Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?

[jmkiser 0]

I thought this was apropos.

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?

October 2002

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:Dear Dr. Laura:Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.Your devoted fan,Jim

:D :D :) :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :icon_dance:

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

I personally don't think that we have any right to judge an individual such as Hitler, because what he obviously lacked respect for- life- we commit the same sin as well, just in different ways.

This confirms your mental retardation.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

I came upon this discussion late in its development, about 3 hours of reading just to catch up.First i wanted to thank just about everyone for their opinions on either side of the discussion as it solidified my faith in God. The topic, from what i gathered -although it strayed from time to time - was whether or not homosexuality is a sin. If you are not a practicing Christian, than no, its not a sin. I am a Lutheran, and in my eyes yes it clearly is a sin. Do I condemn homo's? No. Do i believe it is genetic? No. The only thing that I saw missing from the Christian discussion of this is the mention of the Fallen Angel. As a Christian, I believe in God, therefore i believe in Satan as well. It has been said, that this Satan guy will attempt any means necessary to tempt us into a life of sin and damnation. Therefore i believe that homosexuality, adultery, murder, rape, cheating, stealing, and lying all equate to temptation. Temptation being a drive to deviate from what has been said to be the path to Heaven. You either defeat temptation or you do not. It is not for me to judge gay/lesbians, I think to each their own. When you attempt to rally support for gay marriage, that is recognized by church and state, thats where i draw the line. Marriage has traditionally been between a man and woman and is primarily a religious ceremony. Very few religions recognize homosexuality as being righteous. What i don't understand is why a gay couple would want to have a ceremony in a church when it essentially goes against what the religion teaches. Why not have a civil union, and be afforded the same rights as a traditionally married couple. Part of me thinks its because they just like to be controversial. A early post had i think BW questioning how someone came to their faith. I don't know if that person responded but I have to say for me that it is a constant struggle. I've been brought up in a religious home. I've also strayed many times from a practicing Christian, to paths that were not so good for me. I've questioned my faith, and nobody has to believe me but every time i do, something happens that makes me believe even more. One story is the time that i was riding with a friend to move him from Minneapollis, Minn. to Omaha, Nebraska. We had gotten plowed the night before, and were pretty well still hammered when we left at 7am. We had gotten an hour outside of Minneapolis and i woke up cuz i had to change the tape in the tape deck. My friend says "Well we are almost there, i've been driving 90mph so it should be less than an hour." I said "cool" and started to doze off again. About that time the tape messed up and i had to attend to it to get it running right. I fixed the problem, only to look up at us veering off the highway onto the gravel shoulder. I yelled my friends name (he apparently fell asleep) and when he opened his eyes he over-corrected massively, sending us into a slide across the highway at 80mph or more. We came across the highway and onto the other shoulder that had a wind row of plowed snow piled on it. We hit that pile sideways and flipped 5 times. I had no seat belt on, and stayed conscious through every impact with the ground. The only thing i could think of saying was "God please make it stop, i can't hold on much longer." I ended up with the truck on its side and my feet on the ground through the drivers side window in a crouch. My friend was nowhere to be found. I first checked to make sure i wasn't missing any limbs and nothing was broken. Then i went looking for J and couldn't find him. Some good samaritans stopped and while i was screaming my friends name, they pointed to where he was and told me not to go over there. He had been thrown clear and was about 75 feet from the truck. To make a long story short, J ended up with every bone in the left side of his face broken, and a fractured arm. I walked with a scratch on my back, and jeans that disentegrated the next day because of the battery acid on them. To me, my survival without grievous injury was nothing short of divine intervention. The cushioning of the impact from the snow helped from a truly violent roll over, but to go around that many times at that speed and remain in the cab through each impact is nothing short of a miracle, and it did nothing but strengthen my faith. Every one has different reasons for what they believe, and it is not up to me to call in to question why they believe what they do, or if it is correct or not. I will however continue to lead my life dictated by my convictions and my beliefs. There was another story, because i still had some learning to do, but i'm trying not to be long-winded. It had to do with a few years after that accident and i decided to do crank one more time with a friend, just for the hell of it. It ended up with me in tears remembering every awful thing that i had done to my family, and others throughout my life. I never did drugs again after that day. Once again, people will argue that it was a chemical reaction with the drug that made me feel what i felt, but not having experienced exactly what i went through at that moment it would be an invalid argument. I feel that once again, God was sending me a message. This time i listened, and although i still lose to temptation, mostly when it comes to women, this second experience to me was nothing short of divine intervention once again. I only illustrated to show Toth, i think, where my religious convictions come from. Once again, i don't feel everyone should believe as I do, nor do i feel that homo's are a scourge that should be wiped from the earth. I do feel, however, that in the eyes of the Lord it is a sin. Its not up to me to judge them, it is up to me to live my life different from them.

