Dn Article In Canadian Poker Player

[Zach6668 513]

Ok, so I looked for a while, but couldn't find an online version of this article, so I'm going to quote it as best as I can.It's from the September 2006 CPP issue, called something like "Poker Tools" where he talks about using the WPT as a way to learn how the top players play/think, etc.Anyways, the part that bothers me is the first paragraph, or maybe the second one.It reads something like the following:

• In order to improve your play, you can read the Sklansky books, ... or you can even go to one of the online sites like RGP, 2+2, or [other random forum] to learn more and more about poker.

My problem is that he doesn't mention the FCP strategy forum. Are we that far behind the sites like 2+2, P5s, etc, in terms of offering a place to actually learn the game? I learned almost everything I know about poker from coming to the strat section every day, and now I contribute there a ton. I felt a bit slighted, and I think all the regular strat posters should feel a bit slighted by the lack of mention with the other strat forums, one of which I hadn't even heard of.I mean, it's entirely possible that I'm making too much of this, and it probably is, but it just kinda rubbed me the right way. Of course, it is also possible that he's not supposed to plug his own site in the articles, but I thought I'd seen him mention it before.Anyways, just my 2 cents. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or even a link to the article?- Zach

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Are we that far behind the sites like 2+2, P5s, etc, in terms of offering a place to actually learn the game?

Yes and no. As far as pure poker minds, there's some very good posters--Abba, Cobalt, Actuary, Scott, and I could name more, that I'd say are comparable/better than a lot of 2+2ers(I have no idea about Pocket5's as compared to our tournament section, though, I think all the posters that crush tournaments might say something). As far as interesting contributions and a variety of hands to analyze, they have us crushed. It seems like the posters who submit hands, on 2+2 are more thoughtful and post their hands with a genuine purpose. I think we could do a lot to make our strat forum better, though. I might even be interested in helping.I think it's also a huge disservice to shove the stategy forums beneath FCP Poker Leagues, Daniel's Poker Blog, Protege Forum, Negreanu Challenge, FCP Weekend, Photo Gallery, Daniel In The Media, Daniel's Poker Results and all that mess. Quite frankly, you could cut about 8 of those with the ability to use Sub-Forums on this new software. I think a general overhaul of the set up would be amazingly helpful.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I dont think the fcp forums can compare to the 2+2s. They have dozens of successful high stake regulars. Daniel doesnt count if he only posts one thread and a few responses per month.The midstake forums there are basically filled to the brim with people who play professionally (obviously mixed in with vocal mediocre players like any poker forum). Here we have a handfull at most.Our small stakes / micro forums are fairly competitive though.

[Zach6668 513]

I think we could do a lot to make our strat forum better, though. I might even be interested in helping. I think it's also a huge disservice to shove the stategy forums beneath FCP Poker Leagues, Daniel's Poker Blog, Protege Forum, Negreanu Challenge, FCP Weekend, Photo Gallery, Daniel In The Media, Daniel's Poker Results and all that mess. Quite frankly, you could cut about 8 of those with the ability to use Sub-Forums on this new software. I think a general overhaul of the set up would be amazingly helpful.

There's a thread in Gen Strat about Strat forum improvements, and pretty much, I'd be up to do anything to help contribute to the improvement of the forms.

I dont think the fcp forums can compare to the 2+2s. They have dozens of successful high stake regulars. Daniel doesnt count if he only posts one thread and a few responses per month.The midstake forums there are basically filled to the brim with people who play professionally (obviously mixed in with vocal mediocre players like any poker forum). Here we have a handfull at most.Our small stakes / micro forums are fairly competitive though.

Yeah, you're bang on there, for sure. FCP is a ton smaller, and definitely newer than 2+2, and we haven't grown with the MSHE, and HSHE sections, but I fear the way things are going, we never will. I mean, I don't know what DN's intentions are/were with the Strat section, but being as FCP is pretty much the only forum I post at, I have like 50 posts at 2+2, I feel very strongly for this place, and would love to see if one day be able to compete with 2+2, not that it's a competition, but we know what I mean, I hope.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I mean, I don't know what DN's intentions are/were with the Strat section, but being as FCP is pretty much the only forum I post at, I have like 50 posts at 2+2, I feel very strongly for this place, and would love to see if one day be able to compete with 2+2, not that it's a competition, but we know what I mean, I hope.

I think if we brought our concerns, thoughts and ambitions to Daniel, he'd be very welcoming to it--he might even get behind it for a few days and actually make some posts, heh. (Psst..I have an in or two with him).As far as mid stakes, I know a lot of players I could draw MSNLHE hand histories from, as well as my own 5/10 game. I know a player or two who play 10/20 NL and up that I could bother for hand histories. I think it would also help if some posters wrote some occasional articles--something I wouldn't mind doing either.

