Kk - The Endless Discussion

[MasterLJ 0]

Now, the "never fold KK" folks would say that your goal is to try and get your money in pre-flop with KK. The "I can fold KK pre-flop" crowd may act somewhat cautiously in cases where there is tons of action.But here's the thing... if our competition is competent, we won't see them all-in pre-flop with QQ/JJ or worse. So why push with Kings pre-flop? We're only getting called by AA and we're losing an opportunity to stack our opponent. Is that profit from the re-raise enough? An example:I'm in MP with KK. I open for 4xBB. The BB re-pops to 12xBB. Shoving and/or re-raising are bad here imo because it will make a worse hand fold and will only be called by a better hand. You can stack JJ/QQ if the flop comes down ten high. You cannot stack QQ/JJ if you shove preflop.

[Zach6668 513]

I agree.I thought about this a lot when I was playing NL cash. Against competent opponents only.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

First off, the situation is slightly contrived because we're getting reraised by a blind. This happens much more often when we raise from MP or EP, and somebody behind us isolates. Then the situation becomes trickier. If our opponent has 100 BB and we do too, I think we're better served reraising to 30ishBB. At this point, our opponent might shove with AA KK AK or even a hand as bad as QQ. If we allow that we're going busto vs. AA on a super ragged flop, I still see no problem with calling the push here. Unless the only hand he'll push with is AA. But it's usually not. It's usually AK, AA, KK and maybe QQ or JJ. He might call and see a flop with QQ. He might toss JJ. Maybe he smooth calls with AK. Who knows. But now the hand is a lot more wideopen, I think.Wang

[coppedit 0]

If he raises in LP or button i would think that a re-raise would be OK because he could just be trying to isolate himself verse only one player. However, by re-raising froma blind, he is showing alot of strength by raising way out of position. While he could have a bad hand, the odds that he has a very strong hand are much more likely. A hand like JJ or QQ would just call out of the blinds most of the time, hoping to dodge over cards. I think your best bet is to calling the BB re-raise and hoping to dodge the Ace. If any other face cards come out, you can play the situation and try to figure out if he hit a set or not. If he has aces on a low board, thats just bad luck.

[Sefaje 0]

i did an experiment and took note of the times I folded KK preflop and got to see if i made the correct fold. of 22 preflop folds of KK, my opponents either showed or went to showdown with AA 18 times.i used to never fold KK preflop, but then I started to like money

[antistuff 0]

i did an experiment and took note of the times I folded KK preflop and got to see if i made the correct fold. of 22 preflop folds of KK, my opponents either showed or went to showdown with AA 18 times.i used to never fold KK preflop, but then I started to like money

i got an interesting idea from thislets give our opponents a range of hands that they might get it all in preflop with that could be played in a similar way to AA.aa ak qqsince you are such a favorite over ak and qq, how often do you have to be correct for you to be making this fold? what if we add a little more weight to the possibility of aa?what if we added jj to the mix?my gut feeling tells me that you're gonna have to be right a lot.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Using the word competent is pretty questionable.A competent player can easily be pushing preflop with hands liek AK, QQ/JJ/1010 etc in the right situations. Replace the word competent with nitty and you might have an argument.Also if you're immediatly put on AA/KK when you 4-bet preflop you need to open up your game a lot.As far as being able to fold KK preflop I think its doable but most of the time im doing it will be when im either relatively deepstacked or the hand is multi way and it seems like one of my opponents has to have AA.

[MasterLJ 0]

Using the word competent is pretty questionable.A competent player can easily be pushing preflop with hands liek AK, QQ/JJ/1010 etc in the right situations. Replace the word competent with nitty and you might have an argument.Also if you're immediatly put on AA/KK when you 4-bet preflop you need to open up your game a lot.As far as being able to fold KK preflop I think its doable but most of the time im doing it will be when im either relatively deepstacked or the hand is multi way and it seems like one of my opponents has to have AA.

