Why Obsess Over Correct Strategy Online?

[navybuttons 15]

i quit at about page two and a half.but i'm pretty sure that OP is correct that online poker is rigged.i'm just glad it's rigged in my favor. playing heads up SNGs i CONSTANTLY get it all in with the worst hand (it's more fun this way), but somehow i'm a winning player. if anyone knows lee tell him that the check is in the mail.

[chewybarber 0]

Ah, you should want good players to win--Cheating probably does happen, but isn't it more likely that some of your table mates are the cheaters and not the site?Still, I think a good player should usually crush the machine--it isn't like chess, and your opponent isn't Fritz!If you don't know odds, you can bet your opponent does or is using a simple application--I would worry about my opponents more then the site. Oh, and why doesn't anyone get online with something like "I know this site is rigged, I was dealt AA three out of the last five hands, and I won every one of them!"--hehe

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

While playing well is certainly a requirement in live games, and I suppose in high buy in online games as well (though I can't speak from personal experience there), it is no benefit at all in low limit or buy in games online. In fact, I would go so far as to say that playing well is a handicap in these games. I am talking about SNG and MTT under $50 and NLHE ring games below $3/$6. The successful player there is invariably seeing 70-80% of the flops, going all in on draws or with small pairs, and calling raises with any draw. In a live game these are dream opponents. Online these are big winners.My question is - why? It is not just the faster play. Yes we see more bad beats in an hour but we should get lucky more often too. Annonymity may make bad play easier, but should not effect its success. I don't want to believe that the dealing is dishonest online.I have played poker for 30 years. I am successful at modest buy in live games in casinos and small tournaments. I started playing online 4 years ago and tracking my play with PokerOffice. I have tracked my own play and others I see frequently, for many hundreds of thousands hands. Maniacs win and tight aggressive players lose in the long run. They don't just appear to - they actually do.Bottom line:1. Why? and2. Without becoming a maniac, how does a solid live game player adjust online?I don't want to quit playing online, but right now I don't see how to continue.

Online poker is a different beast, and in itself drives me back to live poker. In many aspects, it isn't really poker at all. These maniacs, their wild raises and their all-in pissing contests are one problem.It's much easier to bluff and raise and play aggressively when you're not looking others in the eye and physically moving your chips over the commit line. Plus, it's faster: more hands means more money means bigger loss risk, so some maniacs take advantage of that fear. This is why you see more aggressive play.Also, more simply, betting into more hands means seeing more flops which means more chances of winning. If you're a rock and you bet in, people will back off knowing you have a power hand, meaning a rock's wins are much smaller on average. Loosening your starting hand requirements, so long as you can call the BB or not bet much more than that, gets you into more hands and more chances to hit the flop.Now, if maniacs are preflop betting the pot sky high, this is another issue. But usually, they won't go that far.Play tight, but if you have the nuts or a strong hand in the early going or on the flop, call their bets. If you're not a bluffer, calling their bets will scare them, because they'll think you have something good. They bet high because it works: everyone gets scared, folds and it allows them to steal pots. They usually have nothing, and if the maniac gets called and loses the hand, or one maniac sees another bust out when someone plays sherriff, it usually calms things down. Take control and call them down: it's not like you're winning tournaments anyway with the passive approach. I sure as hell didn't.BTW, one funny thing I remember about online SnG's was when half the table would bust themselves out with preflop all-in bets in the first 4-5 hands. Sure, you're staring a big chip leader right in the face, but half your competition just knocked themselves out.

[Zach6668 513]

In many aspects, it isn't really poker at all.

So what you are saying is that you can't beat the better, aggressive players online?

[Abbaddabba 0]

These are the people who lose at poker.

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

Um, no.What strategy is involved in recklessly betting large and pushing all-in at random? None, really. The best poker player can sherriff-call such bets with a power hand, and get sucked out 2-3 hands into a tournament. Does that mean he sucks? Conversely, does that mean the maniac is a good player? Do you really need to troll by defending maniacs who turn an MTT into Russian Roulette with chips?

[Abbaddabba 0]

No, but given what you've written, i can say with near absolute certainty that you do (suck).

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

Expound, or can it.

[Abbaddabba 0]

It's not a personal insult.Ive sucked in the past.I just was realistic enough about my suckage to play really low until i didnt suck.I still suck relative to most higher stake games.. so i dont play in them.If people are doing things that allow them to win sustainably, then they're doing something right. If you think maniacs are winning, why not be a maniac?But "maniacs" dont win, and there are reasons why. If you cant see why, it's because you dont know what it takes to win.And if you dont know what it takes to win, you shouldnt expect to win.

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

Thank you. Excellent response, and I totally see your point.I agree the OP needs to look at his game and figure out how to combat what irks him. I do too, and so do all of us, even the good ones

[Actuary 3]

abbaddabbadoo can come with the truth like no one else.well played.