[Zach6668 513]

I think if we brought our concerns, thoughts and ambitions to Daniel, he'd be very welcoming to it--he might even get behind it for a few days and actually make some posts, heh. (Psst..I have an in or two with him).As far as mid stakes, I know a lot of players I could draw MSNLHE hand histories from, as well as my own 5/10 game. I know a player or two who play 10/20 NL and up that I could bother for hand histories. I think it would also help if some posters wrote some occasional articles--something I wouldn't mind doing either.

Yeah, these are all awesome. Do it all... lol.I mentioned in that thread in strat to do something like a monthly "newsletter" type post similar to 2p2 where they take the best, most interesting, intriguing threads, etc. Could even start to draw some more of the non-standard threads.

[CobaltBlue 662]

It might be crass and lead to an influx of useless threads, but some sort of contest for interesting hands/strategy posts might spark some volume. Just brainstorming a bit.

[fleung22 1]

It might be crass and lead to an influx of useless threads, but some sort of contest for interesting hands/strategy posts might spark some volume. Just brainstorming a bit.

That's exactly what it will do...just add useless garbage from people who don't really care.2+2 has been around for a while and most people who are serious about strategy will at LEAST visit that site and for many that is the only site. I've been there a few times and it's really a weath of information.I like the strat section in FCP because of the family feel but if I have a real problem or dilemma I'll post on both.

[zipper 0]

never mind

[TB17 0]

We barely have any high stake pros that constantly contribute, therefore it's not gonna be as popular. It may be shallow, but that's how it is. Just having Daniel contribute won't be the same. A lot of the pros here stick to themselves and would rather help themselves out or close friends. They are not that active in the strat forums. If I have a HH I don't post it here, I just PM certain people and they help me. The insight they give is much better than the insight I get here, which is not an insult, because these players are just simply better than the players in our strat forum. And I'm not gonna name names because I don't want them to be bothered as well.

[Adam 0]

The article was written in Cardplayer's Volume 16, Number 9, about four years ago. FCP didn't boom until.. 2 years ago?What the Canadian Poker Player magazine does is just recycles old cardplayer articles from earlier in Negreanu's poker career. They may be old, but they still have great value.Ha - come on, don't you think if DN had a chance to promote this site, let alone anything pertaining to him, he would?

[checkymcfold 0]

personally, i tend not to post especially often in strat concerning games that, at least in my book, are largely feel-oriented. like, i don't think it's possible to say whether it's right to turn semi-bluff that flush draw in LHE unless you can tell me that the villain in seat 8 has been running badly all day, that the guy in seat 4 is capable of laying down top pair to two bets because he showed a fold three orbits ago, etc.i do post fairly often in the o8 forums, but that's mostly because i think that game is often best played with a fairly straight-forward style, and that modifications ought to be put over a solid grasp of the fundamentals.also, one downside to the fcp strat forums, at least IMHO, is that everyone often seems to post in such a way as to suggest that there's only one correct way to play a hand. there are multiple winning strategies and styles for many games--take the pros that "aren't as good as us" but seem to eek out a living at the 10/20 games in our local casinos. oftentimes there's a lot to learn from the guys who somehow win despite playing nearly every hand, etc., and i think that the general tone in the strat forums here seems to imply that those kinds of people are just running well. of course, i'd say that last thing about most strat forums on the net--it's very difficult to do otherwise in a forum setting--but i do think that fcp (and other forums) could do a bit more in terms of welcoming more unorthodox decisionmaking in a lot of discussions.just my two cents.

[Zach6668 513]

The article was written in Cardplayer's Volume 16, Number 9, about four years ago. FCP didn't boom until.. 2 years ago?What the Canadian Poker Player magazine does is just recycles old cardplayer articles from earlier in Negreanu's poker career. They may be old, but they still have great value.Ha - come on, don't you think if DN had a chance to promote this site, let alone anything pertaining to him, he would?

