Simple Razz Hand:

[Comatose_Soul 0]

PokerStars Game #7091652894: Razz Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/11/19 - 17:38:21 (ET)Table 'Selene' 8-maxSeat 1: jarofflies11 ($44.65 in chips) Seat 3: bivy ($40 in chips) Seat 4: Camz2895 ($65.40 in chips) Seat 5: HORSE1984 ($16.45 in chips) Seat 8: tsooris ($8.80 in chips) jarofflies11: posts the ante $0.10bivy: posts the ante $0.10Camz2895: posts the ante $0.10HORSE1984: posts the ante $0.10tsooris: posts the ante $0.10*** 3rd STREET ***jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d]bivy [3c 5c 2h]Camz2895 [-- -- 9c]HORSE1984 [-- -- 3s]tsooris [-- -- Qs]tsooris: brings-in low $0.50jarofflies11: raises $0.50 to $1bivy: calls $1Camz2895: folds HORSE1984: calls $1tsooris: foldsWorth a re-raise here with the two and three paired? I'm not a fan of re-raising on 3rd, but curious what others think. What type of situations do you like to re-raise on 3rd? *** 4th STREET ***Dealt to jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d] [Th]Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h] [9s]Dealt to HORSE1984 [-- -- 3s] [Jd]bivy: bets $1HORSE1984: folds jarofflies11: calls $1*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d Th] [6d]Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h 9s] [8c]bivy: bets $2jarofflies11: calls $2I could have actually check-called here. He could easily be ahead.*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d Th 6d] [Ts]Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h 9s 8c] [Kc]bivy: bets $2jet_or2 joins the table at seat #6 jarofflies11: calls $2*** RIVER ***Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h 9s 8c Kc] [9h]bivy: checks jarofflies11: checks This situation seems to happen a lot - going into 7th with the best hand, but not improving. Any suggestions here? Player dependent? For a long time I would bet here, but I felt like I simply was not getting enough crying calls to make it profitable long-term.~cs aka bivy

[Ricer98 0]

I think this is a spot where I like 3 betting on 3rd. With 3 cards five and lower we figure to have the best hand so I like throwing in a raise there. If I remember right I've heard, or read somewhere, razz is a game of pushing small edges, which would fit this situation. Raising here is also going to hopefully get a few marginal hands, that could take the lead if we hit a high card on 4th, out. Speaking from playing Razz in the .50-1.00 H.O.R.S.E. games on stars, I also think might get people calling 3 bets with hands as bad as 8 or 9 low, such as the guy showing a 3 up. 4th and 5th street are played out fine except I have a serious problem with your analaysis on 5th street. You say you could have check called here he could easily be ahead, wrong. He has a 10 showing, which means no matter what his hole cards are there is no way you are beat here. Always bet this, make him pay to draw out, don't let him get there for free.I like the check on the end since our hand didn't improve any. If he has any common sense at all, although most people I've seen play this game don't, I don't think your getting a call if he didn't improve on the river. And, if he did improve your probably getting raised because if he makes a 7 or lower he should know there's no way you have him beat. Getting 7-1 odds I think a call if he bets is pretty close. While you can't beat hardley anything he should be betting here, the play at these levels is so horrible I think we can put him on a bluff with a worse hand enough to atleast break even. Although if you have him pegged as one of the few that understands the game and not a total donk then you probably have to fold.

[Comatose_Soul 0]

4th and 5th street are played out fine except I have a serious problem with your analaysis on 5th street. You say you could have check called here he could easily be ahead, wrong. He has a 10 showing, which means no matter what his hole cards are there is no way you are beat here. Always bet this, make him pay to draw out, don't let him get there for free.

Actually he's a small favorite if he has Ax3x, Ax4x, Ax5x, 3x4x, 3x5x, or 3x7x (think thats all of'em.) He raised on 3rd, so I'm giving him a little credit for a hand, although he could have paired his 6 or had a much worse starting hand. If your playing with a strong player though, you will often get raised here if they have any of the previously mentioned hands.Ran #s using http://twodimes.net, apologize if my numbers are off any.

