Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?

[timwakefield 68]

What hateful thing did Cathy say? This is either fake of LT Varval is as uninformed as Daniel. I thank him for his service, but this is a ridiculous letter.

As we've learned not long ago, monetary donations=speech. He donates money to groups who fund gay-to-straight conversion therapy. This is hateful, because it's often not the "patient's" choice, but rather he or she is forced into it by his or her parents. He donates money to groups who teach that homosexuality is a mental disease. This is also hateful. He donates money to a group (The Family Research Council) who have stated that homosexuality should be outlawed and should be a criminal offense. The Southern Poverty Law Center designates them as a hate group.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

As we've learned not long ago, monetary donations=speech. He donates money to groups who fund gay-to-straight conversion therapy. This is hateful, because it's often not the "patient's" choice, but rather he or she is forced into it by his or her parents. He donates money to groups who teach that homosexuality is a mental disease. This is also hateful. He donates money to a group (The Family Research Council) who have stated that homosexuality should be outlawed and should be a criminal offense. The Southern Poverty Law Center designates them as a hate group.

So if all the things you say here are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, which I don't concede, you are fine with Chick-fil-a being denied business licenses because of who they donate their money? The Southern Law Poverty Center has their own bias and bigotry and could just as easily be called a hate group. At the very least millions of americans including myself could care less who the Southern Law Poverty Center calls a hate group.

[timwakefield 68]

So if all the things you say here are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, which I don't concede, you are fine with Chick-fil-a being denied business licenses because of who they donate their money?The Southern Law Poverty Center has their own bias and bigotry and could just as easily be called a hate group. At the very least millions of americans including myself could care less who the Southern Law Poverty Center calls a hate group.

All of the things I said about their donations are objectively true, whether or not you concede. And whether or not you agree with the SPLC that the FMC is a hate group, the FMC has stated that homosexuality should be a criminal offense. That sounds pretty hateful to me.At what point did I suggest that Chick-Fil-A should be denied business licences? Because I'm almost certain it was never.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

The Mayor of Chicago and an alderman have said that Chick-fil-a will be denied permits to expand to Chicago, also San Fransico, and I think Boston. Anyway, have fun reading every quote and policy position on every entity who recieve donations from the places with which you do business. I will pass, and recognize that many people have nuanced positions many of which I probably disagree with(including chick-fil-a), I won't be calling for them to be stripped of their opportunity to participate in civil society.

[brvheart 1,752]

groups who teach that homosexuality is a mental disease.

Isn't it obviously a mental disorder? If it was normal, then humans wouldn't reproduce.paging vb

[brvheart 1,752]

Why?

I would hate to have to do a small amount of work for you, but it's obviously a propaganda piece filled with inaccurate accusations, sandwiched in tons of appeals to authority and other logical fallacies.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Another thing, why would he hire homosexuals if he thought they were criminals? He doesn't have to share or have knowledge of every belief or position of those to whom he donates money.

[timwakefield 68]

The Mayor of Chicago and an alderman have said that Chick-fil-a will be denied permits to expand to Chicago, also San Fransico, and I think Boston. Anyway, have fun reading every quote and policy position on every entity who recieve donations from the places with which you do business. I will pass, and recognize that many people have nuanced positions many of which I probably disagree with(including chick-fil-a), I won't be calling for them to be stripped of their opportunity to participate in civil society.

That's the mayor of Chicago, SF, and Boston, not me. I never called for anybody to be stripped of their opportunity to participate in civil society, although you've twice now said I have. What are you talking about?Also the mayor of Boston openly acknowledged that he has no power to prevent Chick-Fil-A from getting a permit, just that he would not welcome them to his city. I'm pretty sure that's what SF's mayor said too.

[timwakefield 68]

I would hate to have to do a small amount of work for you, but it's obviously a propaganda piece filled with inaccurate accusations, sandwiched in tons of appeals to authority and other logical fallacies.

It's one man's opinions. That's not what propaganda is. And telling me your opinion on it isn't "doing work for me." I can't possibly know your opinions and ideas until you express them.

Another thing, why would he hire homosexuals if he thought they were criminals? He doesn't have to share or have knowledge of every belief or position of those to whom he donates money.