Now here's the thing, bluffing in the micros and the beginning tiers of small stakes is -EV. If you can't get your opponent to fold top pair mid-kicker even if you throw all your chips at them, then "opening up your game," may come at the expense of value.An example ($100 NL):I hold AQos on the button. 4 limpers than it comes to the cutoff (73/11) who makes it 3xBB. I raise to 12xBB for squeeze play value and for value in general. Folds around to CO who tanks and calls. Flop is 10 8 2 rainbow. He checks, I fire out the pot. He tanks and calls.I know what this douchebag has, he has xT where x is J or greater.I can't bring myself to fire again. Against a reasonable opponent, I can fire hard on the turn but I know that any attempt to take this guy off this top pair will take me on a one-way trip to Spewsville.Later that night I'm against a 50/6 with AJos. I raise from MP, folds to BB who calls (horrible pot odds). Flop is similar 10 7 4. I fire, he calls. Turn is a 3. I know he is incredibly weak, I fire... he calls. River is a 2 and I check behind. He shows A2os and rakes the pot after spiking his 3 outer.Moral of the story is that "opening your game" means much less at lower stakes where bluffing is -EV.

[trystero 0]

This is very true against the type of player described. The reason why it's true is because you can force your opponent to make the 'correct' play postflop which you cannot do preflop. Suppose you're both deepstacked with about 100 BBs; you know that villain's competent because you're an avid dataminer, say he's 20/7, yet he knows nothing about you.You raise to 3x with KK in MP and he 3-bets QQ OTB. Well, if you push here then he's likely to fold. He doesn't have enough invested to call correctly against an unknown. Your capping range is really limited, QQ+ and AK basically. So instead you just call and take an innocuous flop of, say, 267 rainbow. You're far more likely to get his chips now because he has to include 88-QQ in your range when you c/r. After all, would you not have reraised pf with KK or AA? So if he knows nothing about you then it's rarely the case for him to fold here correctly in lower-limit NL because of your wide range. You've forced him to make the 'correct' play postflop which was not possible to do preflop. Even if the flop isn't so innocuous, say it comes jack high, then it's often correct for him to get it all in here because a lot of unknown donks overplay TPTK or even KJ.This all depends, of course, on the information available - that of what he knows about you and what you know about him. But I definitely see merit in this suggestion.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Later that night I'm against a 50/6 with AJos. I raise from MP, folds to BB who calls (horrible pot odds). Flop is similar 10 7 4. I fire, he calls. Turn is a 3. I know he is incredibly weak, I fire... he calls. River is a 2 and I check behind. He shows A2os and rakes the pot after spiking his 3 outer.Moral of the story is that "opening your game" means much less at lower stakes where bluffing is -EV.

Good example, if the example was meant to support the exact opposite of the argument you were trying to make... "I bet every street when I was ahead and got called down by a worse hand. And then the hand hit a 3 outer and I lost. Moral of the story? DON'T BET SO MUCH UNLESS YOUHAVE THE NUTZ OR ULL GET OUTDRAWN OMG111!!!"When I'm playing NL micros, I usually play 5 or 6 handed. And I have a very, very, very wide raising range. I then continuation bet at every single flop, no matter what comes off. It's like printing money. I also reraise liberally against worse players, and fire at the pot most of the time. Also, what's with the guy who folded KK 22 times preflop, and saw his opponents cards each and every time? WangEdit: Oh, nevermind. He said "of the times I got to see what he had..." Nice. So you folded KK much more than that? I don't think you're approaching this "experiment" with the proper methodology. I bet you would've been shown AK, JJ, QQ, 72 A LOT the times you didn't get to see. At least enough to make this total crap.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Good example, if the example was meant to support the exact opposite of the argument you were trying to make... "I bet every street when I was ahead and got called down by a worse hand. And then the hand hit a 3 outer and I lost. Moral of the story? DON'T BET SO MUCH UNLESS YOUHAVE THE NUTZ OR ULL GET OUTDRAWN OMG111!!!"When I'm playing NL micros, I usually play 5 or 6 handed. And I have a very, very, very wide raising range. I then continuation bet at every single flop, no matter what comes off. It's like printing money. I also reraise liberally against worse players, and fire at the pot most of the time. Also, what's with the guy who folded KK 22 times preflop, and saw his opponents cards each and every time? WangEdit: Oh, nevermind. He said "of the times I got to see what he had..." Nice. So you folded KK much more than that? I don't think you're approaching this "experiment" with the proper methodology. I bet you would've been shown AK, JJ, QQ, 72 A LOT the times you didn't get to see. At least enough to make this total crap.