[jmkiser 0]

so god is an emotional, life-saving, and anti-drug commercial for ya?

[Heraclitus_V 0]

it's really very simple... there is no god so there is no sin

[BWToth 0]

I came upon this discussion late in its development, about 3 hours of reading just to catch up.First i wanted to thank just about everyone for their opinions on either side of the discussion as it solidified my faith in God. It is not for me to judge gay/lesbians, I think to each their own. To me, my survival without grievous injury was nothing short of divine intervention. The cushioning of the impact from the snow helped from a truly violent roll over, but to go around that many times at that speed and remain in the cab through each impact is nothing short of a miracle, and it did nothing but strengthen my faith.

Ok, So I have two main questions to ask then,You feel that you should not judge gay and lesbians, 'to each their own'. How do you feel about muderers? 'to each their own'? If you feel homsexuality is a sin just like murder is a sin then it seems you can't refrain from condemning one, and condemn the other. Unless of course you feel murderers should be able to kill whomever they want and then God can deal with them later, if you do feel that way..at least it would be consistent.Secondly, With regard to the car accident, would you also call it divine intervention that your friend was not so lucky as you? Why did 'god' cause you to come out reletively unharmed while your friend was severly injured? What makes you more 'important' or 'better' than your friend that you deserved NOT to be hurt while he did? If anything that accident would make me LOSE faith in a god and feel extremely guilty and that it was not fair that someone I was kept safe while at the same time my friend was not. What kind of God allows that to happen? Seems more like a VERY lucky happenstance where for whatever reason you 'bounced' the right way, and your friend 'bounced' the wrong. So I suppose my question would be, how does your faith play into the other side of this scenario with your friend getting severly injured?

[Loismustdie 0]

This confirms your mental retardation.

I am relatively sure that statement was connected to a line of thought that actually had a conversation with roughly 3 people in it. It was relatively deep, involved, and obviously way over your head. I understand the urge to get upset at things you don't understand, I won't hold it against you. Thanks for adding to the discussion, though, it was very informative. I am sure we all received something from your bit of wisdom.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

