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Floor Ruling At Foxwoods


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Hello all, There's been something bothering me the past few days and i would like to discuss it with the people here at FCP. Hopefully most of the replys will be from the players with vast experience playing live games at the casinos all over. So with that preface, onto the set up. Playing at foxwoods last week, the stakes, not too big, just a little 5-10 holdem with a kill ( for those who dont know what a kill is, its a 5-10 limit game until the pot goes over 100 bucks, from then on the game is 10-20 until the pot goes under 100 bucks, OK? good ) We are in a kill pot. I limp in early postion with AJ of spades, the kill pot option checks, everyone folds to the BB who raises to 20 bucks, i then in turn reraise to 30 bucks to isolate and see where i stand ( the BB is a LAG ) Kill pot guy folds and the BB just flat calls. Flop comes very good for my hand, J 9 2 rainbow, with one spade. The BB bets, i raise, he calls. turn brings an 8, he checks, i bet 20 bucks and as i proceed to put the money in the pot, i see the dealer drop the cards onto the dead cards/muck. Clearly the dealer made a mistake thinking that card was 5th street when in fact it was only 4th, the BB called my bet ( and in doing so i put him on a hand such as AQ or KQ so im pretty sure i know what scare cards to look for ) I then told the dealer that he made a mistake and there was still one card to come. He told me that because of his error, the only thing he could do was shuffle the 2 burn cards ( they are under the chips ) and place one as the river card, i myself have never heard of this ruling before, i always thought the dealer would have to shuffle the other cards ( the mucked and discards and deck ) and then burn and turn the river card. So he quickly shuffled the 2 cards ( that in itself is somewhat funny if you think of someone shuffling 2 cards lol ) and then he placed it as the river card. The river card was a Q and the BB looked at me aplogetically and checked saying, i have that queen. I check behind him and he proceeds to show me AQ. I asked the dealer to call the floor over for a ruling. The floor then tells me the dealer was correct, and the the ruling stands. i was shocked and a little angry also as the LAG raked in the nice kill pot. So, my question stands, do you think that ruling was correct? Do other casinos have the same ruling? I know some of you might ask me, why didnt you ask for the floor before the dealer put the river card out, i did, but he proceded to do what he did anyway, and then the floor agreed with the dealer anyway so, didnt matter. Before anyone says its just sour grapes because i lost the pot, it really isnt, im just really curious if this is a local ruling or if this is pretty standard in most major casinos. let me know guys and thanks in advance for any responses.

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I can't tell you the right answer but I will just say I never thought that would be a correct ruling. I would have assumed any cards that touch the muck are dead, so the dealer would have to go into the deck for a new burn and river card. Bad beat for real, man.

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yeah questionable ruling. The floor/dealers have been pretty sloppy lately. Think it's all the extra volume they're getting with the WPT in town, maybe some of the more non-experienced poker dealers have been picking up the slack.When I was there over the weekend there was quite a few errors made by dealers and some floor rulings I wasn't so sure of. In one hand, I raised preflop with AQ, flopped top pair and bet out again. Everyone folded to the seat directly to my right which was counting out a call and then the dealer just mixed the deck and began shuffling before either of us could say anything. The kid called the floor over and he tried to convince me they would re-deal the flop but I couldn't get my bet on the flop back?? Took a few minutes of explaining that I wasn't going to dark bet on a flop which would be re dealt. Kid ended up showing like J5 for middle pair and folded so all the comotion was for nothing anyway.

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the only thing he could do was shuffle the 2 burn cards ( they are under the chips ) and place one as the river card, That is absolute BS. I have very limited knowledge of live play, but this just is not right. The dealer was aware of where the top two cards are and could have burned and turned or called a misdeal and chopped the pot. I'm curious as to how they came up with that ruling and what the other FCPers have to say.
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I play live all the time and that ruling was total BS, though I do think your reaction was sour grapes. Would you have still called the floorman if the card wasn't a Q? Actually, the only two cards which should not have been shuffled in were the two burns. Standard practice would be to gather what was the deck and reshuffle it, including mucked cards if the deck could not be separated from them, burn and deal a river. Once the dealer did this however, I would not have changed it if I were the floorman. You can't ask for a redeal after you see the river and don't like it. When I have a problem with what a dealer is doing, I stop him and say "please call the floorman." This is always followed by the dealer explaing his decision and I say "I'm not going to argue with you. Just call the floorman and let him decide." That usually gets a floorman there, so he can be the one to make the bad decision.