QFT all day longEDIT: Oh, and never assume a full ring of competent players. Never.

[MasterLJ 0]

Good example, if the example was meant to support the exact opposite of the argument you were trying to make... "I bet every street when I was ahead and got called down by a worse hand. And then the hand hit a 3 outer and I lost. Moral of the story? DON'T BET SO MUCH UNLESS YOUHAVE THE NUTZ OR ULL GET OUTDRAWN OMG111!!!"When I'm playing NL micros, I usually play 5 or 6 handed. And I have a very, very, very wide raising range. I then continuation bet at every single flop, no matter what comes off. It's like printing money. I also reraise liberally against worse players, and fire at the pot most of the time. Also, what's with the guy who folded KK 22 times preflop, and saw his opponents cards each and every time? WangEdit: Oh, nevermind. He said "of the times I got to see what he had..." Nice. So you folded KK much more than that? I don't think you're approaching this "experiment" with the proper methodology. I bet you would've been shown AK, JJ, QQ, 72 A LOT the times you didn't get to see. At least enough to make this total crap.

Not going to lie, I've been shell shocked and am having a tough time pulling the trigger. Your points are obviously valid and correct. The one thing that I will point out though is that 100% equity >>>>>>>>>>> 0% equity, meaning it's much better to get your opponent to fold when you have a marginal best hand (TPTK as effectively my AJ was to his A2) than to let him see a turn and a river and put you for a tough decision on the river (although not the case in the AJ vs A2 example), since the river is where you can make your biggest mistakes. So if you can't get your opponent to fold their pair on the flop (any pair)... your overs are only 3/4 favorite, if that.I guess it's worth a different thread, but I cannot beat $100 over 15k hands =(. It's pathetic. When I get a monster I get no action. When I get aggressive with TPTK/Overpair I run into a retarded monster (Q7 calling a raise OOP and catching on a Q72 flop to my KK for example). Then the times when I get all my money in ahead, there have been horrendous suckouts. I suppose it's affecting my outlook on the game.

[No_Neck 0]

Now here's the thing, bluffing in the micros and the beginning tiers of small stakes is -EV. If you can't get your opponent to fold top pair mid-kicker even if you throw all your chips at them, then "opening up your game," may come at the expense of value.An example ($100 NL):I hold AQos on the button. 4 limpers than it comes to the cutoff (73/11) who makes it 3xBB. I raise to 12xBB for squeeze play value and for value in general. Folds around to CO who tanks and calls. Flop is 10 8 2 rainbow. He checks, I fire out the pot. He tanks and calls.I know what this douchebag has, he has xT where x is J or greater.I can't bring myself to fire again. Against a reasonable opponent, I can fire hard on the turn but I know that any attempt to take this guy off this top pair will take me on a one-way trip to Spewsville.Later that night I'm against a 50/6 with AJos. I raise from MP, folds to BB who calls (horrible pot odds). Flop is similar 10 7 4. I fire, he calls. Turn is a 3. I know he is incredibly weak, I fire... he calls. River is a 2 and I check behind. He shows A2os and rakes the pot after spiking his 3 outer.Moral of the story is that "opening your game" means much less at lower stakes where bluffing is -EV.

that second hand you had the best of it... you had him down to three outs, whatcha bitching about. The first hand you are playing a maniac there is going to be lots of variance.