In response to Kiser, who seems to think that my personal life experiences are a commercial, I only used 2 examples in my life as a basis for my faith. I don't know why i was spared, Toth, and to be honest...I'm not so sure that my friend wasn't a recipient of divine intervention as well. By all rights we should have been killed in that particular accident. First off, we slid across 2 lanes of oncoming traffic, i specifically remember looking out the passenger window and seeing semi's very close to us. Secondly if my friend had perished in the wreck, i wouldn't have written about it as a faith strengthening life experience. Some (non-faith based) will say, its just the way the ball bounced. I think of it differently. What it comes down to is the fact that I was raised in a religious family, sometimes i questioned things just as you, why would God allow that to happen? The only answer i can give without quoting scripture is what I personally feel. I feel as though God (much as a parent) does not directly influence your behavior, i think that he only guides you and ultimately it is up to you to decide how you proceed. The old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but ya can't make them drink.", comes to mind. To those that don't believe in God or sin, none of what i'm saying would make sense, because they haven't been touched by faith in their life. If you are of faith, then you completely understand what i'm talking about. Although i don't believe that God overtly influences your actions, i think that he does post billboards as you drive down the highway of life, and they can either make you ponder them and consider them valid, or you can completely disregard them. The two instances i wrote about are only the most profound in a long list of billboards that I pertain to God, and faith. Now about murderers, it is a sin to murder as well. It isn't however my job to condemn a murderer. In this country and other countries there is a court system in place to remove these offenders from the streets. If there was no court system, i'm pretty sure that murderers would be dealt with old school. This is kind of leading to the capital punishment issue, which to be honest, i'm not sure what the right answer is with that. Actually i do, since the courts incarcerate murderers, they are removed from the general population. The government imposes the sentence since it is an infraction of the laws governing this state. Said murderer will have to serve his time, and when he passes on, ultimately settle with God. Homosexuality is not governed by the laws of the state. Therefore, although it is a sin in God's eyes where all sin is equal, there is no social consequence for leading the life. Other than the discrimination and other trials that gay people endure. In both cases, I don't know what the final outcome for either would be, so i cannot be possibly condemning either of them. That would be passing judgement, and thats left to God, and their day of reckoning. I just know what kind of life God intended me to live, and I will do my best to live in that fashion. And when there is a person that is open to the possibility of God, I will share my experiences or pass the word in a sense, and leave it at that. What i believe and have faith in is mine, right or wrong, I don't expect everyone to share the same view. I will however support those that have the same opinion and beliefs. I saw someone on this post being flamed as a bigot, who obviously has strong moral and religious values and just wanted to raise their children in an environment that nurtured their beliefs. I didn't post to change anyone's mind about their particular beliefs but only to support someone that shared the values I have. I think it was Lois, that was gettin railed. Although, I don't recall every post after the lengthy read to catch up, everything they posted I agreed with.

[jmkiser 0]

You say that you were supposed to be killed in that accident? People also aren't supposed to lose to one-outers either, but it happens. You have to know that you can't credit the existence of a supernatural being just because you have observed a bunch of things that you would consider miraculous.This is of no offense, but I've heard a million cases just like yours. Apparently, car accidents aren't as dangerous as everyone thinks because God is deciding to save people left and right.Also, to claim that I don't understand what you're saying because I'm not a "believer" is a crack pot theory, too. I once was a "believer", too, and trust me, it doesn't take belief in God to see how Christians got to the twisted theories that they believe in."I just know what kind of life God intended me to live, and I will do my best to live in that fashion."Oh? You've got God's personal cell number? Or how about the fact that you already know what life you should be living and that you can continue to do your best to live in that fashion without adding third parties? Since you're a believer, I can't expect you to understand this... (sw, kind of) but you'll find life much more meaningful once you shed the invisible buddy Jesus watching over your shoulders.Just like Toth pointed out, why is God so wonderful because he's saving your butt when he allows horrific accidents to happen to other people everyday? Religious people can be extremely selfish.Again, this is where this belief of homosexuality being a sin comes into problem. Religious people can't seem to grasp this problem... here, how about this. What if being black was a sin? Oh, I'm sorry... it's not that he is black... it's just that he's acting on his blackness, amirite? (sw)sickening

[Loismustdie 0]