[Teffy 0]

While playing well is certainly a requirement in live games, and I suppose in high buy in online games as well (though I can't speak from personal experience there), it is no benefit at all in low limit or buy in games online. In fact, I would go so far as to say that playing well is a handicap in these games. I am talking about SNG and MTT under $50 and NLHE ring games below $3/$6. The successful player there is invariably seeing 70-80% of the flops, going all in on draws or with small pairs, and calling raises with any draw. In a live game these are dream opponents. Online these are big winners.My question is - why? It is not just the faster play. Yes we see more bad beats in an hour but we should get lucky more often too. Annonymity may make bad play easier, but should not effect its success. I don't want to believe that the dealing is dishonest online.I have played poker for 30 years. I am successful at modest buy in live games in casinos and small tournaments. I started playing online 4 years ago and tracking my play with PokerOffice. I have tracked my own play and others I see frequently, for many hundreds of thousands hands. Maniacs win and tight aggressive players lose in the long run. They don't just appear to - they actually do.Bottom line:1. Why? and2. Without becoming a maniac, how does a solid live game player adjust online?I don't want to quit playing online, but right now I don't see how to continue.

Absurd theory, and just simply not true. I mostly play $22 and $33 turbo SNG's (at least a dozen a day 4 days a week over the last year) and have shown a positive ROI by applying the EXACT OPPOSITE principles that you seem to think are prevelant. I have NEVER seen the majority of players playing in the manner you outlined.

[rgold79 0]

It's not a personal insult.Ive sucked in the past.I just was realistic enough about my suckage to play really low until i didnt suck.I still suck relative to most higher stake games.. so i dont play in them.If people are doing things that allow them to win sustainably, then they're doing something right. If you think maniacs are winning, why not be a maniac?But "maniacs" dont win, and there are reasons why. If you cant see why, it's because you dont know what it takes to win.And if you dont know what it takes to win, you shouldnt expect to win.

Head of nail... meet hammer. This is a very perceptive post and I like it. When people complain about those "maniacs" who have so much success online, they're venting. In their heart of hearts they know it isn't true, because if it was they would adopt that style themselves and reap the profits. The astute player (novice or expert) will notice what his successful opponents are doing around him and will incorporate these elements into his own game in order to improve. The player who is unwilling to change anything about how he plays is inevitably doomed to fail.

[trader1499 0]

The only explanation I've ever come up with that no one can refute is the RNGs (?) are geeked toward more "hand confrontation" and more "big hands." By that, I mean the site deals out big hands against big draws more consistently than live cards fall. I know I see big hands open mucked live all the time, because no one even has a draw to call them or chase them down. You don't see that on the internet. Seems like every flop is an action flop. (OK, maybe not that bad, but you get the point.) Anyway, tweaking the RNGs would boost play, add players (because it's exicting) and boost rake. That's a tremendous motive; just tremendous. Further, doing that could probably be pretty well hidden within any statistical analysis of community cards AND/OR hole cards. But I dunno. Lots of smart people out there. Smarter than me. Smarter than you. And there are lots of cheaters out there -- especially in the world of "gambling" and "casinos." For those who think poker is this big, open, honest game now ... read some history. Nearly every big game and every big name player has "cheat" in their history, somewhere, somehow. What do you believe has changed just because you're playing small stakes online poker? I don't immediately discount the possibility that some of these sharps have moved into online poker. And just to be pointed, not many people have ever cared about reputation and regulation when there's enough money on the line. If you disagree with that, you ain't lived. People get killed every day over a few bucks. Tweaking software leaves no bodies.So don't think about the sites being aimed at getting your money via bad play -- they are there to get your money via rake. Think about how they can boost rake. ******Now, this online vs. live thing. ... I can win online when I'm patient enough. Winning online isn't tough at low levels: just multi-table and nutbar. You'll get paid off every night. Fcuk variance. There is no variance when you do that. Period. But Jesus, that's boring and it's not outplaying anyone. It's "out-waiting."That's what I like about the live game. That's why I prefer it. You have a table of living, breathing people to look at and talk to. God, I love some of the conversations I've had playing live poker. You can't get that from an avatar and a chatbox. I love going to Vegas .. you play people from all over the world. It's very cool, baby.And you are forced outplay the live game, vs just out-waiting it.I love the threads that go something like, "Jesus, live players suck." They always come from some online nutbar who can't make a read and won't take a calculated risk. The limited number of hands you see at a live game are a guarantee of action. 20 hands an hour vs. 60/hr on five tables for 300 hands will open up your game a little bit, Scooter, if you're serious about getting a decent return on your money. That doesn't mean online players suck: I've been seriously outplayed online. There are some high quality players online. That doesn't mean live players suck. But I've also seen some seriously skilled play live.It's just different. And I think you can be a winner in one game and not in the other if you don't understand the difference. And I especially get a kick out of all the big posters here posting about their "first" casino experience in one thread, then lecturing players about the live game in another thread. OFMG, folks. Just sayin.

Best post in this thread.Discussion closed.

[Zach6668 513]

Discussion closed.

I don't think you can do that after 50 posts.

[trader1499 0]

No, but given what you've written, i can say with near absolute certainty that you do (suck).

