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Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?


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Wait you missed this part lois..."Now, there's other stuff in the bible (and particularly Leviticus) that Christians generally just tacitly dismiss as kooky. Why are there not campaigns against ordaining pastors who wear cotton/polyester shirts? I'm fairly certain it's because people run the bible teachings through their own moral and logical filters. A lot of people will tell you they don't, but they're being intellectually dishonest."
No, I didn't miss it. I ignored it as pointless. Huge difference. Let's say I used my b.s. filter on that one. Really, cotton/polyester shirts- THAT'S what you bring to the table? "Hey BW Toth, dinner tonite- you took care of the turkey like I told you to, right?" "Sure thing dude I personally baked us a cornish game hen. Eat up, boys." As you can see, it just doesn't cut it.
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or maybe b/c what was important in the historical context of that time is no longer a similar problem...but hey i just used my brain on that one
You know what's sad- the truth is that this is largely a wasted thread, and fascinating as the subject matter is nobody came in with an open mind and few came in with any sort of original thought on the matter, just what they had been taught and what others have told them. I was thinking earlier, why is it that this particular sin is so important- why is it that God is expected to deliver a free ride so to speak? Biblically, it's a sin- we have shown that, both Old and New Testament- if you reject the Bible, so be it, carry on, but if you don't, then you have to just see it as sin. It's a harsh reality that there will be many left standing at the gates, this is a biblically true statement- why is that so hard to accept? I guess what I mean is it compassion for others that drives it or the fact that we would like to hold to our own sin as well?
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O.k. Then explain away what Paul meant when he said "Men with men, working that which is unseemly in the eyes of God." I mean, seriously, give it a shot. what the heck else does it mean, The thing is this- the bible doesn't just say be good. It's quite a bit more involved than that. Thats why he says many will claim to know him and he will say depart from me, ye that work iniquity. So, really, the Bible is "relevant" to anyone who has sinned and fallen short of the glory of god. And, in his own words, if you say you are not a sinner you are a liar and the truth is not in you.
Somehow my post failed to convey its intended meaning to you. So let me restate my points more directly.
  • The Bible says homosexuality is wrong.
  • Attempts to read as otherwise are not interpretations but rationalizations.
  • Accepting the Bible as the literal word of God implies a lot of things that many Christians ignore.
  • It is dishonest to claim to follow the Bible literally but then judge its contents based on your own morals.

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Really, cotton/polyester shirts- THAT'S what you bring to the table? "Hey BW Toth, dinner tonite- you took care of the turkey like I told you to, right?" "Sure thing dude I personally baked us a cornish game hen. Eat up, boys." As you can see, it just doesn't cut it.
I was erroneously assuming a familiarity with this:
19: "You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two kinds of stuff.
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Somehow my post failed to convey its intended meaning to you. So let me restate my points more directly.
  • The Bible says homosexuality is wrong.
  • Attempts to read as otherwise are not interpretations but rationalizations.
  • Accepting the Bible as the literal word of God implies a lot of things that many Christians ignore.
  • It is dishonest to claim to follow the Bible literally but then judge its contents based on your own morals.

