Off Beat Starting Hands

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'm not gonna comment on these

Look back and you will clearly see that I warned you.

[Zach6668 513]

Look back and you will clearly see that I warned you.

lol, I know, hence my

[flintsword 4]

Chewybarber,Raising with Offbeat starting hands can be good and it depends on what context you do it in. You may have folded the past 15 hands because they were all lousy hands and your table image allows you to snap up some blinds with any two cards. This is a situation where your read of the table and your image is the key factor. Grabbing blinds with a horrible hand has the same result as grabbing the blinds with AA, AQ, AJ, etc. In the grand stream of hands you will get, it leaves more 'good' hands to get challenged later.There is literally nothing better in a good poker game to apply game theory and raise with 92o with a tight image, win the blinds, get AJ next hand, do it again, this time with cards, and then get a run of great cards after that like QQ, KK, AK, etc. . You *will* get played with and hopefully, you positive EV with the better hands will reward your stack.I remember a very good player writing in a poker magazine something that I had heard before, but for some reason, it hit me with a lot of force:"Before the flop, everyone is a dog" The trouble with hands like 92o, is that the dog is very small (Sorry Mushu) and you have to hit the flop exactly or be able to convince an opponent who also has not connected with the flop that you have B) .SO I guess I am saying that raising with junk hands for the purposes of grabbing the blinds if the table is such that it is a sound strategy is ok.That said, one poster brought up a very valid point to your example of 92 hitting a flop of 99K against an opponent with AK: It will not win against players that are good enough to make a read that you have a better hand than top pair top kicker.This situation will invariably occur late in a tournament (when the better players have been decanted into the top few tables) and it will occur on a poker game with good players. Overdo 92 raises at a table with good players and you will soon be looking into the business end of a substantial reraise.It would be great if DN would write something about raising with strange hands seeing that it apears to be a specialty of his, but who knows, ... ... it may be in his book coming out soon.Last comment here, I was watching one of the NL WSOP games this year and Carlos Mortenson was in a game and one other player at the table was taking down opponent after opponent with strange holdings, exactly as you theorized, by hitting trips with a random hand. One guy got bounced holding top pair, top kicker to trip 7s by this player holding 57o and raising that in MP. I remember Carlos giving the winner a sharp, predatory look, and sure enough, a few hands later, started reraising him on a regular basis. Soon I was only watching Carlos because the looser raiser had pushed too marginal a hand too far and Carlos had a solid hand to win all of his chips.Hope my comment helps out. The game theory chapter of Theory of Poker by Sklansky remains one of my favourite reads. You can (and should) bluff at a pot once in a while, but it is a thin line dictated by your playing environment and the players at your table. Good luck in your games!

[psujohn 0]

People who say "never play rags" seem to be missing an important piece of the game. That is in the right situation with the right opponents your cards don't matter. A couple limpers, you limp with rags on the B, weak tight player raises from the BB, limpers fold you call. Flop all small cards, BB checks, you bet, he folds. Your cards don't matter. If you can with some regularity take away pots from people with having a made hand your cards really don't matter. If you realize that in holdem unpaired hole cards only make a pair on the flop like 40% of the time and you know that your opponent defines a fairly narrow range with his PF raise you can play ATC profitably - or at the very least break even. And when your 52s flops a full house - like mine did last night - you can get paid off big time by the guy who thinks his rivered pair of QQs is good.You can also use rags to beat up your opponents when you're card dead and have a tight table image. A couple EP limpers, your raise on the B with rags, two callers, flop A high, check, check - your bet is highly likely to take down the pot.The trick in all of these is to be sure that you NEVER lose a big pot with rags that don't hit HARD. If your 83o hits an 8 high flop you need to be willing to let it go if you face any resistance.

[mtdesmoines 3]

The trick in all of these is to be sure that you NEVER lose a big pot with rags that don't hit HARD. If your 83o hits an 8 high flop you need to be willing to let it go if you face any resistance.

