these things.) But - sawing this limb right off, I'd assume I was beat here. Real beat without the possibility of raising him off the hand. And why am I playing the other chip leader, anyway? I guess I could make a substantial raise and see if he calls and maybe that would help me confirm my suspicions, but why do I want to give more of my chips to the other chip leader? I'm for checking and hoping for a King on the river, I guess. I'd seriously put him, (not some random player but him) on trips or AA.

[butterknife 0]

Go all in, since the grinder likes to play small ball.

[checkymcfold 0]

a king often raises the flop, right? i don't know much about how grinder plays, but we showed extreme weakness with a 1/3 pot continuation bet on the flop and if we're not raised i'd imagine that means something like 2nd pair good kicker or a pair that beats 2nd pair, or even just a pp. i really think we're good here most of the time.i checkraise a lot of the time, but i know i use that line too often. the other option in my book is to fire out about 1/2 the pot. all i know about MM is that he likes to put the pressure on against weakness, and that's best manipulated by taking very weak (as in standard for weak hands) lines with strong hands. top pair is strong here in a HU situation, and from the preflop action i would assume the only hand he's got that beats us is KQ, which he'd PROBABLY raise on the flop, but i'm not sure about that. i suppose he could have a set, but the best way to fish that out would be a checkraise too, i think.