Yeah, your post was kind of iffy. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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You know what's sad- the truth is that this is largely a wasted thread, and fascinating as the subject matter is nobody came in with an open mind and few came in with any sort of original thought on the matter, just what they had been taught and what others have told them. I was thinking earlier, why is it that this particular sin is so important- why is it that God is expected to deliver a free ride so to speak? Biblically, it's a sin- we have shown that, both Old and New Testament- if you reject the Bible, so be it, carry on, but if you don't, then you have to just see it as sin. It's a harsh reality that there will be many left standing at the gates, this is a biblically true statement- why is that so hard to accept? I guess what I mean is it compassion for others that drives it or the fact that we would like to hold to our own sin as well?
I agree with this. The truth is that the bible portrays homosexuality as a sin. The problem is everybody on both sides of the coin want to make it more inflated then what it is...Sin is sin. Those who read the bible often know this but like i said earlier see it as a sin they dont struggle with so they jump in this bandwagon. That is wrong. Those who dont read the bible dont seem to understand that sometimes christians though good motives can provide bad examples. Again it is no worse no greater than any other sin. Many people take issue with parts of the bible. Christians generally do b/c that is an issue they struggle with. Nonchristians generally use it to say how bad/stupid God is. Does that about cover everybody?
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You know what's sad- the truth is that this is largely a wasted thread, and fascinating as the subject matter is nobody came in with an open mind and few came in with any sort of original thought on the matter, just what they had been taught and what others have told them. I was thinking earlier, why is it that this particular sin is so important- why is it that God is expected to deliver a free ride so to speak? Biblically, it's a sin- we have shown that, both Old and New Testament- if you reject the Bible, so be it, carry on, but if you don't, then you have to just see it as sin. It's a harsh reality that there will be many left standing at the gates, this is a biblically true statement- why is that so hard to accept? I guess what I mean is it compassion for others that drives it or the fact that we would like to hold to our own sin as well?
the fact you think that using the word reality here is appropriate is cute. long live the deluded and self-righteous.
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I agree with this. The truth is that the bible portrays homosexuality as a sin. The problem is everybody on both sides of the coin want to make it more inflated then what it is...Sin is sin. Those who read the bible often know this but like i said earlier see it as a sin they dont struggle with so they jump in this bandwagon. That is wrong. Those who dont read the bible dont seem to understand that sometimes christians though good motives can provide bad examples. Again it is no worse no greater than any other sin. Many people take issue with parts of the bible. Christians generally do b/c that is an issue they struggle with. Nonchristians generally use it to say how bad/stupid God is. Does that about cover everybody?
Claaasic mischaracterization. I don't think God is stupid; I just think many people who believe in God act very, very stupid because of that belief. I'm not saying you're stupid for believing in God. But I DO think if you choose homosexuals as the people to single out and demonize publicly, you're stupid. I think if you voted for a ban on gay marriage you're stupid. I think if you believe a man who loves another man in a monogomous relationship is somehow a greater sinner than an unfaithful heterosexual married man, you're stupid. I think if you choose to use the bible as a lever to condemn the behavior of certain individuals (like homosexuals), but ignore other parts of it because it's inconvenient, you're at least being incredibly dishonest, and probably stupid.I'm an atheist. I have no problem with people who believe in God. I just have a problem with people who use their belief in God as a rationale for raising themselves to a plateau above others. Religion- belief in God- is supposed to be a relationship based on love, for your God and your brothers under God. But too often it's turned into a perversion, a cloak from behind which people throw stones and claim asylum.Wang
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Claaasic mischaracterization. I don't think God is stupid; I just think many people who believe in God act very, very stupid because of that belief. I'm not saying you're stupid for believing in God. But I DO think if you choose homosexuals as the people to single out and demonize publicly, you're stupid. I think if you voted for a ban on gay marriage you're stupid. I think if you believe a man who loves another man in a monogomous relationship is somehow a greater sinner than an unfaithful heterosexual married man, you're stupid. I think if you choose to use the bible as a lever to condemn the behavior of certain individuals (like homosexuals), but ignore other parts of it because it's inconvenient, you're at least being incredibly dishonest, and probably stupid.I'm an atheist. I have no problem with people who believe in God. I just have a problem with people who use their belief in God as a rationale for raising themselves to a plateau above others. Religion- belief in God- is supposed to be a relationship based on love, for your God and your brothers under God. But too often it's turned into a perversion, a cloak from behind which people throw stones and claim asylum.Wang
except your doing what ur tellin us christians do arent you? Actually nobody on this board has yet to single out homosexual activity...DN asked so we gave as biblical evidence why we believe what we believe...that it is a sin...does that mean we hate homosexuals? No..my uncle is gay and thats fine...does it mean we are mean to them? of course not...does it change what we view as a sin? nope
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the fact you think that using the word reality here is appropriate is cute. long live the deluded and self-righteous.
The reality assumeing you believe in the bible- maybe you missed the part where I said if you didn't, carry on. Oh, well. I attempted to direct it to christians.
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Claaasic mischaracterization. I don't think God is stupid; I just think many people who believe in God act very, very stupid because of that belief. I'm not saying you're stupid for believing in God. But I DO think if you choose homosexuals as the people to single out and demonize publicly, you're stupid. I think if you voted for a ban on gay marriage you're stupid. I think if you believe a man who loves another man in a monogomous relationship is somehow a greater sinner than an unfaithful heterosexual married man, you're stupid. I think if you choose to use the bible as a lever to condemn the behavior of certain individuals (like homosexuals), but ignore other parts of it because it's inconvenient, you're at least being incredibly dishonest, and probably stupid.I'm an atheist. I have no problem with people who believe in God. I just have a problem with people who use their belief in God as a rationale for raising themselves to a plateau above others. Religion- belief in God- is supposed to be a relationship based on love, for your God and your brothers under God. But too often it's turned into a perversion, a cloak from behind which people throw stones and claim asylum.Wang
Wang- show me where anyone besides CUIN4YEARSDN elevated themselves above homosexuals. I don't believe anyone else has done that. Incidentally, I agree with everything you said, and agree that many do this- I just think that in this particular thread the for the most part we have attempted to deliver the thought process that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.
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Flack_attack said:
And if homosexuality is innate, why would God allow people to be condemned for just acting how they naturally are?