Exactly. .. I mean... you won't catch me playing unconnected rags except out of my blinds, but if you're gonna play em, you gotta learn to let em go go. Bet and fold. Don't call with rags.

[Sluggo 0]

You guys are crazy! 93o should definitely be played in some circumstances.Good players mix up their strategy.Playing 93o is mixing up your strategy.Therefore, playing 93o will make you a good player.By the way, this same logic is why I occasionally* fold AA when it's limped to me in the big blind.*When the second hand of my watch is pointing to an even number. Good players** use game theory!**Good players also buy digital watches

[navybuttons 15]

You guys are crazy! 93o should definitely be played in some circumstances.Good players mix up their strategy.Playing 93o is mixing up your strategy.Therefore, playing 93o will make you a good player.By the way, this same logic is why I occasionally* fold AA when it's limped to me in the big blind.*When the second hand of my watch is pointing to an even number. Good players** use game theory!**Good players also buy digital watches

i think open folding AA in the BB 1/10 times is probably not optimal. lol.i agree with the rest of it (see my post somewhere else in this thread). i think game theory is an often overlooked necessity at this forum.edit: i can't find my other post in this thread. it says i'll play any from any position if the circumstances are right. and i can prove that the play is a +EV one.

[Sluggo 0]

i think open folding AA in the BB 1/10 times is probably not optimal. lol.

Well, maybe... If you assume you can play well postflop then I guess you can justify basically anything.

[psujohn 0]

The home game I play in has a number of players with the habit of open folding. There are times when no single card can make you willing to call a bet so it's not too ridiculous. I don't do it often - maybe once every other night. The other day I had 97o in the BB flop was something like KKT 4 players in the hand. I open fold the flop it checks around. Turn 5 it checks around. River 9 it checks around. Someone wins the hand with KK55T. I won't open fold anymore. Though the $0.80 pot isn't going to be missed much.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Well, maybe... If you assume you can play well postflop then I guess you can justify basically anything.

Wang: (on the button, looks down at 86o) "I raise to 250"SB foldsBB: "I'm all in for 24,000 more."Wang: (rechecks cards) "Alright, lets go. I'll call ya."BB: (tables KK)Wang: (shows 86o)Wang's friend: "What... what on Earth is wrong with you."Wang: "Shh! I'll just outplay him after the flop!"Wang's friend: "I hate you."Flop:K22Wang

[Abbaddabba 0]

Turn 2, river 2.Chop it up!Half of a small blind. Pure profit.(they were doing session fees)

[DoinSublime 0]

I don't know, I've never just scooped the blinds with a call.Ok, then there is some truth to what I said.The reason you raise is to represent strength, and the reason you represent strength is to drive out what might currently be weaker hands that could develop strength during play. Do I hope someone calls? Yes, but the brunt of my raise is to drive off weaker hands.Oh, and I did say (the majority of the time) in other words, in my opinion, at my levels, raising most big hands 3x BB isn't a great play. That being said, I do raise many hands pre-flop, just not as often as I might if I were either playing at a higher limit, or in a tourney. Anyway, the point of this thread was about when if ever some people might play the off beat starting hand, and it seems that the majority are just dead set against it.

-sw-Dude, I totally agree. You really need to change your game up every so often to keep your opponents off balance , and everyone here just seems to play way too tight.So, where do you play at? What is your screename?

[Jennings7 0]

To give the simple answer, playing terrble whole cards like 9-2 or 8-3 or even 10-5 or 9-4 is RARELY ever a good idea. If you are new to poker it will almost never be a good idea.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

There are certain situations where you can profitably call a bet with any two cards. But if you have to ask this question, you probably won't be able to identify them...Wang

[Shimmering Wang 1]

To give the simple answer, playing terrble whole cards like 9-2 or 8-3 or even 10-5 or 9-4 is RARELY ever a good idea. If you are new to poker it will almost never be a good idea.

But playing terrible HALF cards like 4.5-1, 4-1.5, 5-2.5, or 4.5-2 is ALWAYS a good idea. Can you imagine how tricky that would be?