[gkunit20 1]

PokerStars Game #7091652894: Razz Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/11/19 - 17:38:21 (ET)Table 'Selene' 8-maxSeat 1: jarofflies11 ($44.65 in chips) Seat 3: bivy ($40 in chips) Seat 4: Camz2895 ($65.40 in chips) Seat 5: HORSE1984 ($16.45 in chips) Seat 8: tsooris ($8.80 in chips) jarofflies11: posts the ante $0.10bivy: posts the ante $0.10Camz2895: posts the ante $0.10HORSE1984: posts the ante $0.10tsooris: posts the ante $0.10*** 3rd STREET ***jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d]bivy [3c 5c 2h]Camz2895 [-- -- 9c]HORSE1984 [-- -- 3s]tsooris [-- -- Qs]tsooris: brings-in low $0.50jarofflies11: raises $0.50 to $1bivy: calls $1Camz2895: folds HORSE1984: calls $1tsooris: foldsWorth a re-raise here with the two and three paired? I'm not a fan of re-raising on 3rd, but curious what others think. What type of situations do you like to re-raise on 3rd? *** 4th STREET ***Dealt to jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d] [Th]Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h] [9s]Dealt to HORSE1984 [-- -- 3s] [Jd]bivy: bets $1HORSE1984: folds jarofflies11: calls $1*** 5th STREET ***Dealt to jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d Th] [6d]Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h 9s] [8c]bivy: bets $2jarofflies11: calls $2I could have actually check-called here. He could easily be ahead.*** 6th STREET ***Dealt to jarofflies11 [-- -- 2d Th 6d] [Ts]Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h 9s 8c] [Kc]bivy: bets $2jet_or2 joins the table at seat #6 jarofflies11: calls $2*** RIVER ***Dealt to bivy [3c 5c 2h 9s 8c Kc] [9h]bivy: checks jarofflies11: checks This situation seems to happen a lot - going into 7th with the best hand, but not improving. Any suggestions here? Player dependent? For a long time I would bet here, but I felt like I simply was not getting enough crying calls to make it profitable long-term.~cs aka bivy

1. Reraise here. Odds are slim that he can beat a 5.2. No, he couldn't be ahead. You have a 9, and the best he could have is a T.3. The check on 7th is fine. If you improved your hand, you would bet.

[Comatose_Soul 0]

2. No, he couldn't be ahead. You have a 9, and the best he could have is a T.

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, but running the numbers for the hands I listed in the post immediately above yours shows me as a slight dog to some hands. Chris Fargis actually just wrote about this situation today:http://twentyoneoutstwice.blogspot.com/EDIT: After going through the odds, posting, and responding I'm fine with the bet on 5th. Even if seat 1 has a solid hand we are pretty damn close to 50/50. Chris uses a much more extreme example in his blog post above.

[Ricer98 0]

I think were talking about different things here. I'm talking strickly on the current street we have the best hand, not the odds he has to improve. Not betting when we know we have the current best hand just doesn't make any sense in my opinion. A good example would be a similar situation in hold'em. Say we have 89s vs JTs and the flop comes 89x with the 8 and 9 in the villans suit. We are technically a 48.5% to 51.5% percent underdog, but you'd never give a free card in this situation and wait until he misses the turn and you the favorite to bet would you. With this logic I'm betting in this spot every time regardless of overall odds.

[HangukMiguk 8]

2. No, he couldn't be ahead. You have a 9, and the best he could have is a T.

He's not ahead in the hand, but we assume he has any kind of draw that isn't drawing to T high, he is the favorite against a 98 low.Check/Call is good, but a bet isn't horrible either.

3. The check on 7th is fine. If you improved your hand, you would bet.

That's still even iffy with a made 8 considering he has been calling down this whole time. We can assume he may have a 7 draw. It depends on the opponent and his starting range.

[KVOM 0]

In SS1 the recommendation is not to raise on 3rd and signal a very strong hand. In addition, you being a good player will fold on 4th and 5th streets more often than the opposition thus losing less when bricked.

[dereeekho 0]

In SS1 the recommendation is not to raise on 3rd and signal a very strong hand. In addition, you being a good player will fold on 4th and 5th streets more often than the opposition thus losing less when bricked.

I think it was a very archaic comment. There are times where you need to raise 3rd street to bump out weak callers/build pot.

