Analysis On Dn's Final Table

[crowTrobot 2]

Hachem is a great player and has proven that over the last year, but he isn't even clsoe to being able to carry your tofu yet.

oi

[loxo 0]

Wow, you come in 3rd place of a major tourney where you enter the FT with a commanding chip lead. I think that you played great and had a series of bad cards running during the final 3. WTF, the only thing I will say about your play is from what I saw during your interviews you seemed a little "cocky" but you explained that in your blog. You HAVE to think that you are the best and you have to play your game, which you did. Jordan, Woods, and any other top player in any sport has that attitude. Hachem is a great player and has proven that over the last year, but he isn't even clsoe to being able to carry your tofu yet. Stick to your guns, maintain your attitude and you will continue to crush the opposition. You were crushing them until the final 3. GG DN, I can't wait to see it.

DN, if you read this....can you give us an opinion of Joe's play. Thanks.

[nutzbuster 7]

Daniel up at 8 AM ??? Must still be on Bahamma time!Good thread btw. More insight please!Bizz, Prty?....response???

[NoSup4U 0]

Great thread, all around.I just wanted to comment on the 'cocky' post a couple above this one. I too believe that you have a tremendous amount of self belief that you are the best to compete at the highest levels and succeed. But cocky and arrogant denote an overt, forced, outward expression of that, which I think is what most people bristle at.gg Daniel and congrats on the great finish.Mark

[1969_F85 0]

Hachem is a great player and has proven that over the last year

oi

Not taking anything away from Joe. I was telling my friends at our local game that of all the "recent" immatures, oops amateurs, he is going to prove to be the best among them. In about 3-5 years then he will be one of the top tourney players. "Time is the fire in which we burn. "- Dr. Soran Star Trek "Generations"

[SBriand 4]

Whatever! As if I care that anyone here thinks that I am "brown nosing" or sucking up. WTF could that even do for me? It isn't like DN is going to stake me in any tourney because I said something positive about his play. He is my favorite player, excuse me for expressing it. How's this?Daniel, you suck! You should apply for a job as a bagger at the local grocery store. Never pick up a card or chip again because you will never amount to anything. You will never be on the WPT all time money list, or set a record for POY points, or win a bracelet. Hell, you might as well run back to Canada again. Like I said, whatever.

Ypur post makes it sound like you can't understand why people would question his play. Noone in this thread is saying he sucks. Noone in this thread is berating him or trying to put him down. There are some very skilled poker players in this very informative thread wanting to disect what happened. Poker players do this if you didn't know. They talk, they disect, they analyze. So now you can be the only person in the thread to insult DN. Good job.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Bizzle' post='1602500' date='Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 5:29 PM']Daniel's play last night was a textbook case of a LAGy player not recognizing that the other players at the table had lost all respect for his raises and bets and were calling him down with less-than-strong hands, and him not adjusting at all. Hachem played his strategy of being slow and very cautious early on, playing 2 large pots with QQ aipf and QJ where he called a large bet with top 2 on a non-suited QJTxx board on the river.

Nope, that parts not true at all. Had nothing to do with losing respect for my bets at all, it had to do with the fact that they flopped the best hand.

In my opinion, hand 44, where Hachem called a turn bet after a checked flop with King high, a gutter, and 2 overs, and Daniel lucked his way into winning the pot with Ace high, was the defining hand of this match. Hachem showed here that he was willing to call with weaker hands and play pots where he wasn't the agressor versus Negreanu, letting Daniel get the money into the pot. If I am Daniel and I see this hand flipped up, I start checking against Hachem more frequently when I have air and betting significantly when I pick up a hand or two.

This doesn't make sense. K-J, a weak hand? He flopped a huge hand and allowed me to win HIS pot and you thought I should be worried about that? That hand only added to my confidence that I'd be able to manipulate him after the flop. It would have the opposite effect. Not checking MORE, but checking LESS.In hands 45 and 66, Hachem calls a flop bet from Negreanu, checks down on the turn and river with 2nd pair, and picks up what was now becoming sizable pots due to Daniel pretty much never checking behind. Those were very small pots, where once again I was outflopped, bet the minimum on the flop, and then gave up from there.

In hand 55, we see the first Hanna-Negreanu matchup, where Daniel calls a preflop raise of 300k with K9o, check-calls a standard continuation bet of 350k on a 77h6h board, and then checkshoves for 1.5mil on the Kh turn. The thing that baffles me on this hand isn't the check-shove (which isn't nearly as terrible when I re-look at it as I initially thought due to chipcounts) but the check-call on the flop. I guess Daniel feels like he can represent a hand here by calling on the flop and checking to him again on the turn. I just feel like this is a spot where on the flop, with the other player betting 20% of his stack, calling is pretty much the worst possible option.

That wasn't the first altercation, and it wasn't even the first time for a play like this. Hanna was pretty straight forward. He raised with big cards and then made a continuation bet on the flop. He'd noticed that I did little to no bluffing all day prior so I KNEW that I'd be able to take pots from him after the flop if he missed. The first time we tangled he raised and I called from the BB with Q-10. Flop was like, 7-6-2. I check called. Turn was a 7, and I bet, he called. River was a 10 and I check mucked. If he was bluffing I got totally outplayed, but I doubt that very highly.