Sin is in the world because we rejected God. God didn't want the world to be like this.

Quote
Are some people just destined to be condemned?

yes. Romans 9.

Loismustdie said:
Now I want to say this- my issue is strictly this- the bible clearly says that people that commit gay acts will be judged for them, and there is no way around that. I personally have a few gay friends and love them very much, but it is what it is and really it's no different then any other sin. Any sin will keep you out of heaven,so we could/should judge a habitual liar or a whoremonger just the same, in that we don't judge at all. That is, as always, up to God. I think that an argument could be made by science for all kinds of things- why a person who has multiple personalities who doesn't realize what each one is doing should be exempt from the rules for example, but all we can do is go by whats given to us, and it's clear as gay, so to speak.

QFT

BWToth said:
Wait you missed this part lois..."Now, there's other stuff in the bible (and particularly Leviticus) that Christians generally just tacitly dismiss as kooky. Why are there not campaigns against ordaining pastors who wear cotton/polyester shirts? I'm fairly certain it's because people run the bible teachings through their own moral and logical filters. A lot of people will tell you they don't, but they're being intellectually dishonest."

Toth, I understand that you are trying to say that Christians are hypocrites.... but the fact is, you just don't understand how Jesus fulfilled the Law. We are not under Old Testament law anymore, and are free from 'kooky stuff' like not being able to get tattoos or wear cotton blended shirts. (Lev. 19:28) Many people DO run BiblicalĀ teachings through their own moral and logical filters, like the OP, and that is unfortunate.

Loismustdie said:
why is it that this particular sin is so important- why is it that God is expected to deliver a free ride so to speak? Biblically, it's a sin- we have shown that, both Old and New Testament- if you reject the Bible, so be it, carry on, but if you don't, then you have to just see it as sin.

You earn another QFT here.

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Somehow my post failed to convey its intended meaning to you. So let me restate my points more directly.
  • The Bible says homosexuality is wrong.
  • Attempts to read as otherwise are not interpretations but rationalizations.
  • Accepting the Bible as the literal word of God implies a lot of things that many Christians ignore.
  • It is dishonest to claim to follow the Bible literally but then judge its contents based on your own morals.