You say that you were supposed to be killed in that accident? People also aren't supposed to lose to one-outers either, but it happens. You have to know that you can't credit the existence of a supernatural being just because you have observed a bunch of things that you would consider miraculous.This is of no offense, but I've heard a million cases just like yours. Apparently, car accidents aren't as dangerous as everyone thinks because God is deciding to save people left and right.Also, to claim that I don't understand what you're saying because I'm not a "believer" is a crack pot theory, too. I once was a "believer", too, and trust me, it doesn't take belief in God to see how Christians got to the twisted theories that they believe in."I just know what kind of life God intended me to live, and I will do my best to live in that fashion."Oh? You've got God's personal cell number? Or how about the fact that you already know what life you should be living and that you can continue to do your best to live in that fashion without adding third parties? Since you're a believer, I can't expect you to understand this... (sw, kind of) but you'll find life much more meaningful once you shed the invisible buddy Jesus watching over your shoulders.Just like Toth pointed out, why is God so wonderful because he's saving your butt when he allows horrific accidents to happen to other people everyday? Religious people can be extremely selfish.Again, this is where this belief of homosexuality being a sin comes into problem. Religious people can't seem to grasp this problem... here, how about this. What if being black was a sin? Oh, I'm sorry... it's not that he is black... it's just that he's acting on his blackness, amirite? (sw)sickening

Actually, it's funny you bring that up, because your intolerance for religous beliefs is on par with racism. As a christian, who believes that homosexuality is a sin, here is what is being said: people who engage in homosexual acts with no repentance will not be allowed into heaven. That is all. They can love, be loved, make money, adopt, work, roam freely thru the wild, be free as the wind- they just can't get into heaven, because no sin is allowed into heaven. This goes for something as simple as liars, people who lie- they won't be allowed into heaven either. Some people cannot stop lying- do you know people like that? I do. They won't make it. Unless they repent from being dishonest, and continue to strive to be honest, they will not be allowed into heaven. No sin enters into heaven, no sin whatsoever. Homosexuality gets no pass, it is no different. I always like the thought that if God doesn't save everybody then he is not a good God. The truth is, you don't know- let's say I am in a car accident, I am carpooling to work. 2 co-workers burn alive and I walk away unharmed. What happened? Why didn't God step in? How could you or I even possibly answer? What if these were horrible people, all about sin and nothing else, completely ignoring God in all they do? We can never really know, so we don't say. Meanwhile, though, it hurts no one if one believes that it was God that saved him or her. Who is hurt? Close call- maybe that close call is what that christian needs to see areas in his life that need changeing- God knows a little reason for reflection never hurt a christian, a close call can be all that is needed.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

I don't know, maybe i'm a little misguided about my own personal experiences. A witness whose car i was sitting in waiting for the EMTs saying "I didn't think we were gonna find anyone alive." The tow truck driver who hauled the wreck away telling my parents, "I was pretty sure someone died in that wreck." Nurse's and doctors who had obviously conversed with police who responded saying, "You are both pretty fortunate." I find the accounts from two sources that obviously see mangled vehicles alot, the police, the towing guy, to be pretty spot on. I'm really not gonna dignify the rest of yer post with a response, for one, i didn't start posting to change anyones mind about what they believe. Secondly, you being a believer "at one time", its really sounding like you are just grasping for straws to justify your separation from faith. Finally, your dig at having Jesus's private cell number is completely ignorant. In that same post I'm pretty sure that I explained how i believe that God doesn't interact directly with your life, he only guides you, ultimately it is up to you to decide whether or not you percieve those signs as rubbish, or gain some understanding through them. Also, yah i live my life in a fashion that i percieve is in line with what God intended. I really don't know how you can possibly attack that statement. You're really coming off as a used car salesman that only has lemons on the lot, and needs to make a sale or he loses his job.In the end Kiser, don't believe, it doesn't matter to me. The original post was is homosexuality a sin, i believe it is. I think we found a horse that isn't thirsty, and that is ok.