In hand 56, Negreanu leads out in a raised pot for 300k on a 832r board, and then flatcalls Hanna's raise of 1.2 mil. He checks the 7 turn to Hanna and Hanna shoves, and DN folds. At this point there is 3.3mil in the pot, and Hanna has ~2.5 mil behind. I guess I struggle to see a hand that is capable of calling that flop and then check-folding to what is basically a guaranteed shove on the turn. This is truly the hand that baffles me over any other...I just cannot see this line being taken for any reason, with any hand.

I think that was a mistake as well. I was getting 2-1 to hit an A or a 5 and I felt like I'd be able to bust him if I hit either. Plus, I felt like he may check the turn, or may have been bluffing, thus my Ace high was good. I think the REAL reason I made the mistake was because I couldn't count my chips! It was hard to figure out how much you had with all of the various denominations.Just overall, several lines that make pretty much zero sense to me, and several spots where clearly he wasn't getting respect and was getting called down by weak hands. Sometimes, you just have to slow down and not force your way into winning every pot. I feel like DN realized this, but it was a little too late by that point. That's just totally not true and it's because you are misunderstanding what a "weak hand" is three handed. I wouldn't expect anyone to fold middle pair for a min bet. When you watch the show I don't think you'll find even ONE instance where my opponents called with a weak hand. A pair three handed is NOT a weak hand when facing a very small bet. When playing small ball, you are banking on A) hitting a few flops, and B) hoping your opponents don't flop too many pairs. Down to three handed I had two pair counterfitted, had my opponent hit the ONLY card that could cost me 1.5 million Kh, got outdrawn by a gutshot, and ultimately lost with K-10 vs. 44... oh well.

[1969_F85 0]

Ypur post makes it sound like you can't understand why people would question his play. Noone in this thread is saying he sucks. Noone in this thread is berating him or trying to put him down. There are some very skilled poker players in this very informative thread wanting to disect what happened. Poker players do this if you didn't know. They talk, they disect, they analyze. So now you can be the only person in the thread to insult DN. Good job.

HAHA! Not an insult at all, just sarcasm. I know there are a lot of people the critique play and many people on here are very insightful. I use the comments on here all the time and really respect a lot of people on here. But "there is something on your nose"? WTF? I was just giving my thoughts, not trying to suck up or brown nose, just my thoughts.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

The reason none of the analysis that has been written can be very accurate is because it doesn't take into account what happened in the 15 hours prior to the final table. I made few, if any bluffs leading up to the final table. I got unlucky when the King of hearts hit the turn and that cost me a big pot. Then, against Joe, I had 7-8 on a board of K-7-2-8... the river was a 2. On another hand I had K-J vs Q-J on a board of A-A-K. Turn was a 10. The only sloppy play I think I made was calling a 900k raise on a board of 8-2-3 with A-4. I felt as though if I hit an Ace or a 4 I may bust him, and I also felt like there was a very good chance that I'd get a free card on the turn. Getting 2-1 that was close, but folding would have been a better option. As for Joe calling my raise, that was a no-brainer. At that point I was short on chips, down to 1.5 million and Joe made it 450k. The idea that me re-raising meant that "I didn't have much" is silly. Why would I push in with garbage? I considered calling the raise, but it was too high a percentage of my stack, plus, Joe would have laid down a hand like A-7 IMO.

I don't want to speak directly for Bizzle, but I'm pretty sure this was the hand that confused him the most. I know it did me. My friend and I were gambooling and watching the cardplayer updates live, and when this hand showed up, we had NO idea what was going on. I think this was the hand that made me consider what the hell Daniel was doing. Like Biz said he did, we went through as many hands as we could, trying to figure out what hand leads for 300K, and calls 900K back, then folds to a "I could see that coming" turn push. I guess A4/A5 makes as much sense as anything. DN said he thought he was paying for two cards, but at least our instincts were right about him perhaps playing this hand wrong. I'm still not totally convinced that Hachem and Hanna weren't made nearly as uncomfortable as they could have been, given relative stack sizes, etc., but I suppose that's all I've got for now. Whatever. Sometimes, you just get the ole' penis on the back, and there's nothing you can do about it except go cry in the bathroom.WangEDIT: Alright, the A4 hand has been beaten to death. Ignore me.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Daniel, what I would question then is why you never switched gears once it got to 3 handed. Obviously you came in with a tighter than normal image for you if you had shown very few bluffs before the final table, and used that image to play very aggressively and pick up chips. However, Hachem and Hanna were both very good, alert players, and I'm sure they picked up on this. You can play like a maniac for periods of time, but then seem to know when to tone it down once players start responding. However, it seemed like they started responding to your maniacal play especially once it hit 3-handed, and were no longer respecting your raises. Did you ever consider backing off the gas, especially once you had lost a couple million in 3 handed play?