Ugh... I knew CPP was a jopke, but seriously? 4 years ago? I've been campaigning for the card room to get CP instead... this is ridiculous.

personally, i tend not to post especially often in strat concerning games that, at least in my book, are largely feel-oriented. like, i don't think it's possible to say whether it's right to turn semi-bluff that flush draw in LHE unless you can tell me that the villain in seat 8 has been running badly all day, that the guy in seat 4 is capable of laying down top pair to two bets because he showed a fold three orbits ago, etc.i do post fairly often in the o8 forums, but that's mostly because i think that game is often best played with a fairly straight-forward style, and that modifications ought to be put over a solid grasp of the fundamentals.also, one downside to the fcp strat forums, at least IMHO, is that everyone often seems to post in such a way as to suggest that there's only one correct way to play a hand. there are multiple winning strategies and styles for many games--take the pros that "aren't as good as us" but seem to eek out a living at the 10/20 games in our local casinos. oftentimes there's a lot to learn from the guys who somehow win despite playing nearly every hand, etc., and i think that the general tone in the strat forums here seems to imply that those kinds of people are just running well. of course, i'd say that last thing about most strat forums on the net--it's very difficult to do otherwise in a forum setting--but i do think that fcp (and other forums) could do a bit more in terms of welcoming more unorthodox decisionmaking in a lot of discussions.just my two cents.

You're pretty well bang on here too. I know Erik was talking about this as well. I think if we start to get these reads based posts, etc, and we can go into detail discussing the 4th level of thinking, or whatever, that you were in at the time, etc, etc.I think you should post a hand ever couple days or something and we can see where the discussion goes. There are more than enough good minds here for LHE etc that would love to dig a bit deeper into hands like those.And I know what you mean about those 10/20 casino guys... There's one guy who plays every night up here, and obviously makes a living doing it, but every once in a while, he cracks my AA with 95 sooted, and stuff like that, and you're just like...wtf....

[nutzbuster 7]

personally, i tend not to post especially often in strat concerning games that, at least in my book, are largely feel-oriented. like, i don't think it's possible to say whether it's right to turn semi-bluff that flush draw in LHE unless you can tell me that the villain in seat 8 has been running badly all day, that the guy in seat 4 is capable of laying down top pair to two bets because he showed a fold three orbits ago, etc.i do post fairly often in the o8 forums, but that's mostly because i think that game is often best played with a fairly straight-forward style, and that modifications ought to be put over a solid grasp of the fundamentals.also, one downside to the fcp strat forums, at least IMHO, is that everyone often seems to post in such a way as to suggest that there's only one correct way to play a hand. there are multiple winning strategies and styles for many games--take the pros that "aren't as good as us" but seem to eek out a living at the 10/20 games in our local casinos. oftentimes there's a lot to learn from the guys who somehow win despite playing nearly every hand, etc., and i think that the general tone in the strat forums here seems to imply that those kinds of people are just running well. of course, i'd say that last thing about most strat forums on the net--it's very difficult to do otherwise in a forum setting--but i do think that fcp (and other forums) could do a bit more in terms of welcoming more unorthodox decisionmaking in a lot of discussions.just my two cents.

Ummmmm...are you stoned?

[ChrisRichey 1]

If that's true that the article is four years old, then that's fine. I think this thread has taken a very productive turn though, as we do need to do something to make strat better. There are a TON of good players on here, many of whom just stick to general. I am calling you guys out. BKice, PMJackson, Vatch, Looshle, and many others, we need to see you guys post some hands in strat. What do you say?

[checkymcfold 0]

Ummmmm...are you stoned?

not yet.

[Zach6668 513]

http://cardplayer.com/author/article/all/36/4147There's the article. Obviously it's a moot point now, since it was 4 years ago.The final verdict is that CPP blows.

[checkymcfold 0]

You're pretty well bang on here too. I know Erik was talking about this as well. I think if we start to get these reads based posts, etc, and we can go into detail discussing the 4th level of thinking, or whatever, that you were in at the time, etc, etc.I think you should post a hand ever couple days or something and we can see where the discussion goes. There are more than enough good minds here for LHE etc that would love to dig a bit deeper into hands like those.And I know what you mean about those 10/20 casino guys... There's one guy who plays every night up here, and obviously makes a living doing it, but every once in a while, he cracks my AA with 95 sooted, and stuff like that, and you're just like...wtf....

agreed, and i think that's true of a lot of mid-stakes players here--we don't post enough hands, and we should work on that. i just know that a lot of the time it's because some of the more complex/unorthodox thinking gets criticized in the strat sections (i'm thinking specifically of the last LHE hand i posted where i wrote a lot about laying down broadway on a 10JQ10 board and got reamed for it).this being one of those community things, i think we could all stand to try to welcome new strat posters and new strat-type thinking. personally, i'd like to see some of the higher level LHE guys post really strange blind battle hands and just write a couple paragraphs to start about how the history of blind play has gone at the table, etc.but 95 sooted? i'm always in with that **** live. no joke. i probably raised the flop on you to clean up my 9 outs on a 5610 flop.

