River Decision On Multiway Flush Card

[Bubba83 0]

Ultimate BetLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $2/$410 playersConverterPre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with 8 K UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.Flop: 3 7 8 (10.5SB, 5 players)Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.Turn: 5 (7.25BB, 4 players)Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.River: 5 (11.25BB, 4 players)Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero ?????Feel free to give advice on any play in the hand, however I'm mainly looking for advice on the river.

[Zach6668 513]

Numero Uno: I c/r the flop, but I don't hate the donkbet. I'd like to face most of the field with two cold.Numero Two: I call getting 12:1, but if it gets raised behind me, I'd prolly fold. I'd really not like to put more than one bet in at the river.

[Bubba83 0]

I didn't want MP3 checking the flop with overs. A continuation bet won't do him much good with 4 other players in the hand so I was afraid he would peel a card, which is a disaster.As for the river, what kind of hand do we beat that bets there? Also, while we are getting 12:1, that is not guaranteeing a showdown as one of the two players left to act behind us could be check raising.

[Zach6668 513]

I didn't want MP3 checking the flop with overs. A continuation bet won't do him much good with 4 other players in the hand so I was afraid he would peel a card, which is a disaster.As for the river, what kind of hand do we beat that bets there?

Yeah, I was worried about the check through, that's why I don't hate the donkbet here. I guess if we are ahead, he checks through, if we are behind he bets. I like the bet then. If he raises, we can c/f the turn UI.As for the the river, I think we beat a random donk who bluffs or bets a weaker hand 7.5% of the time.

[Bubba83 0]

Yeah, I was worried about the check through, that's why I don't hate the donkbet here. I guess if we are ahead, he checks through, if we are behind he bets. I like the bet then. If he raises, we can c/f the turn UI.

That was my line for the turn if he raised the flop.

As for the the river, I think we beat a random donk who bluffs or bets a weaker hand 7.5% of the time.

I don't think it's that clear cut as beating him 7.5% of the time when we are not closing the action.

[Zach6668 513]

I don't think it's that clear cut as beating him 7.5% of the time when we are not closing the action.

Well, I'd like to think, whether correct or not, lol, that the times we get overcalls, therefore decreasing the times we have to be right in order to call 1 bet on the river, balances out with the times that it gets raised and we have to fold.Btw, I advocate calling getting 12.25:1 the first time through, but I don't think I can call getting better odds if it gets raised after I call. Too much info that we are smoked. We at least have a little hope of a stupid donk bluff the first time through.

[Bubba83 0]

I'm curious to see what others think about the river. Keep them replies coming.

[Zach6668 513]

I'm curious to see what others think about the river. Keep them replies coming.

Me too

[TheCinciKid 0]

I fold pre-flop, call with K9s FWIW. Not sure that's correct, but that's the way I like to play. I don't like Kx. That said, calling pre-flop isn't terrible, and I like your flop and turn play. I like bet/folding this river. Checking puts you in a very precarious position, but if you're gonna check it should be to induce a bluff. The CO just bet, so either raise/fold, or call. I think raise/fold is slightly better b/c you don't really want overcalls.

[Zach6668 513]

Jeez, I didn't even realize we checked the river.I usually bet/fold as well.As played though, chances any of the players between us and the CO having the flush are incredibly slim, as they would have bet after our check. That's even more reason to call, as played.*********Cincy, why don't you want overcalls?

[TheCinciKid 0]

Jeez, I didn't even realize we checked the river.I usually bet/fold as well.As played though, chances any of the players between us and the CO having the flush are incredibly slim, as they would have bet after our check. That's even more reason to call, as played.*********Cincy, why don't you want overcalls?

I could be wrong, but this hand reminds me of the overcalls section in SSHE. Our hand isn't all that strong, but it possibly good against UTG's range. I don't remember exactly the logic that they talk about, but it seems like a good place to try to avoid overcalls. I'll check SSHE and maybe post more on this later. I need to go to bed now.

[Zach6668 513]

I could be wrong, but this hand reminds me of the overcalls section in SSHE. Our hand isn't all that strong, but it possibly good against UTG's range. I don't remember exactly the logic that they talk about, but it seems like a good place to try to avoid overcalls. I'll check SSHE and maybe post more on this later. I need to go to bed now.

I'd look if I could find my copy. I don't recall the hand. I just think we're probably ahead of their ranges anyways, so the overcalls don't bother me.EDITED to add that we now beat any 2 pair combos, aside from A8, so less to fear from the guys in the middle.

