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Etiquette/rule Question: Showing Cards Proir To Making A Decision


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I have seen this discussed several times, but never saw a definitive answer. Situation: Home Cash GamePlayer A makes large bet with one remaining player in the hand - head's up. Player B goes into tank, pondering a call. Eventually he flips his cards over - revealing pocket 8s - and says: "What do you want me to do?"Player C the accepted floorman/director of activities IMMEDIATELY says: "That's not a fold, the hand is still live."Player A says something to the effect of: "That's crap"Player B says: "You must not want a call. I call."This was a topic of conversation all night. The way I understand this is that while it is a violation in tournaments, there is no specific rule governing this for a cash game - it varies as a "house rule". Since our gaming director ruled IMMEDIATELY, we decided that the move was legal and the play stood. I have seen it happen twice in Casinos and I believe once on a WSOP event. Certainly Jamie Gold told his hand numerous times while action was still live.The consensus of the "ethics" of the move seems to put it in the category of slow-rolling. It is just poor sportsmanship regardless of the "rule".

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According to Roberts Rules of Poker ...12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play.

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You're not allowed to tell other people your hole cards. Certainly showing them is breaking this rule. Jamie never actually told anyone what he had, he all but gave it away several times though. At the final table, he quickly flashed a Jack, which was waay over the line. THAT would have been a violation of the rule if they called the floor director over. Hold 'em is a game of incomplete information. When you reveal your hole cards it takes away several lines of thinking and you can read your opponent's reaction to the cards, which is information that that you don't have (his reaction to your hole cards).

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Tournament play and cash play are different situations though. Most places will allow you to show your cards in a cash game if you are the last action and it is heads up.It is just another way of getting information, and it is not affecting any one else.

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in our cash game i've done that a few times but haven't really said much to my opponent, i've done it just to see if i can get a reaction outta them. doing it while there is other people in the hand besides u and the person who made the bet/raise is out of line though.

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You can do this in most cash games and some places will allow you to do it in tournaments only if a player is all in and the person with the decision has final action, meaning only a call or fold options. All action must be final though, no raise option or other players can be in the hand. Again, rules cary from room to room and game to game in some cases.

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Player A says something to the effect of: "That's crap"
Why say anything?I don't think it's out of line if it's within the rules, as in a cash game (although this varies by casino). What's the difference between talking to get information and doing this? It's up to Player A not to reveal. It's not a tactic I use but I don't have a problem if someone uses it on me.
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You're not allowed to tell other people your hole cards.
I believe that what you will find is:In most Tournament Play, You're not allowed to tell other people your hole cards, if there are multiple players with remaining action.
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Why say anything?I don't think it's out of line if it's within the rules, as in a cash game (although this varies by casino). What's the difference between talking to get information and doing this? It's up to Player A not to reveal. It's not a tactic I use but I don't have a problem if someone uses it on me.
Frankly I see a post like this and I think "Online player who has rarely played Live or with Friends"Just because you CAN do something, doesn't meant you should or that it is going to be perceived as good sportsmanship. Frankly, I happen to agree with you, but any guy pulling this move is is in my not so humble opinion a jerk. Yes, Poker is about getting the mobney. But it is also a social game. And I happen to really like the social aspects of it. YMMV.By rule, you can crow about hitting a card on the river and beating a guy, but in many cases it is classless and not welcome if I am sitting at the table with you and certainly will not be tolerated in my house when it crosses the "line".
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Had something similar in a home game recently except the guy pondering a call asked if he could reveal his cards before he did. Host said yes.Regardless the guy who argued with the floor during a hand was an idiot. If you don't like the ruling say so after the hand. Never debate a rule question with the floor.

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OMG YAY NEW ETIQUETTE THREAD TO HIJACK?!?!?!
LMAOI saw this thread and IMMEDIATELY thought the same thing!
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Frankly I see a post like this and I think "Online player who has rarely played Live or with Friends"Just because you CAN do something, doesn't meant you should or that it is going to be perceived as good sportsmanship. Frankly, I happen to agree with you, but any guy pulling this move is is in my not so humble opinion a jerk. Yes, Poker is about getting the mobney. But it is also a social game. And I happen to really like the social aspects of it. YMMV.By rule, you can crow about hitting a card on the river and beating a guy, but in many cases it is classless and not welcome if I am sitting at the table with you and certainly will not be tolerated in my house when it crosses the "line".
+1The game is different when you're playing with friends, which a lot of the online pros don't seem to realize. We used to play a $20 buyin tournament every week, which was more of an opportunity to just sit around, bs with our friends for a couple hours, and have some fun. Unfortunately the online pro showed up one week with his sunglasses, poker gloves, and hooded sweatshirt and completely ruined the game by taking things FAR too seriously. No one there thought the point of the game wasn't to make money, it was to sit around and drink beer and have something to do on a Friday night. Mr. Online Pro changed that completely and the game dissolved. The etiquette of things like this very much have a "community standards" aspect to them.
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LMAOI saw this thread and IMMEDIATELY thought the same thing!
Well, we gotta let this thread die first, or Mark to go nuts on it and close the show, then we'll see.
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I've seen this many times. Only 2 players left in the hand; Player A goes ALL-IN. Player B has to think about a call and flips his cards over.There's no reason he can't do this, as him doing so has no effect on the outcome of the hand. If player A can't sit there and not react to seeing the other guys cards then that's his problem.I love it when people do this, as I rarely push ALL-IN in a cash game without a really strong hand or the nuts. So when that guy flips his cards over and I know I have him beat, it's pure bliss waiting for him to make the call. When you're beat and they fold, it's nice to know that your bet got them to lay it down.