[rgold79 0]

I only browsed this thread, so I apologize if I'm just repeating something someone else said. First of all, it doesn't look like it was distinguished as to whether this is a tournament or a cash game. I would agree with folding KK preflop in a tournament, given a number of combined circumstances and a finite number of chips. Generally, in a cash game, though, folding KK preflop is incorrect across the board. Assume that when you're AIPF with KK and you win you'll get slightly better than even money each time. So if you win half of these hands you break even. I'm too lazy to post the math, but essentially, you'll win 20% of KK vs. AA anyway, and your opponent's pushing ranges might be wider than you think. Versus QQ or JJ or AK (and you'll see people push with much worse) you're the favorite and the overlay from all of them more than compensates for those times when you run into aces that hold up, giving you a profit over the long run. Seems to me it's a pretty well established tenet that in the cash game of life getting all your chips in with KK preflop whenver possible is +ev.

[MasterLJ 0]

I only browsed this thread, so I apologize if I'm just repeating something someone else said. First of all, it doesn't look like it was distinguished as to whether this is a tournament or a cash game. I would agree with folding KK preflop in a tournament, given a number of combined circumstances and a finite number of chips. Generally, in a cash game, though, folding KK preflop is incorrect across the board. Assume that when you're AIPF with KK and you win you'll get slightly better than even money each time. So if you win half of these hands you break even. I'm too lazy to post the math, but essentially, you'll win 20% of KK vs. AA anyway, and your opponent's pushing ranges might be wider than you think. Versus QQ or JJ or AK (and you'll see people push with much worse) you're the favorite and the overlay from all of them more than compensates for those times when you run into aces that hold up, giving you a profit over the long run. Seems to me it's a pretty well established tenet that in the cash game of life getting all your chips in with KK preflop whenver possible is +ev.

Just reading the first part, that's totally backwards.The variables in a cash game: Cards, OpponentsVariables in a tournament: Cards, Opponents, Blinds, *TIME*I'm never ever ever ever putting KK down pre-flop in a tournament (with the one exception of the Satellite/Qualifier where the top X get the same prize). In a cash game, time is not important at all, so mucking a hand that is marginally ahead of your opponent's in exchange for only losing a few BB is better than getting stacked.

[rgold79 0]

Just reading the first part, that's totally backwards.The variables in a cash game: Cards, OpponentsVariables in a tournament: Cards, Opponents, Blinds, *TIME*I'm never ever ever ever putting KK down pre-flop in a tournament (with the one exception of the Satellite/Qualifier where the top X get the same prize). In a cash game, time is not important at all, so mucking a hand that is marginally ahead of your opponent's in exchange for only losing a few BB is better than getting stacked.

In a tournament you have only a finite number of chips, which if you lose you can no longer play. For this reason, ROR must always be an important factor in considering a move. Assuming you practice smart BR management, in a cash game, you risk losing a single buy in, and can reload at any time. On the balance, am I advocating frequently folding KK preflop in a tournament? Absolutely not. If I felt I had even a small edge in the hand I'm running to put my chips in. However, if my read on a situation leads me to believe that my ROR might be too high to merit the benefit of calling in that situation, then, yes, I would consider laying them down - although off the top of my head I cannot remember this coming up frequently. Again, in a cash game, losing a single buy in is not going to cripple me, and given that over the long haul calling AIPF with KK is probably a profitable play, I can safely make the call every time knowing the worst possible outcome is the need to reload and start again.

[Zach6668 513]

Wow.I'm NEVER folding KK in a tourney.I've folded KK in a cash game before.Seriously. Dude has it backwards.

[rgold79 0]

Off the top of my head, I can't remember a single instance in which I have folded KK preflop in a tournament either. My point was that you may be able to make a better justification for it in a tournament setting, where ROR takes on greater importance.