[BWToth 0]

I always like the thought that if God doesn't save everybody then he is not a good God. The truth is, you don't know

Well, the thing I think about a lot if god does exist, and he let's things happen the way they do then he is fairly arbitrary in what he 'allows' to happen. Also sadistic. This is of course using our idea of rationality. God COULD have a completely different set of what is rational. If that is the case why did he make our rationality completely different from his own. Aren't we created in his image?If 'his' idea of rational, why did he create us with a different set of rationality and then set the world to work in terms of HIS rationality. What is his purpose for it all. Is it just like a form of entertainment for God? How is he such a 'loving' god but then allows things to work the way they do in the world?He is testing us? Why? Why would he want to create this 'test' (the world, our lives), what do have to offer if we 'pass' the test. Are we just lab rats?This isn't trying to be argumentative, these are real things I think about, albeit convoluted. I'd love nothing more than to believe wholeheartedly in a god, but things like this cast huge amounts of doubts on it.Why would god create a world where my rational thoughts and logic (that he put in me) would lead me to disbelieve in 'his' existence?For example if you were god, and you were going to create the earth and had the power to create it in any way you wanted, would you create it exaclty as it is? I know I wouldn't, and I don't know why god would. People like to say, "well life is hard, that's the point, and if you 'pass' you're reward is heaven, etc." What is god's motivation for making living the way he wants us to so 'hard'

[Loismustdie 0]

Well, the thing I think about a lot if god does exist, and he let's things happen the way they do then he is fairly arbitrary in what he 'allows' to happen. Also sadistic. This is of course using our idea of rationality. God COULD have a completely different set of what is rational. If that is the case why did he make our rationality completely different from his own. Aren't we created in his image?If 'his' idea of rational, why did he create us with a different set of rationality and then set the world to work in terms of HIS rationality. What is his purpose for it all. Is it just like a form of entertainment for God? How is he such a 'loving' god but then allows things to work the way they do in the world?He is testing us? Why? Why would he want to create this 'test' (the world, our lives), what do have to offer if we 'pass' the test. Are we just lab rats?This isn't trying to be argumentative, these are real things I think about, albeit convoluted. I'd love nothing more than to believe wholeheartedly in a god, but things like this cast huge amounts of doubts on it.Why would god create a world where my rational thoughts and logic (that he put in me) would lead me to disbelieve in 'his' existence?For example if you were god, and you were going to create the earth and had the power to create it in any way you wanted, would you create it exaclty as it is? I know I wouldn't, and I don't know why god would. People like to say, "well life is hard, that's the point, and if you 'pass' you're reward is heaven, etc." What is god's motivation for making living the way he wants us to so 'hard'

How did God make it hard? Did God invent porn? Did God invent The Golden Girls? How about Charlies Angels? Did God make Cocaine? Did God tell you, if you have a choice in the matter, don't tell the truth? Did God invent liquor? Did God tell you, or anyone, to sit down, do 8 shots and then flash some boobie on Girls Gone Wild? Did God tell you to film that action? Did God invent Speed? Did God invent weapons of mass destruction? The truth is that what he requires isn't that hard, and when it is it is directly because of mans own inventions, and no other reason. Following Christ would be so much easier if people would realize this one idea- the eye is the window to the mind. What you allow in, can make living a christian life harder, and for the most part, all we look to fill our minds full of is junk and sin. That is not Gods fault in anyway- it is ours. Your rational thought and logic is your own- God had nothing to do with that. Some of that will be environmental, some will be education level, some will be I.Q., and some will be common sense. Some will be a direct result of who you listen to in internet forums- do you realize that? When you ask a question on a forum such as this you are actually looking to get input on a very important issue on a internet forum based on poker that happens to have a religous forum area. How is that Gods fault? Did he tell you to do that? That is all your doing. Now, step outside yourself for a second and think about this- read what you wrote. All of it- one second you deny God, one second you claim you could be a better God, one second God is not fair and he is arbitrary, one second you believe a certain way and that is his fault. Do you realize how confused you are? If there is one thing that you take from what I am saying, take this-- please, please ask these questions elsewhere. If you think that God is a possibility then pray, and he will help you. he promises that all who seek will find. Truthfully, you have found- I can show you where to go, who to talk to, anything you need. Maybe I am the answer for you- all I can do is offer. What I cannot do is this- I can't give you faith. I can't make you leap. You already know the things that you would have to accept by faith, I know you know, but I cannot make that jump for you.