Thank god all the live players, the ones who are really associated with being the best pros, didn't know they sucked compared to online players. Don't listen to these guys Daniel... you might lose your millions if you play online. They can play 4 tables at one time for god sakes man!

[trader1499 0]

I don't think you can do that after 50 posts.

I'm kidding. I just don't want it to sound like a live play vs online play. I like both alot, I just am a loser online. But i really think its mental cause I lose it after winning it after staying too long and when i'm tired. I have won alot of small tournies and placed high in others bigger low stakes MTT's, I just haven't gotten anything big. So I always lose it. I was consistant at building 30 bucks up to over 100 at one sitting and then turning around and losing it only to re deposit the same and lose it. Do you winning players have a goal amount to get to at each sitting and leave no matter what or something? I'm thinking triple should be mine cause I tend to stop playing tight aggressive after I've tripled up.The way I've been doing it in my live games since I just started was going in to the 10 player sitngo. I win and leave. well so far cause I'm 3-0. I was a little mad at my last game, even though i cashed again it was the 3rd spot and it was me going out on my first time being sucked out in the live tourneys. I almost played again, but I was upset and stopped myself from getting in another tourney and losing a 100 bucks just cause I couldn't think straight. Do you guys set limits for yourselves too? or do you just play like 15 hours straight no matter what or something til you are too tired to stay awake. Most my online losses were cause I stayed about 3 hours too long and was falling asleep lol. It makes me make bad decisions

[Zach6668 513]

Online and live are the same game.They utilize the same rules, and the same deck, and so on.The table conditions may be different, but that is true of any poker game, even online across various sites, etc. There are tight games live, and tight games online. You can pick up body tells live, and different tells online.It's the same guy no matter what anyone says.Just get your head right before you play any of it.You are playing for REAL money. There is no excuse for falling asleep at your computer, even though I've been there.

[trader1499 0]

Online and live are the same game.They utilize the same rules, and the same deck, and so on.The table conditions may be different, but that is true of any poker game, even online across various sites, etc. There are tight games live, and tight games online. You can pick up body tells live, and different tells online.It's the same guy no matter what anyone says.Just get your head right before you play any of it.You are playing for REAL money. There is no excuse for falling asleep at your computer, even though I've been there.

I think i was addicted lol even though i was playing with such tiny amounts of money it was everything to me in that 20+2 tourney lol My biggest win in a MTT as far as making it farthest in comparison to entrants..was a darn freeroll. I won a hat for getting 5th place in a poker aces freeroll out of 1200 entrants. I did win the 1st rounds of the freerolls for the ultimate bet freeroll and the fulltilt aussie millions freeroll where 36 winners moved to the 2nd round out of 1800. I've had wins just all worthless. I want the big money! lol. and online is not the same as live. They don't always catch their hand live as they seem to online.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Online and live are the same game.They utilize the same rules, and the same deck, and so on.The table conditions may be different, but that is true of any poker game, even online across various sites, etc. There are tight games live, and tight games online. You can pick up body tells live, and different tells online.It's the same guy no matter what anyone says.Just get your head right before you play any of it.You are playing for REAL money. There is no excuse for falling asleep at your computer, even though I've been there.

With all due respect, it's not even close.

[Zach6668 513]

With all due respect, it's not even close.

I'm not arguing with you over this again, just because you can't beat online games. I play both. I know.

[rgold79 0]

You could make the argument that given all the available tracking software and information at online players' disposal, the advanced online player will have a greater advantage over his opponents than the average fulltime live player. This is even before discussing the question of volume.

[Zach6668 513]

You could make the argument that given all the available tracking software and information at online players' disposal, the advanced online player will have a greater advantage over his opponents than the average fulltime live player. This is even before discussing the question of volume.

It's just a matter of making use of the information available to you. People don't do it live, either.

[TwoFourOffsuit 0]

With all due respect, it's not even close.

I'll add to this... while live and online play is technically the same game, there are two major fundamental differences between the two. 1) For one, live play is often done in the same locales, meaning at worst, you see the same general style of play, and it's likely you'll end up seeing the same players again and again. In any online environment, there are thousands and thousands of different players and every game has a brand new crowd, often leading to games with different styles from game to game. And if you see a player online, you get a read on him, but you'll often never see that player again, so you can't carry your reads over into other games. But you also have the advantage of being able to maintain the same style of play from game to game, since your opposition won't recognize you and adjust to neutralize you. Likewise, in live play, you can carry your knowledge of the opposition into subsequent games... but they also know you and unless you mix up your play, you can be more easily figured out.2) In online play, you only have one real tool for reading players and bluffs: their bets. Sure, a player may take his time making some bets, but that lag can be caused by a number of outside factors, like the internet connection, or maybe the guy's working on something else while playing you, so it's not really a tell much of the time. You can't see your opposition on the internet, so there's no other way to read them. In live play, you also have other players' body language, conversations, personalities, reactions, tics and multiple other tells that factor into your read... tells you simply don't get online.Basically, I see what MtDM's getting at, and Zach's only half right.

[homnig 0]

They don't always catch their hand live as they seem to online.

must be rigged