[MasterLJ 0]

Off the top of my head, I can't remember a single instance in which I have folded KK preflop in a tournament either. My point was that you may be able to make a better justification for it in a tournament setting, where ROR takes on greater importance.

My original point was that since Time and Blinds are a factor in tournaments and not in cash games, people have greater motivation to push without the nuts... especially if they are familiar with any of the Harrington series books or concepts.

[Zach6668 513]

The pf pushing range in a tourney is 100 times greater than that of most players in a cash game.It's really not close.

[rgold79 0]

My original point was that since Time and Blinds are a factor in tournaments and not in cash games, people have greater motivation to push without the nuts... especially if they are familiar with any of the Harrington series books or concepts.

Right. I totally agree on this. I think I mentioned in my original response that it would have to be the result of a number of factors in combination to get me to consider letting them go. Top of that list would definitely be my stack and the pusher's in relation to the blinds and where we stood in the tournament. And yes, passing up an edge at any point in a tournament is stupid.

[rgold79 0]

The pf pushing range in a tourney is 100 times greater than that of most players in a cash game.It's really not close.

Again, totally true. My point was simply that by calling every time anyway, you will still win enough hands to make this a profitable play over the long term.

[Zach6668 513]

Again, totally true. My point was simply that by calling every time anyway, you will still win enough hands to make this a profitable play over the long term.

Well, yeah. I'm not saying it's not +EV. You'd have to be an complete moron to lose over the long haul with KK. However, it can be more +EV to not hold a broad statement like that to situations that can so different.Trust me on this. I was in the never fold KK camp. Then once, I had a tight player raise up front, I reraised, a shorty shovelled, and the tight player shovelled over top. We were like 150 BB's deep each. I laid down KK, only get see AA vs AK vs JJ, as another shorty called. Case K flopped, but that's beside the point. I avoided putting in 150 bbs while drawing to 1 out. I'd say, under the circumstances, that's a good fold. Cash game, btw.

[MasterLJ 0]

Well, yeah. I'm not saying it's not +EV. You'd have to be an complete moron to lose over the long haul with KK. However, it can be more +EV to not hold a broad statement like that to situations that can so different.Trust me on this. I was in the never fold KK camp. Then once, I had a tight player raise up front, I reraised, a shorty shovelled, and the tight player shovelled over top. We were like 150 BB's deep each. I laid down KK, only get see AA vs AK vs JJ, as another shorty called. Case K flopped, but that's beside the point. I avoided putting in 150 bbs while drawing to 1 out. I'd say, under the circumstances, that's a good fold. Cash game, btw.

Yeah, that's a pretty straightforward fold in a cash game. The real question is whether or not you can ever fold KK heads-up in a cash game?

[trystero 0]

Well, yeah. I'm not saying it's not +EV. You'd have to be an complete moron to lose over the long haul with KK. However, it can be more +EV to not hold a broad statement like that to situations that can so different.Trust me on this. I was in the never fold KK camp. Then once, I had a tight player raise up front, I reraised, a shorty shovelled, and the tight player shovelled over top. We were like 150 BB's deep each. I laid down KK, only get see AA vs AK vs JJ, as another shorty called. Case K flopped, but that's beside the point. I avoided putting in 150 bbs while drawing to 1 out. I'd say, under the circumstances, that's a good fold. Cash game, btw.

QFT. Once you start playing deepstacked cash games regularly you understand the possibility of folding KK preflop. I used to just play tournaments and folding KK pf in an online tournament is preposterous. I used to play shortstacked in cash games. Again, folding KK was preposterous. But those situations do come up - very rarely, but they do - in deepstacked cash games. Someone who's 14/3 over like 500 hands opens for a raise, I reraise and he shoves for 100 BBs more? Goodbye Kingz.This discussion kind of derailed the thread, though - the OP was suggesting a passive way to play KK pf against a certain type of player. Folding wasn't an option.