[BWToth 0]

That's why it sounds confusing, because this 'system' that 'god' has implemented doesn't jibe with the claims made ABOUT god in religious texts.I'm not looking for answers here, I'm looking for new information EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME. This just happens to be one of many places where I happen to 'be'.

Your rational thought and logic is your own- God had nothing to do with that. Some of that will be environmental, some will be education level, some will be I.Q., and some will be common sense.

Things like rationality and logic are OBJECTIVE that's my point, there is only one set of rules for 'logic' in humanity. You can apply the rules in a variety of ways to determine different things but the rules themselves don't change. if A = B and B = C then A ALWAYS HAS TO = C. As for the other things that 'influence' our rationality, I would be in the top percentile of all those categories, not to be arrogant, just a fact, and I don't see the rationality of the christian god. Are you saying that people with tortorous backgrounds, with no education, low IQ, and little common sense are better able to grasp the idea and see the rationality of god? Can you tell me what god's purpose is? If you can't why do you have any trust in him at all. He could be tricking all christians into believing what the bible says and then send everyone to hell anyways as a 'funny joke' in 'his mind'. What evidence do you have to the contrary? You can't talk to anyone who has died and experienced heaven.

[David_Nicoson 1]

How did God make it hard? Did God invent porn? Did God invent The Golden Girls? How about Charlies Angels? Did God make Cocaine? Did God tell you, if you have a choice in the matter, don't tell the truth? Did God invent liquor? Did God tell you, or anyone, to sit down, do 8 shots and then flash some boobie on Girls Gone Wild? Did God tell you to film that action? Did God invent Speed? Did God invent weapons of mass destruction?

Well, after a fashion, yes. None of those things would've been there without God.And he could've chosen to create a world in which those things couldn't exist.He had some help from people, but then we're back to the free will and omnipotent/omniscient God question.

[BWToth 0]

He had some help from people, but then we're back to the free will and omnipotent/omniscient God question.

Right, God didn't invent liquor he allowed for it to be possible to be created however. The point I was making is...I know if I were god, and I loved the little people I was going to create...I wouldn't allow for something like liquor, or nuclear bombs, or rape, to ever be able to exist in the first place. God HAD the chance, and power to make those things not be able to ever exist but he allowed for them to potentially exist anyways...my question is WHY?

[Kwest4chipz 0]

I might be wrong here, but as I understand it, God doesn't create all the temptation. My understanding is that the world was created in a utopic state as you describe. Someone defied the one rule imposed to Adam & Eve and ate from the forbidden fruit, enter original sin. They ate from the tree of knowledge and were now aware of things that they would have otherwise never been conscious about. Had they not eaten from the forbidden fruit...things that never would have crossed their minds, would have remained as such. It makes you wonder why humans do cloth themselves now? In extreme climates i can see a case, but other than that where did embarassment come from? Lets look at deceit which is another sin that branches off into other areas as well, where did that come from? Why do we lie? Why is there fear? Furthermore, why out of all the species are we the only ones that evolved to such a plateau that we can express all these emotions, think so complex. If evolution is truly the strong survive and adapt, why have no other creatures evolved to a point that they directly compete with us? To me if i look back at the original breaking of the "sin" seal, i find it very easy to explain why what most think God does to us, and makes him arbitrary, is nothing short of the other side of the equation. If you believe in God, you believe in Satan, and Satan....is throwing curveballs to get believers to question their faith. He's been doing it starting when he got them to eat from the forbidden fruit, and ever since. One thing that I find personally entertaining is the amount of woman i've met through my life that are deathly scared of snakes, I know it doesn't mean anything, but I find it kind of funny. I raise snakes, never been afraid of em, (well except venomous), and i've never understood the fear. Evolution does not explain all the emotions that we experience, how does sadness, anger, happiness and all the things humans are capable of feeling further the species? Some of those are a detriment. Sorry this is kind of rambling, but that last post raised so many questions furthering my doubt of evolution as an absolute, that i'm just kinda thinking out loud. My point is that all these things had an origin, and I believe it was in the Garden of Eden, the eating of the forbidden fruit and banishment from the Garden. Knowledge of all things bad and good and the fall from grace of the Lord. Now that we know things that were previously unknown to us, God has given us free will, we chose our own path. Satan attempts to swing our votes with temptation, we counter by recognizing it and living to the best of our abilities in the way God intended. That would be very simple if we had no knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. I'll admit this is kind of a all over the place post, but it really did make me think about some stuff, that maybe I should go back and read up on so i can express it a little better.

