When Is It Ok To Cheat At Poker ?

[BETNFOOL 0]

sitting next to a big stack, i glance over and can see his cards.(warning #1) hey that was a good fold. a few hands later(warning #2) good bluff. next hand (warning #3) u need to protect your cards. hope your Q's hold up.he covered his cards for about 20 min, then he was back to holding them were me and anyone in a 5 mile radius could see them.do you look and just keep up the warnings? its hard to play poker with your eyes closed. just wondering if this is cheating????topic should say " when is IT ok to cheat at poker"

[mtdesmoines 3]

sitting next to a big stack, i glance over and can see his cards.(warning #1) hey that was a good fold. a few hands later(warning #2) good bluff. next hand (warning #3) u need to protect your cards. hope your Q's hold up.he covered his cards for about 20 min, then he was back to holding them were me and anyone in a 5 mile radius could see them.do you look and just keep up the warnings? its hard to play poker with your eyes closed. just wondering if this is cheating????

I look at it as my own private resource of information. I don't tell him. I don't tell anyone else, either. It's just for me.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Not cheating. By rule, a player need to protect his hand.

[nutzbuster 7]

Cheating implys a pre-meditated attempt to deceive or gain by other than ethical means. A planned event.This is a little different. I always feel like BAD KARMA will befall me if I take advantage of a situation like this while playing. I usually tell a player if it's obvious I can see their cards, but I will only tell them once.Fair game after that, but even then I will not go out of my way to peek.

[revhq2646 0]

I look at it as my own private resource of information. I don't tell him. I don't tell anyone else, either. It's just for me.

I used to think that any information I could get at the poker table was fair game. The older I get the more I realize that this stuff will always come back to bite you. Call it karma, call it ethics, call it whatever you want, what ever you do at a poker table will be seen by someone. The thing is you are not just cheating Mr. Big Stack, you are cheating the rest of the table and that is collusion, you can get banned, and it theory go to jail. Even if you don't get caught, somebody sitting across the table from you may see what is going on and take offense. But based on his actions, the op already gets that, so the real question becomes how do you get him to protect his cards w/o pissing him off.

[psujohn 0]

If they guy holds up his card where you can see them without going out of your way - ie you don't have to lean over or stand behind him - then it's his fault and you're entittled to use that information to your advantage. In terms of "cheating" just think of it as a very accurate, very specific tell.

[James D 0]

I'd politely let him know that he is exposing his cards to everyone. If he continues to do it, then I just wouldn't look. Because someone will see you doing it anyway, and also... my focus would be on just his cards and not on the rest of the play at the table.

[psujohn 0]

I used to think that any information I could get at the poker table was fair game.

Any information you can get without cheating IS fair game. Having an advantage over the rest of the table is not collusion. It's good table selection.In almost every circumstance - be it home game or casino - I think it's ethically a good idea to inform the person that they're flashing their cards. Once you've done that if they continue to show their cards you shouldn't be forced to close your eyes or look away. That would put you at a competitive disadvantage and that's just stupid in a game like poker.

[Dratj 0]

it's not cheating if you can see your opponents cards. I usually tell them that I can see them and show them how to look at them properly. I figure if they can't even do that properly, they can't be all that good at poker and I'm going to beat them anyways.

[ShortStacked 0]

One or two warnings, after that its fair game if he/she chooses to not protect his/her cards properly.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

"Cheating" can be different from "Ethics"Cheating is not following the rules. Ethics......well with Ethics it gets tricky.Barry Bonds (assuming he used steroids prior to 2005 and not since) didn't Cheat - there was no rule in baseball banning their use. Was it ethical?

[IQCrash 1]

A fool and his money. You're playing poker, not working for the red cross. Zip your lip and stack him.