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Cash game it's fine.Tournament, even if heads up in the hand, it's against the rules.Something about "protecting the other players in the tournament", even though they aren't in the hand. I'd love someone to explain this to me though. Yeah, you are affected by what happens in the hand, but you're affected even if the dude doesn't expose his cards.

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In a cash game, you can show cards. In a tournament, if you show cards (or a card) and someone asks for a ruling, you should be penalized - 10 minute sit out - regardless of whether it's heads up or not.
You say 10- minute penealty like its in the rules. That's WSOP, there are other rules out there regarding flashing cards etc... Usually it is ok if no one is left to act and the only options are to fold or call. It has no impact on the outcome of the hand - the only thing it does is give the rest of the players information they can use against you in the future. I'm not saying I totally agree with it, but it is legal in a lot of places.
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Cash game it's fine.Tournament, even if heads up in the hand, it's against the rules.Something about "protecting the other players in the tournament", even though they aren't in the hand. I'd love someone to explain this to me though. Yeah, you are affected by what happens in the hand, but you're affected even if the dude doesn't expose his cards.
in a tournament, every decision made affects every other player's equity in the tournament, if an action by a player changes the decision, it changes everyone's equity. Say it's the bubble, Player A moves all in in a heads up pot against Player B, who is covered by Player A. Player B is considering, he says "i've got the 2nd nuts, you have me beat?" and shows his cards, Player A gets a huge shit eating grin on his face because he can't help himself, Player B folds and the bubble doesn't burst. Player B would have called if he couldn't have shown his cards and gained the reaction he did, bursting the bubble and putting remaining players in the money.In a cash game in a heads up pot, it makes no difference to anyone else if i lose all my money or win all my opponents money, it only affects me and my opponent.
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You say 10- minute penealty like its in the rules. That's WSOP, there are other rules out there regarding flashing cards etc... I'm not saying I totally agree with it, but it is legal in a lot of places.
I'm talking about my experience in WSOP, WSOP Circuit, WPT, and at the Taj."but it is legal in a lot of places" ??? Please name these many places to which you refer.Also, CrazyJoe gave a good explanation as to why the rules are they way that they are:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...t&p=1592068
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I'm going to tell you a story, just because it makes me smile.I had 99 for nines full of jacks. I was playing against a curious maniac. I'd been betting the whole way. On the river, it looked like he might fold.So, I pulled the reverse of the classic 72o move. I told him I would show him one card and he could pick. At first he thought that I meant after he folded, but he straightened up when I explained he could see it immediately. He picked one of the nines and then called. Then, before I could turn over my second card, the dealer pushed forward JJ9 on the board and declared "Nines Full." He knows me pretty well.I showed the second card and collected my pot. :club:

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Frankly I see a post like this and I think "Online player who has rarely played Live or with Friends"Just because you CAN do something, doesn't meant you should or that it is going to be perceived as good sportsmanship. Frankly, I happen to agree with you, but any guy pulling this move is is in my not so humble opinion a jerk. Yes, Poker is about getting the mobney. But it is also a social game. And I happen to really like the social aspects of it. YMMV.By rule, you can crow about hitting a card on the river and beating a guy, but in many cases it is classless and not welcome if I am sitting at the table with you and certainly will not be tolerated in my house when it crosses the "line".
I understand the difference between someone having the "right" to do something, yet not being "right" to do so. But what the hell are you talking about?I play in home games, casino cash games and online. How is this person a "jerk"? Say you're in a home game. You're 4.5 beers in, and someone shows you their cards... they have a decent hand, yours is better. You pull out a Hachem classic, "It takes a big man to lay down a big hand." They call.How is that not fun?My friends would laugh their asses off at that entire situation. You say poker is a social game, and I guess it's situational. Our game? Nobody gives a crap...and FYI, same rules apply at the card room I frequent in LA and nobody feels the need to "shame" someone who pulls this move. Differing opinions are fine and I respect yours, but be careful not to judge people and their histories without knowledge.
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