Is This Cheating?

[smallwd 0]

This happened at a home game over the weekend. There are 3 players left. The button is an ok player, I'm the SB, the BB is a newbie.Chip stacks:Button - ~6000SB (me) - ~18000BB - 1200Blinds are 500/1000 so the BB has 200 left after posting. Button limps. My hand is 48o. I like my chances heads up much better against the newbie, so I push all in to get the button out of the hand and triple up the short stack. BB calls and button folds. We show the cards and the button accuses me of cheating. I say it's not cheating, I can do what I want with my chips.Thoughts?P.S. flop was 4-4-8 and ruined my plan anyway...

[Zach6668 513]

No. It's not cheating.You can make awful plays and pushes all you want.

[pkr_emprr 0]

When you stacked the bottom of the deck with 448 and spread that across the flop; then you crossed the line into cheating.He was too obsessed crying about you making a crazy play with a junk hand (something that wasn't cheating), then noticing you dealing from the bottom of the deck.Congrats on your mechanics, Ill give you 20% to clean up my home game, just don't get caught, people have been known to get shot.

[quadaces 0]

This happened at a home game over the weekend. There are 3 players left. The button is an ok player, I'm the SB, the BB is a newbie.Chip stacks:Button - ~6000SB (me) - ~18000BB - 1200Blinds are 500/1000 so the BB has 200 left after posting. Button limps. My hand is 48o. I like my chances heads up much better against the newbie, so I push all in to get the button out of the hand and triple up the short stack. BB calls and button folds. We show the cards and the button accuses me of cheating. I say it's not cheating, I can do what I want with my chips.Thoughts?P.S. flop was 4-4-8 and ruined my plan anyway...

Yeah, its called chip dumping. That is cheating! Pushing all in because you are trying to triple up the Newb is cheating, pushing to get everyone to fold is different. You were trying to lose that pot to him and that is a big problem.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Yeah, its called chip dumping. That is cheating! Pushing all in because you are trying to triple up the Newb is cheating, pushing to get everyone to fold is different. You were trying to lose that pot to him and that is a big problem.

No, it's a form of strategy. I guess the line is a thin one, but collusion assumes that one has some sort of outside, non poker motivation for getting someone else to win (ie you're friends or he's splitting the winnings with you, etc). Imagine a scenerio where you're at a table with Phil Ivey and Tiffany Williamson. Would it be collusion if you went out of your way to try to knock off Ivey by doubling Tiffany? It's just strategy.Though not necessarily a good one unless the example is as extreme as the one above.

[pkr_emprr 0]

Yeah, its called chip dumping. That is cheating! Pushing all in because you are trying to triple up the Newb is cheating, pushing to get everyone to fold is different. You were trying to lose that pot to him and that is a big problem.

Ill start with a clear cut example, dumping your chips to a friend and splitting the proceeds of the tournament with him afterwards is cheating.BUT, in my view, whatever your intentions are for pushing a horrible hand besides the expressed cheating in my above example, it can't be cheating. If you want to push in with a horrid hand, and that so happens to double up the short stack, and he so happens to help you beat the other opponent, then big deal. You can use whatever strategy you want, you aren't expressly colluding with the other weaker player here, you are just trying out a multiple round tournament strategy that you think might work.Furthermore, say three players left and all three all in, still hu action on the side pot. You and him check it down because thats an universal implied tournament strategy to knock out the short stack. Thats not cheating either.

[simo_8ball 0]

The shove itself is a very good move. You have fantastic fold equity over the button and create a very profitable situation for yourself. You are in the SB of 500, so it you have to bet 700 to win 1200 + 500 + 1000 = 2700, which is 3.8:1.Now if that was your motive, then great. You made a deceptively intelligent play.If your motive was to give chips to your opponent, then that move is more dubious. I keep thinking of the Hasan Habib KJ situation.

[homnig 0]

No. It's not cheating.You can make awful plays and pushes all you want.

hahaha exactly.Seriously how big of an edge can you be against anyone with the blinds that big. I really don't know what you're thinking.

[smallwd 0]

The shove itself is a very good move. You have fantastic fold equity over the button and create a very profitable situation for yourself. You are in the SB of 500, so it you have to bet 700 to win 1200 + 500 + 1000 = 2700, which is 3.8:1.Now if that was your motive, then great. You made a deceptively intelligent play.If your motive was to give chips to your opponent, then that move is more dubious. I keep thinking of the Hasan Habib KJ situation.

OK I'm new here..can you please explain what fold equity is? I was aware that the pot odds were favorable even though I was holding trash. Also, I wasn't specifically dumping chips...I just didn't care if I tripled up the short stack since my stack was so large in comparison.Interesting that many of you say this is cheating. Isn't it common for a group of players in a tournament to agree to split the winnings among the group or to stake other players in the tournament?

[trystero 0]

Interesting that many of you say this is cheating. Isn't it common for a group of players in a tournament to agree to split the winnings among the group or to stake other players in the tournament?

I only count one person who claimed that this was cheating. Most defend the integrity of your play, though not your line of reasoning.

[Wingmaster05 0]

You can make awful plays and pushes all you want.

It's only *not as good* if you are already in the money, as the button might just say f#ck it and call off his stack with a weak hand, but that is still unlikely. On the bubble it's beautiful.

Seriously how big of an edge can you be against anyone with the blinds that big. I really don't know what you're thinking.