[TheCinciKid 0]

I'd look if I could find my copy. I don't recall the hand. I just think we're probably ahead of their ranges anyways, so the overcalls don't bother me.EDITED to add that we now beat any 2 pair combos, aside from A8, so less to fear from the guys in the middle.

Just looked at it. The kinds of hands their talking about are somewhat similar, but also kinda different from this. Presuming that they never overcall when we're ahead, overcall with hands that beat us 20% of the time and always fold to two cold, we make more money raising here. It would certainly be a major coup if we got something like 99 to fold. That's all I got for now, I'm honestly not sure where this falls.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, I know what you mean.I don't see hands that beat us playing the way they did.I suppose we sometimes see an over pair from MP3 here though, usually just overs though.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Yeah, I know what you mean.I don't see hands that beat us playing the way they did.I suppose we sometimes see an over pair from MP3 here though, usually just overs though.

By the way, all this discussion we've just gone through is a great argument for bet/fold being much easier and better here. I don't see any hand raising this river that we can beat, so I much prefer that line. Final analysis, I'll go with...Bet/fold > check/raise(CO's bet) > check/call(CO's bet) > check/fold

[Bubba83 0]

From my understanding a bet/fold river line here would be if we thought our bet could be for value. What hands do you think were calling us on the flop/turn that didn't improve their hand over ours? if they had 56 they caught trips, if they had a flush draw they hit it. If they had just overcards with no other draw, they missed and will fold to my river bet anyway.Also, I don't see how check/raise is ever a good line here. I think that's the worst possible option. Plus, we don't know it's going to be the CO who is betting on the river if we use a check/??? line.The last few posts about discussing how check/raise might be good is assuming we check and it checks to CO who bets. We have no reason to believe when we check that this is the way the hand will progress, so we can't say oh this would be good since the CO bet we could check raise because we don't have that information.Right now i'm liking Check/Call > Bet/Fold > Check/Fold > Check/RaiseOr maybe we could create a more versatile line like the one below:We could however check with the intention of calling if UTG+2 or MP3 bets, and intend to raise if it checks to CO and he bets. This combo line may be our best option if whoever can prove why SSHE check/raise might be good there, but keep in mind it's 2/4 so i don't know if we're ever folding an overpair to the board here like 99.

[Zach6668 513]

Well, let's see, weaker 8s will always call, smaller pairs, etc.I don't hate a c/c line. I see Cinci's c/r option, but I really don't care much for it, as I don't see any reason why the players in the middle would be ahead of us, aside from MP3 with something like 99 or TT.Thing is, we have two choices initially, check and evaluate when the action gets back to us, or bet/fold.If we check, and it gets bet by UTG+2, I'd have a hard time overcalling, but the pot is sooooo big, I'd do it closing the action. I would never call 2 bets if I checked.The thing about checking is that a flush is almost never going to check behind us, so once UTG+2 and MP3 check, we can almost always assume we are ahead of them, CO can be either betting his flush, or betting his position on the scare card. Given that, calling seems to be a lot better than folding, obviously. And since I think the two in the middle are weak, I don't like raising, as I'd rather get a desperation call from whatever they have.Bubba, any chance you can PM me the results?

[beans422 0]

I don't like calling with K8os preflop but I do it 99% of the time in this situation having so many bets in there. I bet this flop as well...while making it 2 bets cold to most of the field helps, the players b/t us and the pf raiser will also have to fear it being raised by the pf raiser. For my game, I steal a lot of pots by betting out in the blinds when lows flop so I rarely c/r when I hit a hand like tp in the blinds. Plus I think I get a better sense of where I'm at in the hand by betting out.On the river, I c/c. I just think if we're gonna b/f then we might as well spend that bet finding out how we're beat. In this large pot, occasionally we get a bluff and/or value bet from weaker hand. Plus, we can safely fold if we're faced with 2 cold.

[Bubba83 0]

Well, let's see, weaker 8s will always call, smaller pairs, etc.