[dingas 0]

The just-call on 3rd with a big hand is a powerful play. It is very hard for your opponent to put you on a monster hand and he will pay you off drawing thin later on. I like doing this in tournaments where people tend not to be able to get away from their hands after 5th. (I've also been trapped in this manner many times).The times I like a 3-bet are when there are intervening callers, or, obviously when playing with weak players who will call two cold with absolute rubbish.As for 5th, I don't know how likely it is that you are behind. I mean, he could have paired the 6, or he could have started with a 7 or 8 or worse since it is only 5-handed. Giving him a free card when he has paired and would fold to a bet is a much bigger mistake than betting and getting raised when you are a 45:55 dog, so I like a bet. (On a similar theme, see the hand I posted last week where I checked 5th and 6th with the current best hand because I knew I was behind.)Just a comment on a previous post: A good example would be a similar situation in hold'em. Say we have 89s vs JTs and the flop comes 89x with the 8 and 9 in the villans suit. We are technically a 48.5% to 51.5% percent underdog, but you'd never give a free card in this situation and wait until he misses the turn and you the favorite to bet would you. With this logic I'm betting in this spot every time regardless of overall odds.Yes you would give a free card in this situation if villain checked to you. And if he bet you would just call. If you held the JTs you would put in as much money as you could. The best hand is the hand that has the best chance to win at showdown, period. This concept does not come up in Holdem too often, but in Razz, Omaha, and Stud HiLo it is basically the key concept separating the bad players from the good players. For example in Stud8 if you have KK89 against A234, the correct play would be to fold. If in Razz you have KQJ10 against 6654, the correct play is to fold. In Omaha8, if you have 10JQK against Ac2c9d9h on a 7c8c9d flop, you should fold. You need to understand this to succeed in poker.

[scottyno 0]

Just a comment on a previous post: A good example would be a similar situation in hold'em. Say we have 89s vs JTs and the flop comes 89x with the 8 and 9 in the villans suit. We are technically a 48.5% to 51.5% percent underdog, but you'd never give a free card in this situation and wait until he misses the turn and you the favorite to bet would you. With this logic I'm betting in this spot every time regardless of overall odds.Yes you would give a free card in this situation if villain checked to you. And if he bet you would just call. If you held the JTs you would put in as much money as you could. The best hand is the hand that has the best chance to win at showdown, period. This concept does not come up in Holdem too often, but in Razz, Omaha, and Stud HiLo it is basically the key concept separating the bad players from the good players. For example in Stud8 if you have KK89 against A234, the correct play would be to fold. If in Razz you have KQJ10 against 6654, the correct play is to fold. In Omaha8, if you have 10JQK against Ac2c9d9h on a 7c8c9d flop, you should fold. You need to understand this to succeed in poker.

your examples are all meaningless because there is no way to know exactly what hand you are up against, with the 89 you should bet every single time its checked to you, same with the omaha hand. The stud 8 hand if you knew what he had it would actually be correct to call on 5th every time given pot odds, and the razz hand is of course an easy fold because you are way behind.

[dingas 0]

your examples are all meaningless because there is no way to know exactly what hand you are up against, with the 89 you should bet every single time its checked to you, same with the omaha hand. The stud 8 hand if you knew what he had it would actually be correct to call on 5th every time given pot odds, and the razz hand is of course an easy fold because you are way behind.

Well you're right that my examples are pretty meaningless, but the point is that in some cases you have to check or even fold with the current best hand. Actually I don't agree with you about stud8. If you have (K8)K9 heads up against (xx)3A, you fold to a bet (let's assume that villain is a good player who called your raise on 3rd), and against (xx)34 it is a clear check with a possible fold to a bet (you are a dog against villains range here, you need to pay 3.5 big bets to see show-down, and villain can play almost perfectly on later streets - for example on 6th if he catches a 6 which pairs him, he can check behind, and on 7th if he misses everything he can check behind, but if he hits he will be betting all along and you will be forced to call, meaning you're going to be committing more to the pot when your hand is a loser than when your hand holds up. Plus since it's headsup, the dead money is probably not going to be enough to make calling a profitable play.)