So you're saying he donates money to organizations with whom he doesn't agree or doesn't know what they do? That seems likely.He doesn't have hiring/firing responsibilities at his individual branches. The branch managers do that, and they don't necessarily agree with his moral and political opinions.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

It's one man's opinions. That's not what propaganda is. And telling me your opinion on it isn't "doing work for me." I can't possibly know your opinions and ideas until you express them.So you're saying he donates money to organizations with whom he doesn't agree or doesn't know what they do? That seems likely.He doesn't have hiring/firing responsibilities at his individual branches. The branch managers do that, and they don't necessarily agree with his moral and political opinions.

I am saying he is the one being victimized here. Nothing has been done to one gay person because of his personal beliefs on traditional marriage. You play the money donation game all day long. How many businessmen give to muslim groups who call for the death penalty for gays. You won't find these guys harassed by the media or politicans that are persecuting Cathy. What is your point? Why are you in this thread? You think Cathy is terrible because he donates money to groups which the huff post claims does all kinds of bad things? I think it is slander, and it is laying the groundwork to harass business owners who have Christian beliefs. Even if he thinks gay sex should be outlawed, so what, there are those who think our country should be run like Stalin ran the Soviet Union, and there are those who think we should be under sharia law.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

http://www.nationalr...cers-mark-steynThis says it all.Damn it wakefield where did you go, I have been gone for a while and I want to fight. Start another thread if you are sick of this one. Lets argue about something religious, if not start something in the political forum, lets fight about Obama. Irishguy where are you? Cane?

[timwakefield 68]

I am saying he is the one being victimized here. Nothing has been done to one gay person because of his personal beliefs on traditional marriage. You play the money donation game all day long. How many businessmen give to muslim groups who call for the death penalty for gays. You won't find these guys harassed by the media or politicans that are persecuting Cathy.What is your point? Why are you in this thread? You think Cathy is terrible because he donates money to groups which the huff post claims does all kinds of bad things? I think it is slander, and it is laying the groundwork to harass business owners who have Christian beliefs. Even if he thinks gay sex should be outlawed, so what, there are those who think our country should be run like Stalin ran the Soviet Union, and there are those who think we should be under sharia law.

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make by asking me why I'm in this thread, and then in your very next post begging for me to debate with you. I'm in this thread because whatshisname made a ludicrous post last page, and then you started arguing with me. I don't know what you mean that it's slander. How is it slander to disagree with the man? Certainly people have probably said untrue things about him, but most of what's been said is simple disagreement with his beliefs. I don't see this as persecution. I'm not sure you know what persecution means. He made public statements, and those statements have drawn attention to donations he's made. Lots of people disagreed with him and have said so vocally. This is the essence of free speech, not persecution. Are you trying to say it's wrong for people to publicly disagree with him???Bolded: So you're saying that it's ok to have a moronic opinion on something because other people have even more moronic opinions about other things? I fail to see the logic there.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Yes, sorry I guess we needed to narrow the focus. I started in the thread responding to Daniel's rant. Cathy's public comments weren't very inflammatory, in fact gay marriage wasn't even mentioned in the interview. The comments were used by certain politicians to try and keep his business from expanding to their area. I object to mostly to that, and also the role the media played. The media won't be pulling donation lists of Muslim owned businesses. This was a hit job from the beginning, and when it backfired the media tried to ignore it. You may just disagree with his comments, but others went a lot further and equated those who supported chick-fil-a as hating gays, which is what I thought Daniel was trying to do.

[timwakefield 68]

He called supporters of gay marriage "prideful and arrogant." I think it's pretty arrogant of him to think him and his religion should have a say in which adults should be allowed to marry other adults because his ancient book says gayz r bad.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Why do they need to be married? Why does the definition of marriage have to be changed? The supporters of traditional marriage have been called much worse than prideful and arrogant. I can't honestly say whether or not Cathy would support civil unions so gay couples get equality under the law, but I know a lot of people who support traditional marriage would be fine with gay couples entering a civil union, the problem is in changing the definition of marriage for a lot of people, not all, but a lot.

[timwakefield 68]

Why do they need to be married? Why does the definition of marriage have to be changed? The supporters of traditional marriage have been called much worse than prideful and arrogant. I can't honestly say whether or not Cathy would support civil unions so gay couples get equality under the law, but I know a lot of people who support traditional marriage would be fine with gay couples entering a civil union, the problem is in changing the definition of marriage for a lot of people, not all, but a lot.