[showstopper24 0]

i know he mentioned sklansky, but maybe he isn't allowed to promote sites in his article

[Zach6668 513]

agreed, and i think that's true of a lot of mid-stakes players here--we don't post enough hands, and we should work on that. i just know that a lot of the time it's because some of the more complex/unorthodox thinking gets criticized in the strat sections (i'm thinking specifically of the last LHE hand i posted where i wrote a lot about laying down broadway on a 10JQ10 board and got reamed for it).this being one of those community things, i think we could all stand to try to welcome new strat posters and new strat-type thinking. personally, i'd like to see some of the higher level LHE guys post really strange blind battle hands and just write a couple paragraphs to start about how the history of blind play has gone at the table, etc.but 95 sooted? i'm always in with that **** live. no joke. i probably raised the flop on you to clean up my 9 outs on a 5610 flop.

Yeah. Agreed. I think those hands are the most interesting, and since I don't play MS/HS LHE, I never really get exposed to them, and I would love to see them posted here.This thread has actually spawned a nice little movement towards getting the strat forums a little growth, and a couple of us are working on something, which should end up, hopefully with some more MSHE/HSHE hands, etc, and a push on improving the strat forums.... we'll see where that goes, anyways.

[PMJackson21 0]

If that's true that the article is four years old, then that's fine. I think this thread has taken a very productive turn though, as we do need to do something to make strat better. There are a TON of good players on here, many of whom just stick to general. I am calling you guys out. BKice, PMJackson, Vatch, Looshle, and many others, we need to see you guys post some hands in strat. What do you say?

Generally, I don't post HHs for a variety of reasons:1. Most of the time the decision(s) are so situational, the HH is only a small part of the story. And the hands that are not situational, the answer is obvious.2. Since I have been reading RGP for a long time before FCP or P5s, I've pretty much seen most situations discussed ad nauseum. 3. Normally HHs either come across one of two ways: a well (or horribly) disguised bad beat story, or a brag post (look at how well I played this). I really don't like bringing attention to myself that way.4. I generally only like to get advice from a select group of people. Having someone with a different perspective give you their opinion is great, but getting input from dozens of people does more harm then good. Kinda like getting a bunch of golf tips before each shot doesn't help.5. I really don't like people seeing how I play a hand specifically. 6. I can be pretty damn lazy. :-)That all being said, I'll make more of an effort to save interesting HHs that I play, and post them in strat.

[ChrisRichey 1]

I definitely see what you're saying. A lot of hands are situational, you would just have to try and give a little background info. A lot of the hands posted are bad beats, but even some of them leave room for discussion. Should hero have raised more to push draws off of the hand, stuff like that. It also would help players like me, who are aspiring to become as good as you I definitely look forward to reading some of your HH's.

[Zach6668 513]

Patrick,I understand exactly what you are saying, but I think one thing that would be great, and obviously this is just up to those who want to make the effort to do it, but for someone like you, who has had obvious success, to post their hands, they aren't doing it just for their own benefit. You posting hands would be very beneficial to anyone who reads the strat forums looking to improve their game. Obviously, for that reason would couldn't force anyone to contribute, I just think it would be a great benefit to everyone for obviously winning players to post their hands, even if it doesn't provide them a huge benefit personally. Most of us can't just go to JohnnyBax and ask how we played a certain hand.- ZachEDIT - Your point #5 is very valid, and that's why I'm saying that obviously we wouldn't force anybody to post their hands for that reason.

[No_Neck 0]

I like to post some hands on occasion (cash games) when I am running bad just to make sure I am still playing good. Sometimes I start doubting my game and it is good to have a group of people tell you are playing it correct.

[PMJackson21 0]

Patrick,I understand exactly what you are saying, but I think one thing that would be great, and obviously this is just up to those who want to make the effort to do it, but for someone like you, who has had obvious success, to post their hands, they aren't doing it just for their own benefit. You posting hands would be very beneficial to anyone who reads the strat forums looking to improve their game. Obviously, for that reason would couldn't force anyone to contribute, I just think it would be a great benefit to everyone for obviously winning players to post their hands, even if it doesn't provide them a huge benefit personally. Most of us can't just go to JohnnyBax and ask how we played a certain hand.- ZachEDIT - Your point #5 is very valid, and that's why I'm saying that obviously we wouldn't force anybody to post their hands for that reason.

LOL, at the Bax comment...Is it bad that I feel like a little puppy getting it's head patted when he tells me I did play a hand well? :-)Ya, I understand your points, but I hate taking myself that seriously where I think people are interested in how I play a hand etc. I'm always more then willing to respond to a PM, or reply to a post, but I'm just not a fan of 'look at me' type posts.Like I said though, I'll start saving HHs that I think are interesting, regardless if I'm involved in the hand or not, and post them in the tournament strategy section.