[delphi12 0]

Funny story regarding this. I was playing 10-20NL with two guys from Live At The Bike (if you ever watch that show) - Corporation Mike and Barry (dont call me greenstein) Woods. Barry woods had KT, Mike had 42. Mike saw Barry's hand and raised preflop to $100. Barry called. Flop came KQ4. Barry checked, Mike bet $300. Barry called. Turn was a 7. Barry checked, Mike bet $1000. Barry sat there and really pondered folding. Then Mike says, "hmm.. You must have KT. Pretty tough call there. I'd fold it." Barry called. Then the A hit. Barry checked, Mike bet $2500. Barry thought about for a while and finally called. Mike went ballistic calling out the suit of the cards before Barry turned them over - he bet as if he had KQ or AK and Barry still called him down. So just because you know what someone has, doesn't mean you can outplay them. Just remember that!

[elnino 0]

A fool and his money. You're playing poker, not working for the red cross. Zip your lip and stack him.

ultimately we are all trying to take people's money

[Byan_Railey 0]

I feel very strongly on this subject.This has happened to me twice, once while playing 5/10 limit HE and another while playing 6/12.I dont really care if you call it cheating or not, if you dont have to make an effort to see the players cards than I say look and use the information how ever you can. The player deserves NO warning. Protecting your cards is part of the game.For the most part you are only cheating the sucker to your right. I dont really feel that I am cheating everyone who is sitting down. The times it happend to me I never really factored my desisons off of his cards unless he was in the hand. It may come into play if you fold 77 because the guy to your right mucked a 7 but that is not a huge edge imo. I used it to isolate that player when I had him crushed and made him pay for it. If you sit down at 6/12 you dont deserve any help from the table. 2/4 I think about telling the guy.I see someone accross the table sneak a peak at the cards I could care less. If the sucker limps and the guy raises I know he has the best of it and I can fold and watch the show.I was having this convo a few months back on another site and someone brought up a good point. Someone claimed that doing this "hurts pokers image" or ruins the game. However what would Doyle or Slim (two of the grandfathers of the game) do in this siutation. You can bet your *** they are three betting the sucker every chance they get.i dont really care for Josh Arieh (spell?) but "we aren't playing tidly winks"

[James D 0]

I feel very strongly on this subject.

All depends on where and who you are playing though. And what stakes.For example, the stakes I play are waay below what I could realistically afford to play for. And often, it's with friends/acquaintences.. generally people I am going to see again. I play to win, of course, but it's just not worth it to me. I would prefer to tell him that his cards are visible. It wouldn't be worth getting caught looking at someone's cards to me. I'd feel a bit shady, and it would take away from the enjoyment aspect of the game.Now, if I was playing professionally and needed to take every possible edge, then maybe I couldn't resist looking. So I can understand why certain people would, but it's not for me.

[Byan_Railey 0]

All depends on where and who you are playing though. And what stakes.

For sure, If we are talking home games I am going to tell ther person even if I really dont know them (or like them).

[DunkinDonuts 0]

I feel very strongly on this subject.

The player deserves NO warning. Protecting your cards is part of the game.

I actually tend to agree with this approach... kind of like the "no affirmative duty to act" principle.

It may come into play if you fold 77 because the guy to your right mucked a 7 but that is not a huge edge imo. I used it to isolate that player when I had him crushed and made him pay for it.

Disagree here. Knowing for certain that one of your outs is gone is a significant edge, particularly when you exploit this edge over time.Isolating the player and crushing him because you know what he has is the biggest exploitation there is. Poker's a game of incomplete information. When you show your cards, you complete that information.You can rationalize it by stating that protecting cards is part of the game, but the "not that big of an edge" argument is wrong.

If you sit down at 6/12 you dont deserve any help from the table. 2/4 I think about telling the guy.

I vehemently disagree here. Limits should have no bearing on your interpretation of the rule. Think of it as the categorical imperative applied to poker. If you treat a 6/12 player differently from a 2/4 one, then you are adjusting your ethics according to your own subjective expectations of what players should know about the game based on what table they choose. If the issue of whether peeking is cheating applies to poker in its entirety, then the level of play is irrelevant; it's a question of whether peeking is within the confines of the rules. The rules don't change whether you're playing microlimits or throwing bricks of cash around.