What tournament were y'all watching? My play was never very aggressive, nor was it maniacal in any way? If I could change anything, it would be that I flopped more pairs and my opponents flopped less. Unless the show reveals that I was bluffed on several occasions, it was just hard luck. The only hand where I am even slightly worried that I was outplayed was a hand against Joe where it came K-7-2-8-2 and I had 7-8.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

How's this?Daniel, you suck! You should apply for a job as a bagger at the local grocery store. Never pick up a card or chip again because you will never amount to anything. You will never be on the WPT all time money list, or set a record for POY points, or win a bracelet. Hell, you might as well run back to Canada again. Like I said, whatever.

As fate would have it, I'm actually pretty good friends with the best grocery bagger in the Northeast part of this fine country. If DN needs some pointers, I'd be happy to call in a favour.

[nutzbuster 7]

BESTTHREADEVER.... :D

[IveyWanaBe 0]

it just sucks u didint win

[NoSup4U 0]

BESTTHREADEVER.... :D

Hello...Brandi??? Clearly you're more interested in poker strat than gossip. For shame....Mark

[UncleHoot 0]

it just sucks u didint win

Nail / head.

[crowTrobot 2]

Not taking anything away from Joe. I was telling my friends at our local game that of all the "recent" immatures, oops amateurs, he is going to prove to be the best among them. In about 3-5 years then he will be one of the top tourney players. "Time is the fire in which we burn. "- Dr. Soran Star Trek "Generations"

but you are taking away from him. he is obviously one of the top 10 NLHE tourney pros in the world right now, arguably top 5. with this win he was probably a couple bad suckouts away from being player of the year, even while missing most of the WPT events

[nutzbuster 7]

Hello...Brandi??? Clearly you're more interested in poker strat than gossip. For shame....Mark

Donkey.THis is great stuff man. Appreaciate all the responses/input..., seriously. Best tourney discussion ever.

[IveyWanaBe 0]

Nail / head.

alright lol

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I'd just like to thank Mr. "Speedo King of the American Northeast" Bizzle for getting this ball rolling. He originally posted this somewhere else, worried whether or not it'd get the kind of response he was lookin for if he cross/posted in GenPop. Except for the brief "I nutted in your ear" diversion (especially the quaintly tasteful graphic... 10 points for Mr. Icewater), I am shockingly impressed.How condescending did that sound? As condescending as I wanted it to? Wang

[SBriand 4]

I'd just like to thank Mr. "Speedo King of the American Northeast" Bizzle for getting this ball rolling. He originally posted this somewhere else, worried whether or not it'd get the kind of response he was lookin for if he cross/posted in GenPop. Except for the brief "I nutted in your ear" diversion (especially the quaintly tasteful graphic... 10 points for Mr. Icewater), I am shockingly impressed.How condescending did that sound? As condescending as I wanted it to? Wang

Right on man! You rock! You hit nail on head! You are the bees knees...you wanna...you know?

[1969_F85 0]

but you are taking away from him. he is obviously one of the top 10 NLHE tourney pros in the world right now, arguably top 5. with this win he was probably a couple bad suckouts from being player of the year.

Well, that isn't what I meant. What I meant was in comparison to DN's accomplishments. I fully agree that he has had some bad cards hit him at the worst of times otherwise....Total props to Joe, he is great and deserving.

[mk 11]

yes, this has been shockingly cordial. wp general

[Jdr999 0]

Then, against Joe, I had 7-8 on a board of K-7-2-8... the river was a 2.

The action Joe took in this hand makes no sense to me.Here's the action, according to CardPlayer:"Joe Hachem limps in from the small blind and Daniel Negreanu checks. The flop comes K-7-2 rainbow and Hachem bets $100,000. Negreanu raises $100,000 and Hachem call. After a turn of 8x, Hachem checks and Negreanu bets $500,000. Hachem calls and the 2x (no possible flush) comes on the river. Hachem bets $1,000,000 and Negreanu folds.I just can't put Joe on a hand that beats you, unless he was slowplaying a monster hand (Pocket K's, 7's, possibly pocket 8's). Joe's smooth call of your raises on the flop and turn, then leading out on the river is a very odd play, one that I think could be a bluff. What type of hand did you put Joe on before you folded?

On another hand I had K-J vs Q-J on a board of A-A-K. Turn was a 10.

Yes, but after Hanna leads out for 500K on the turn and 800K on the river after checking the flop, what hands can you beat against this type of player?Losing to any ace, and K-Q, Q-J or possibly pocket 10's. Did you consider folding the river? You can only beat a bluff in my opinion. How did the K-9 vs. his K-J affect your play of this hand, and what hands he could be betting with?

[mk 11]

DN, if you'd be willing to make some comments on Hachem's game, that would be interesting to a lot of us I think. As JC said, perceptions of him from tv are that he's something of a rock. What is the consensus among the top pros on his game? Respek?

[mk 11]

I just can't put Joe on a hand that beats you, unless he was slowplaying a monster hand (Pocket K's, 7's, possibly pocket 8's). Joe's smooth call of your raises on the flop and turn, then leading out on the river is a very odd play, one that I think could be a bluff. What type of hand did you put Joe on before you folded?

the deuce counterfeits DN's two pair, any K, and QQ-99 have him beat.