The only player that could have a weaker 8 would maybe be UTG+2, MP3 wouldnt raise with one, and CO wouldn't cold call with one either. I know I didn't give stats or reads on either of these players, mostly because I think stats based on small samples are horribly overrated, but these are mostly random opponents that wouldn't do anything overly stupid like raise a bad 8 or call a raise with one. Smaller pairs would most likely fold the flop or turn, the only one that would stay til the river unless the guy is a really terrible player is 66 in my opinion. On the river 66 would most likely fold after missing the open ended draw and anyone with a 5 that they were beating on the turn improving to trips.I just don't think we're getting much value on our bet. I think a LOT of times someone has a flush here the way the hand played out on the flop/turn. With that being said, we're wasting money everytime we bet/fold there when a check/re-evaluate and possibly fold if theres a bet/raise situation would get us away cheaper.Check/Call and Bet/Fold seem like the best options to me, with varying opinions on which is better when it is probably pretty trivial.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, I like check/call.

[Bubba83 0]

I don't like calling with K8os preflop but I do it 99% of the time in this situation having so many bets in there.

It was suited, and yes I'm BB so it's discounted and there's a lot of people in there already.

[Zach6668 513]

It was suited, and yes I'm BB so it's discounted and there's a lot of people in there already.

Preflop is fantastic.

[Actuary 3]

w/o reading replies...I know it's 9.5 : 1 but the I'd want a read before calling preflop. So, we'll assume it's fine.Flop: I like the lead. With big pot, a c/r still gived 14:2 odds to the others. With a lead, you can see if anyone raises w/o putting in 2 bets first. Also, it never gets checked through.3 callers, yuk. But that can be expected with that board and the pot size.You just have a lot of cards to dodge and no idea which ones, really, are going to hurt you.I would assume you are ahead; however, with no raises on that dangerous board.Turn: yeah, keep leading. Probably a safe card, and if not, you can find out now. Darn pickle calling preflop gets us into.River: I don't like b/f because I don't think enough worse hands call. imo, you are either now beat, were always beat by a timid hand, or will now pick off a bluff, or will get folds from missed overs and missed other non-flush draws. I think the pot is big enough that UTG and MP3 could have stuff like TJs and AQ. CO could make this bet with missed overs as well seeing that no one has bet the flush card yet. Seeing you check, would likely lead to any flush now betting, rather than going for a c/r. So I don't think you have to worry about a raise behind you.In sumary, I think most better hands would have raised earlier or bet the river. If you know the CO (and UTG) to be very passive, folding the river is good. Under normal circumstances, I like a call here. Now if we review this hand in total, we paid 3.5 BB to win about 8.5 BB's. If no one with a worse hand calls behind us. And we get to river with TP2k and that TP is an 8, on a paired board with a flush draw hitting vs 3 callers on the turn. Something tells me that this hand should be folded preflop because there are not enough playable flops OOP. Other than that, I can't find a misplayed street. **** read replies, I'm very limit rusty ********

[Zach6668 513]

**** read replies, I'm very limit rusty ********

Preflop is fine.If you're rusty, then so am I because what you said is pretty much what my mind went through. I think you are doing just fine.

[akishore 0]

this is a good hand for discussion, and unfortunately it seems that everyone is all over the place. so here are my two cents, take them for what it's worth.preflop is a call, and i don't think it's that close. assuming you have a decent postflop edge, you have a decent multiway hand.flop is a checkraise, but it's close because actuary is right that we find out for cheaper if someone has a strong hand if they raise. but, i disagree because the board is so draw-heavy, we really want to make the field face two. and also, realize that flush draws and oesds will frequently raise your flop bet, so it's not quite so black-and-white as "a raise means we're behind". and pfr'ers frequently raise a flop bet here with AK if they're aggro. actually the more i think about it, the more i dislike leading out here, but i don't know this game texture.the river is the interesting street. here are my thoughts.a check/raise is really wrong imo. the idea of a checkraise here is that you are trying to isolate a worse hand and make better hands fold. you have 8's up, what better hand will fold behind you? rarely A-8, rarely 8-7, and... that's about it. no flush folds, no boat folds.however, the chances of a better hand from the people who checked are pretty low, since you have been the only one showing aggression so far postflop, and so it makes it less likely that they would check.but if we consider MP3, the preflop raiser, he usually has overcards or an overpair. does he bet both equally here? probably not. so by checking, we let him value bet us and check behind sometimes with his missed overcards.yikes, i really hate checking this river. it's a clear bet/fold to me. it's a value bet because overcards from MP3 will frequently call, and don't underestimate how many worse hands will call this river after getting this far (it's just one more bet, they missed their straight draw but have a pair of 7's to go with it, it might be good, etc.). it's a fold to a raise because almost nothing raises this river that you beat.given the check, i think call >>> raise.aseem