I think many 'Christians' that don't want to believe certain aspects of the Bible decide that the Bible isn't literal. It's an easy way 'off the hook'.
But I DO think if you choose homosexuals as the people to single out and demonize publicly, you're stupid.
I agree.
I think if you voted for a ban on gay marriage you're stupid.
IF someone wants their world view represented in government, I think that they should vote their morals. In the case of voting for a law instead of a representative... I think that if a person feels strongly that the family unit is the #1 factor in maintaining a strong country AND that person feels that a 'strong family' consists of a man/woman/children... that they should vote that way as well. After all, that's what voting is... letting people mold a country into something with whose values they can agree.
I think if you believe a man who loves another man in a monogomous relationship is somehow a greater sinner than an unfaithful heterosexual married man, you're stupid.
This view is UNBIBLICAL. No Christians should believe this.
I think if you choose to use the bible as a lever to condemn the behavior of certain individuals (like homosexuals), but ignore other parts of it because it's inconvenient, you're at least being incredibly dishonest, and probably stupid.
We are in heavy agreement on this part.
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IF someone wants their world view represented in government, I think that they should vote their morals. In the case of voting for a law instead of a representative... I think that if a person feels strongly that the family unit is the #1 factor in maintaining a strong country AND that person feels that a 'strong family' consists of a man/woman/children... that they should vote that way as well. After all, that's what voting is... letting people mold a country into something with whose values they can agree.
Let me sway just a bit off-topic here.We have a social contract in the US called the "Constitution."While it is often misinterpreted and added to when there's really nothing there (our founders did not cover the abortion issue), as citizens, it's our duty to uphold the Constitution or amend it using the correct methods. When the US was founded, self-determination was the goal.It worked pretty well.When the market crashed in the 1930's, the gov stepped in. The gov stepped in a lot more because we had two (3) world wars to talk about.The government got into our lives more and more, and now it thinks (as a function of the people) that it can/is able to socially legislate. We really shouldn't do that. In short:Voting for "families" while disregarding the Constitution is a breach of contract and no good for our economic well-being. Voting pretty much any "values", whether it be "economic equality", "affirmative action", etc. is no good for us in the long run either.If you want a major change, you need to amend the Constitution, not skew it or disregard it with your crazy social legislation. Besides, why would God give us free will if we were supposed to legislate against aspects of it that do no harm to anyone?
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except your doing what ur tellin us christians do arent you? Actually nobody on this board has yet to single out homosexual activity...DN asked so we gave as biblical evidence why we believe what we believe...that it is a sin...does that mean we hate homosexuals? No..my uncle is gay and thats fine...does it mean we are mean to them? of course not...does it change what we view as a sin? nope
I wasn't trying to single anyone out here. You guys HAVE done a pretty good job of expressing yourselves without being condescending, judgmental, or ignorant (except CUIN4YEARSDAN, but he can't help it, because he was born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome), but that doesn't change the fact that too many people in the Christian/Religious community pay too much attention to this issue. I can't help but think that anyone who doesn't find it absurd that a significant portion of the American public thinks the issue of homosexuality is somehow salient with respect to American Politics is part of the problem. Frankly, I don't care what most people think about homosexuality. Frankly, I think it's your God-given (haha) right to feel any way you wish about any person (even when I think it's ridiculous). But I do care when the line between "opinion" and "public policy" is crossed. It's hard for me to seriously give a fuck whether I'm being labeled a sinner or not, because I don't believe in God (or sin). And I realize that's not the point of this thread. But I think it's incredibly dishonest and misguided that THIS PARTICULAR issue seems so relevant to so many people when more important parts of the bible seem to be ignored completely by the religious community at large. It reeks of, "Well, not only does the bible say it's wrong, I think it's gross, too, and I just don't like it..."
Wang- show me where anyone besides CUIN4YEARSDN elevated themselves above homosexuals. I don't believe anyone else has done that. Incidentally, I agree with everything you said, and agree that many do this- I just think that in this particular thread the for the most part we have attempted to deliver the thought process that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.
I agree that you've been trying to make that point, but I don't think you live that way or think that way. Like David Niccosson pointed out, there are so many behaviors condemned as sins by the bible that almost EVERYBODY ignores, because they are simply too inconvenient, and are then labeled as "irrelevant." But believing that homosexuality- a foreign act/behavior/lifestyle that most people here can't IMAGINE- is a sin is easy, and is therefore pushed to the forefront of the religious right's discussion of morality today. The Jihad against homosexuals in today's society is sickeningly reminiscent of anti-semitism, racism, and sexism. The majority of people don't like a people/behavior that has no tangible negative effect on their lives, but they crusade against it anyway, simply because they don't like it. Wang
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IF someone wants their world view represented in government, I think that they should vote their morals. In the case of voting for a law instead of a representative... I think that if a person feels strongly that the family unit is the #1 factor in maintaining a strong country AND that person feels that a 'strong family' consists of a man/woman/children... that they should vote that way as well. After all, that's what voting is... letting people mold a country into something with whose values they can agree.