I don't understand the difference between a "civil union" which affords all of the same legal benefits as a marriage, and a "marriage." Why is the word marriage so important? It's just a word used to describe a circumstance. If that precise circumstance is afforded to civil unions, aren't they essentially marriages? The answer to why they need to be "married" is quite simply so they can be afforded the same legal benefits as married couples, and I suppose so they can show their friends and family and the rest of the world that they're in love and united until death. I fail to see any benefit of a "civil union" which affords all the benefits of marriage as far as preserving the sanctity of the word marriage. The only difference is that it would make gay couples stand out as being somehow less than married.I think it's pretty important to remember that marriage is neither uniquely Christian, uniquely monotheistic, or uniquely religious. A lot of anti-gay-marriage Christians seem to think that marriage is a Christian institution, which is plainly false.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I don't know if it is uniquely religious or not, but it is a sacrament in the Church, and I couldn't speak for every traditional marriage supporter/gay marriage opponent, but the problem that Catholic Church has is that they see the family as the cornerstone of society. The family has taken a big hit due to abortion, contraception, divorce, sexual revolution, and children(the ones not aborted) are the ones effected most. To change the definition of marriage would be to change what is the cornerstone of society. Man and Women committing to each other and their offspring and growing together in complementary way. Man and Man, Woman and Woman is not the same thing, and men and women aren't equally interchangeable parts. Two things the Church really want to protect is traditional marriage, and they would probably also be against same sex couples adopting children.

[timwakefield 68]

Same sex couples can already adopt children. So can single men or single women. The divorce rate is insanely higher than the gay marriage rate would be - why doesn't the Church spend its energy railing against divorce? Or for that matter, pedophilia, a sin many of their own priests have had a major hand in committing?Moreover, if gay couples could unite in civil ceremonies with all the same legal protection and rights as heterosexual couples, they would be committing to each other precisely the same way heterosexual couples do, so again why is it important that the word be different (civil union vs marriage)? You didn't really try to answer that.

[ShakeZuma 585]

I tell you what I don't understand is why all these churches are letting the federal government "define" things for them. I thought churches had the right of separation from the federal government and I don't think I've heard of anybody calling for all churches to marry gays so I'm not sure where that's coming from.also, I'm agreeing with and fully understanding tim's posts in this thread so I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket and attempt to have sex with a woman because apparently all things are possible, cats and dogs living together, etc.

[DJ Vu 176]

Another thing, why would he hire homosexuals if he thought they were criminals?

He doesn't have hiring/firing responsibilities at his individual branches.

Plus it's against the law to discriminate?

[brvheart 1,752]

Plus it's against the law to discriminate?

Is it? I know the list keeps expanding, but I don't think sexual orientation is included in the protected class yet. Of course, I'm asking, so I could be wrong.(Many companies include it voluntarily)

[DJ Vu 176]

Is it? I know the list keeps expanding, but I don't think sexual orientation is included in the protected class yet. Of course, I'm asking, so I could be wrong.(Many companies include it voluntarily)

Apparently it's not a protected class at the federal level, but many states have laws against it: California Colorado Connecticut Hawaii Illinois Iowa Maine Maryland Massachusetts Minnesota Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York Oregon Rhode Island Vermont Washington WisconsinEdit: lol formatting

[brvheart 1,752]

What a surprise! Virginia's not on the list.

[JustDoIt 10]

This is ludicrous. So if somebody says they hate niggers and think that all black people are monkeys and are destroying this country, and also that women are worthless except as homemakers, and that God hates fags and thank God for dead soldiers...and I say Go to hell you closed-minded bigoted brainless twat, I'm a hypocrite? Think about what you're saying. Nobody has a problem with the guy expressing his beliefs. It is his Constitutional right to do so. People have a problem with his beliefs themselves, and have an equal right to criticize them.

Your rhetoric is over the top, you need to tone it down. Your right e very one has their right to express their opinions. But Daniel stepped out there and said that Chick-fil-A was Essentially Anti Gay, which is a blatant lie. And since he had to insert the word Essentially I think he understands he is totally out of line.I have a ton of Gay friends and love them just as much as I love all my friends. Just because I have the belief that marriage should be between a man and woman does not make me anti gay or a person of hate.I was happy about the love Chick-fil-A recieved, and had no problem with the Gay kiss in last week.But I did have a problem with this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8G4jI3VI8U&feature=player_embedded#t=0s

[JustDoIt 10]

Thank you for your service. But no way what transpired last week can be sugar coated. The Democratic Politicians across the nation with their threats definitelyare trying to suppress free speech.