The edge you have is an almost guaranteed fold by button, and the BB is calling with literally anything. 700 extra to flip a coin with the short stack and possibly get it heads up. A loss doesnt hurt you, with a stack of 17000 and the shorty around 3500.and consider...

There are 3 players left. The button is an ok player, I'm the SB, the BB is a newbie.

"OK player" is good enough for me to assume he wouldn't limp/stack off here. tough to tell."newb" - ****, this guy might fold to your all in in hopes of getting second, who knows. This was a good play.then again...

so I push all in to get the button out of the hand and triple up the short stack.

nevermind, wtf? worked nice, strange reasoning.

[Zach6668 513]

OMG Wingmaster!Where have you been?Get to LHE strat immediately.Also, I didn't actually think all that hard about the situation, just that I knew it wasn't cheating.

[Actuary 3]

quadaces doesn't count..as simo said bad rationale.I'd want to know for sure Button was "smart" enough to fold here.which would depend on payouts toohis limp range would be dandy to know (edit to add: Which given BB's stack could be a whole lotta hands, even good ones, expecting us to cooperate and expecting us to think he has nothing)

[homnig 0]

Wingmaster, I'm really questioning smallwd's reasoning behind wanting to triple up the shortstack player.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Haha, this situation is so dumb. Giving chips away is definitely not +EV in this situation. Why does "getting it heads up" matter so much? If second place pays, the LAST thing you want to do is get it heads up. Just raise every pot and win the blinds.The Hasan Habib KJ hand doesn't apply so much, because the OP has no stake in anyone else at the table. Hasan had a big piece of Tuan Le, and knocking him out in 3rd was suboptimal. Though he may have just played the hand wrong.And this is an auto push with any two cards, here. We can't let the SB see a flop. You don't even need to look at your cards to move SB in, here.

[iggymcfly 0]

Wanting to triple up the BB to "avoid playing the Button HU" is beyond retarded. The button will still be in the game, and will be just as hard to defeat whether the BB gets your chips or not. However, the push itself is a very +EV move. You're almost guaranteeing that the button will fold in a spot where you'd have the right odds to get your chips in anyway, and may well knock out a hand that would have beaten you otherwise. Also, I guess if you don't win the pot, it is slightly better to have BB win then button since it preserves the 2nd-place bubble (is this what you were thinking?) and allows you to make more liberal steals.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Wanting to triple up the BB to "avoid playing the Button HU" is beyond retarded. The button will still be in the game, and will be just as hard to defeat whether the BB gets your chips or not. However, the push itself is a very +EV move. You're almost guaranteeing that the button will fold in a spot where you'd have the right odds to get your chips in anyway, and may well knock out a hand that would have beaten you otherwise. Also, I guess if you don't win the pot, it is slightly better to have BB win then button since it preserves the 2nd-place bubble (is this what you were thinking?) and allows you to make more liberal steals.

No. See my above post.But that is NOT what he was thinking. He was giving BB ammo to take out the SB, so he could, then, take those chips from teh BB instead of the SB. Which is, of course, one of the 3 or 4 stupidest things I've seen today.

[mtdesmoines 3]

When you stacked the bottom of the deck with 448 and spread that across the flop; then you crossed the line into cheating.He was too obsessed crying about you making a crazy play with a junk hand (something that wasn't cheating), then noticing you dealing from the bottom of the deck.Congrats on your mechanics, Ill give you 20% to clean up my home game, just don't get caught, people have been known to get shot.

Um. Who needs a mechanic to clean up their home game? Here are my 2006 finishes in home games: 22112113out 12Dec game ytbd

[smallwd 0]

OK I see where the reasoning was bad, I was just curious to know if I'd broken some rule I didn't know about. Sounds like I didn't, so that's good. BTW since I've started reading the forums here, I've played 5 times, won 4 and bubbled once (I'm up $350). I owe a lot of that to the posters on here. You guys have really helped me get beyond just being a break even player. Thanks for all of the good advice!

[Actuary 3]

BTW since I've started reading the forums here, I've played 5 times, won 4 and bubbled once (I'm up $350). I owe a lot of that to the posters on here. You guys have really helped me get beyond just being a break even player. Thanks for all of the good advice!

well, 5 tournies is too shrt term to indicate anything; but if you are starting to learn why you make the plays you do or shouldn't, that's swell.Post in threads and give your opinion without looking at others first.Maybe you end up putting somthing that others will think is ridiculous.But people will learn in the discussion

[iggymcfly 0]

No. See my above post.But that is NOT what he was thinking. He was giving BB ammo to take out the SB, so he could, then, take those chips from teh BB instead of the SB. Which is, of course, one of the 3 or 4 stupidest things I've seen today.

I read your post again, read my post again, and really don't see any difference between the two. Don't we agree that the reasoning was terrible, but the push was the right move? What was the big mistake I made?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I read your post again, read my post again, and really don't see any difference between the two. Don't we agree that the reasoning was terrible, but the push was the right move? What was the big mistake I made?

??? No, that was my way of referring you to reasons previously elucidated for which I agree with you that "that's just retarded."

[starfit 0]

Push was the right thing to do.

[prodddiii 0]

this is absolutly not cheating, if i were you i would check the accuser into a psyc ward asap.some could say that you were dumping chips which is cheating but unless you stated your intent (to triple up the short stack) then they're argument has no foundation and they should give up.