[Loismustdie 0]

Right, God didn't invent liquor he allowed for it to be possible to be created however. The point I was making is...I know if I were god, and I loved the little people I was going to create...I wouldn't allow for something like liquor, or nuclear bombs, or rape, to ever be able to exist in the first place. God HAD the chance, and power to make those things not be able to ever exist but he allowed for them to potentially exist anyways...my question is WHY?

Because to take away options would be to control free will and that is of extreme importance to God- that man had the choice to do whatever man wanted.

[Loismustdie 0]

Well, after a fashion, yes. None of those things would've been there without God.And he could've chosen to create a world in which those things couldn't exist.He had some help from people, but then we're back to the free will and omnipotent/omniscient God question.

So, because God gave man the ability to dream up porn, then God created it. So, really, we could all make a case that nothing is really our fault.

[David_Nicoson 1]

So, because God gave man the ability to dream up porn, then God created it. So, really, we could all make a case that nothing is really our fault.

There's no law of the conservation of guilt.

[Nikki_N 17]

There's no law of the conservation of guilt.

Ugh. When you post here it makes me come read and this thread just makes me feel crappy. On the other hand, I figure you might be standing up for your crooked smiled, lesbian wife and that you might just say something cool. The above post may not have been about my particular situation, but it was cool.

[BWToth 0]

Why is free will important to God? You still aren't explaining my point, put yourself in God's shoes....you create the world, which you love, would you decide to put in stuff that is bad? or the possiblilty of something bad? God was powerful enough to create adam and eve so that they didn't eat the fruit, why didn't he just put something in their brain that made them not even want to eat it in the first place? If was was going to create a world, why would I even make a tree that I forbid people to from it, why would I make it appealing? God did that. WHY? God did create the ORIGINAL temptation. He had the power not to. why did he choose to to allow it?It's the equivilant of setting a bowl of pudding with arsenic in it in front of a very hungry 4 year old, handing them a spoon and saying "don't eat this or you'll die" and then leaving to go to the store for an hour. Is this a rational, or logical thing to do to someone you 'love'. If a parent did this, and the baby ate it and died, would they go to jail for murder...YES, would you think that the parent loved their child? NO

[Kwest4chipz 0]