If you believe you are somehow effected when a man and a man get married to the point that they should be banned from doing so, you are stupid. We're in agreement on everything but that, I believe. What if 60% of the population found it offensive when a black man married a white woman? Wouldn't they be stupid if they were SO offended by it that they took steps to make sure black men could NEVER marry white women? Part of life is dealing with things you find distasteful. I fucking hate Christina Aguilera. But I don't hate her so much that I'd ever consider taking steps to force her to stay out of my conciousness, life, area, state, geographic location, etc. I'll just grit my teeth and bear it. That's part of what it means to exist in a pluralistic society. I hate most conservative politics (and am usually offended by it), but I'd never suggest they NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN FOR OFFICE.Wang
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i totally agree.the bibls says that it is a sin, it also says it is a sin to change the bibles words or follow different ideas than what is written in the bible.its not like we can just say "well just for today i dont think killing people is a sin so im going to kill people today". you follow what is written by God in the bible. end of story.
You silly, silly people who keep arguing this point as if the Bible is the word of God. It was written by man. Men have motives and aspirations. And it's not even complete. There are over 30 gospels that have been disregarded. Those 30 gospels were deemed BY MAN to not be God's true words even though they were written by men just as credible as the ones who are accepted. Guess what? None of it is God's true words. None of it was written by the man himself nor was it transcribed to one source by the man himself. Quit saying "God says" cause God hasn't said boo to anyone in anyway that can be corroborated.
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You silly, silly people who keep arguing this point as if the Bible is the word of God. It was written by man. Men have motives and aspirations. And it's not even complete. There are over 30 gospels that have been disregarded. Those 30 gospels were deemed BY MAN to not be God's true words even though they were written by men just as credible as the ones who are accepted. Guess what? None of it is God's true words. None of it was written by the man himself nor was it transcribed to one source by the man himself. Quit saying "God says" cause God hasn't said boo to anyone in anyway that can be corroborated.
A few years ago, God got all hammered at my Halloween party. He wore a sheet over his head, and stole the halo from Jessica's SluttyAngel costume, and both Tim and I (seriously, you can ask him) can say with the utmost confidence that he was running around all night screaming "Boo!" in everyone's face. Seriously, God should just NOT be allowed to drink Jaeger. He's fine when he sticks to beer- or even mixed drinks most of the time- but once he tosses back that first JaegerBomb, oh boy, it's all over. I think that was the night God and what's her name (Mindy? Maxie? Mary?) both blacked out, and woke up naked in her bed with no memory of the previous night. Her boyfriend was pretty pissed about that. They've been together for a long time, and she hasn't even slept with him yet. She denies it, but it's not like she'd know, right? I bet God nailed her.Wang
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The scripture specifically says burning in there lusts towards one another- that's not rape, thats desire to get it on. There is no possible way to get around this scripture. It is as clear and concise as any scripture that condemns a particular sin. Here is a question for you- there are plenty of scriptures that address how men should treat there women, and likewise women there men, all located in the New Testament. Why do you think that the bible doesn't even bother laying perameters for gay relationships? Simple- it doesn't condone them.
The scripture specifically says, the scripture specifically says, the scripture specifically says MY ASS!The scripture has been reinterpreted so many times it rarely even resembles the coptic (which was not even the first incantation but it's the first that we can deal with) translation anymore.There's simply no way in hell to be even a little bit sure what God intended.
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If you believe you are somehow effected when a man and a man get married to the point that they should be banned from doing so, you are stupid. We're in agreement on everything but that, I believe. What if 60% of the population found it offensive when a black man married a white woman? Wouldn't they be stupid if they were SO offended by it that they took steps to make sure black men could NEVER marry white women? Part of life is dealing with things you find distasteful. I fucking hate Christina Aguilera. But I don't hate her so much that I'd ever consider taking steps to force her to stay out of my conciousness, life, area, state, geographic location, etc. I'll just grit my teeth and bear it. That's part of what it means to exist in a pluralistic society. I hate most conservative politics (and am usually offended by it), but I'd never suggest they NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN FOR OFFICE.Wang
it seems to me that this is really what it comes down to in the end. i've yet to hear a convincing argument for why gay marriage is appreciably different from interracial marriage on a societal level--if someone could offer one, i'd appreciate it.
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As far as mortal sin goes,that doesn't exist biblically. That's a man made catholic thing- not one bible scripture backs that up. As far as the menstruating thing goes-gross, and I really don't know. I wouldn't reccomend that, bible or not. I mean, that's just gross, dude. There are scriptures I believe that allude to that, something along the lines of women not being clean during that time, but I really haven't looked into it and to be honest at church, nobodys ever even asked. As far as the brother thing, no. New Testament commends one man for woman, forsakeing all others. Old Testament Law allowed for more than one wife, as we all know.
Now I remember why I don't come to the religion forum.I'll find the door myself. Thanks. You guys turn out the lights when you're done. If you can figure out how the light works, since it's science and all.
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