[GABMAD 0]

I'm not old enough to play in casinos yet, but I'm wondering whether or not I should tell every1 if I see the bottom of the deck. The dealers likely are good at hiding it, but at friendly games, I always tell because I don't feel right playing with that extra advantage. When I win I want it to be because of skill and right moves, not because I knew my odds are a lil better because I saw the bottom card. So in a casino should I keep my mouth shut, or should I tell every1 that I saw the bottom card?As to the actual question, I think that after you've told him 3 times, it's ok to stop telling him as he is obviously really dumb and wont get the point. Don't try to peek but don't play with your eyes closed, look at where you would look if he wasn't holding his cards up like that. After 3 times, it's just annoying and it's his fault.

[freak2304 0]

I agree with the notion that it's each players own responsibility to protect their hole cards, so everything's fair game. Granted, calling down his huge bluff when you know he has 4 high and you have 7 high might give it away.

[GABMAD 0]

I agree with the notion that it's each players own responsibility to protect their hole cards, so everything's fair game. Granted, calling down his huge bluff when you know he has 4 high and you have 7 high might give it away.

raise all in.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I used to think that any information I could get at the poker table was fair game. The older I get the more I realize that this stuff will always come back to bite you. Call it karma, call it ethics, call it whatever you want, what ever you do at a poker table will be seen by someone. The thing is you are not just cheating Mr. Big Stack, you are cheating the rest of the table and that is collusion, you can get banned, and it theory go to jail. Even if you don't get caught, somebody sitting across the table from you may see what is going on and take offense. But based on his actions, the op already gets that, so the real question becomes how do you get him to protect his cards w/o pissing him off.

Hmm. So is reading a "tell" unethical, too? OK, if it's an old dude and he's having difficulty looking at his cards because of some physical limitation or whatever, I warn him. I'm friendly that way. But if he's stupid and careless ...

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

if it's an old dude and he's having difficulty looking at his cards because of some physical limitation or whatever, I warn him.

Me too.Once.Otherwise don't play in public if you cannot compete by the rules everyone else on the court can follow. This is why I stay away from basketball.This may be harsh, but I'd have voted against the AWD Bill too.

[snooptoddd 0]

I sat down across from an obvious newcomer in a $4/$8 game at the Venetian a few weeks ago who kept lifting his cards off the table, and the guy next to him was blatantly looking at his cards. After the newbie bet on the river (and the guy next to him folded), I told him he should protect his cards so that other players couldn't see them. The dealer actually paused the game to show the guy how to squeeze the cards and protect his hand, which I thought was a nice touch, actually, esp. considering the small stakes and inexperience of the player.The guy who was getting the free peek was throwing daggers at me, he was so pissed. To his credit, he didn't say anything, but he was not pleased that his advantage over this poor sap had disappeared. That said, when a new player sat next to me and did the same thing, I told her immediately that she was flashing her cards to me. At least the guy gave me a concilliatory glance since he knew I was willing to give up that information for myself too.

[Shizant 0]

Not cheating. By rule, a player need to protect his hand.

If a player is stupid enough to continuously expose their cards that's their problem. I'm going to use that to my advantage every time I can. Of course I’m not going to lean over to the side to see his cards, but if they’re exposed I’m looking.In the same mindset then in basketball you’d think that intentionally taking a charge or flopping with the smallest amount of contact cheating? No, its part of the game and the opposing team will take advantage of it every time they can.Or, in chess... If your opponent is going to make a move that leaves his Queen exposed and you know that you can take it in the next move, are you going to alert him of this? No, way.I think some times we all forget that Poker is a game/sport. In a sporting competition you will do everything possible to win.

OK, if it's an old dude and he's having difficulty looking at his cards because of some physical limitation or whatever, I warn him.

QFT