God created us because of love. God is a God of love. It was because of that love that he created man and woman. He wanted a relationship with us. In the beginning of the world, man and God had a great relationship. Nothing separated them.But rather than creating us programmed to love Him, God created us with a choice. A choice to love and obey or to reject and disobey. Because God wanted an authentic love relationship, he had to create us this way. But with the choice came sin, rejection and disobedience. With that choice also came separation.I had to paste that from another website because I didn't know how to word it. God wanted to show the richness of his glory. Sure he coulda created us so we just automatically loved him, but whats great about that? Something great is giving us the choice, and having 3/4 of the population of earth believe in some sort of higher power. A majorities higher power being God. To give us the choice to love him or disregard him and be followed by so many, is a glorious feat. We don't need, or have to bring a child into this world but i look at the desire to have children the same way I look at why God created us. Ultimately there is only one being that can answer the question definitively, and thats God. I watched that show on A&E i think, called Real Premonitions. I only bring it up because there is something more to our existence than just being here. People seeing into the future events that come to fruition, only suggests a higher level of consciousness. Why would people have accurate visions of the future when it isn't necessary for survival. The one example of a person that had an extraordinairy gift to help others with his visions was Edgar Cayce, this guy would go into a trance and give people cures to ailments, read their future, etc...He was so spot on, that people started to slip questions that would benefit them financially. At that time Edgar started to get headaches, and feel ill. He stopped reading for people and felt better. Eventually he started reading again but only with his wife present to filter the questions so he could not be exploited again. This is what he said about our origins, "All souls were created in the beginning, and are finding their way back to whence they came." Cayce believes that human souls were created with a consciousness of their oneness with God. Some "fell" from this state; others - led by the Jesus soul - volunteered to save them. The Earth, with all its limitations, was created as a suitable arena for spiritual growth. This is what i believe, and once again...I don't intend to sway anyone on their beliefs. I believe there is a higher spirituality, and awareness that I understand as God, and I still believe homosexuality is a sin.

[Loismustdie 0]

Why is free will important to God? You still aren't explaining my point, put yourself in God's shoes....you create the world, which you love, would you decide to put in stuff that is bad? or the possiblilty of something bad? God was powerful enough to create adam and eve so that they didn't eat the fruit, why didn't he just put something in their brain that made them not even want to eat it in the first place? If was was going to create a world, why would I even make a tree that I forbid people to from it, why would I make it appealing? God did that. WHY? God did create the ORIGINAL temptation. He had the power not to. why did he choose to to allow it?It's the equivilant of setting a bowl of pudding with arsenic in it in front of a very hungry 4 year old, handing them a spoon and saying "don't eat this or you'll die" and then leaving to go to the store for an hour. Is this a rational, or logical thing to do to someone you 'love'. If a parent did this, and the baby ate it and died, would they go to jail for murder...YES, would you think that the parent loved their child? NO

Actually, it is the equivalent of this- pretend I actually created my wife, not just married her. And, I tell her that the one thing she cannot do is have sex with other men. You would think."Wow, this is my creator, and he is not asking much- I guess I am not going to have sex with anyone else." Except, say she doesn't listen, and has sex with other men. How do you think I will view her after that? I don't know, I may try to make her life a little harder, make things not so easy, because, damn it, I already tried easy, and this women still decided that I, her creator, wasn't worth the time of day. Take what I just said, and pretend you are God and you actually did create and this stupid being manages to screw up the one thing you told it not to. He chose to allow it because of this- any dumbass scientist can create a Robot. Why would God want Robots? God wanted you to be able to love him on your own terms, because that is a perfect love. That's like saying, Why date? Why not just put shackles on her and drag her around? As a matter of fact, if all men did that, women woukldn't even know anything else existed, and that would become love. Except it is not, because they have not been given a choice. Basically,your example fails really because of one reason- you give yourself credit for the mentality of a baby. I will give you more than that.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Actually, it is the equivalent of this- pretend I actually created my wife, not just married her. And, I tell her that the one thing she cannot do is have sex with other men. You would think."Wow, this is my creator, and he is not asking much- I guess I am not going to have sex with anyone else." Except, say she doesn't listen, and has sex with other men. How do you think I will view her after that? I don't know, I may try to make her life a little harder, make things not so easy, because, damn it, I already tried easy, and this women still decided that I, her creator, wasn't worth the time of day. Take what I just said, and pretend you are God and you actually did create and this stupid being manages to screw up the one thing you told it not to.

It's not really parallel unless you also create the other men that she finds attractive. But we still have to ask, if you're omnipotent, why did you create her this way? Suppose she eventually grows old and dies. Do you create another one just like her, or maybe tweak the design just a bit so she doesn't do that? Is God some kind of masochist? Free will with an omnipotent God is a bit of a paradox. One either accepts it on faith, assuming that God's plan is beyond our understanding, or ignores the paradox.