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I'm still trying to figure out if the OP knows what a kill game is and just did a bad job explaining it or if they have some bizarro definition of a kill game in CT.I don't know what the actual ruling should be but the ruling they came up with seem about the worst option. The burn cards by definition couldn't possibly be dealt. If the deck is on top of the muck then the dealer should easily be able to pick off the top card to burn and 2nd to be the river. If they've been mixed with the muck then I'd think they'd suffle the muck and deal from there. Still not an ideal solution since that would include discards. Mostly though it seems like the dealers there have some bad habits. The dealers I've seen fan the cards (face down) after the river has been dealt and don't mix in the mucked cards until they push the pot.

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i agree complete bs decison but once river was delt hard to fight u shld had stoped play b4 he delt river and if he was ignoring u playing mr right i would had took a 5 dllr chip and hit im in the eye .. twice . otherwise bad beat and u shlda asked the guy for qrter pot see what he said never know some ppl are generouse

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Next time, call the floor over before the river is dealt - you knew what the dealer was going to do (shuffle 2 cards - mind-boggling!).The floor will have a much harder time agreeing with the dealer's action if he's not taken it yet. The mistake would have to be pretty obvious for a floor to take back a river card, and take chips out of Mr. LAG's pile.Bottom line - he made an odd ruling, but I think you're more steamed about losing as a huge favorite rather than the way the river was dealt.

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the ruling on the floor was fine since what is done is done...however, picking from the 2 burns is wrong...in practice though it doesn't matter since the burn cards are still unknowns and weren't any more likely to produce the queen he neededalso, as far as the other guy mentioning the kill pot, here the kill is on if a guy wins 2 pots in a row...he is then required to post double the BB, and all action is doubled...this continues till he loses a pot

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Hello all, There's been something bothering me the past few days and i would like to discuss it with the people here at FCP. Hopefully most of the replys will be from the players with vast experience playing live games at the casinos all over. So with that preface, onto the set up. Playing at foxwoods last week, the stakes, not too big, just a little 5-10 holdem with a kill ( for those who dont know what a kill is, its a 5-10 limit game until the pot goes over 100 bucks, from then on the game is 10-20 until the pot goes under 100 bucks, OK? good ) We are in a kill pot. I limp in early postion with AJ of spades, the kill pot option checks, everyone folds to the BB who raises to 20 bucks, i then in turn reraise to 30 bucks to isolate and see where i stand ( the BB is a LAG ) Kill pot guy folds and the BB just flat calls. Flop comes very good for my hand, J 9 2 rainbow, with one spade. The BB bets, i raise, he calls. turn brings an 8, he checks, i bet 20 bucks and as i proceed to put the money in the pot, i see the dealer drop the cards onto the dead cards/muck. Clearly the dealer made a mistake thinking that card was 5th street when in fact it was only 4th, the BB called my bet ( and in doing so i put him on a hand such as AQ or KQ so im pretty sure i know what scare cards to look for ) I then told the dealer that he made a mistake and there was still one card to come. He told me that because of his error, the only thing he could do was shuffle the 2 burn cards ( they are under the chips ) and place one as the river card, i myself have never heard of this ruling before, i always thought the dealer would have to shuffle the other cards ( the mucked and discards and deck ) and then burn and turn the river card. So he quickly shuffled the 2 cards ( that in itself is somewhat funny if you think of someone shuffling 2 cards lol ) and then he placed it as the river card. The river card was a Q and the BB looked at me aplogetically and checked saying, i have that queen. I check behind him and he proceeds to show me AQ. I asked the dealer to call the floor over for a ruling. The floor then tells me the dealer was correct, and the the ruling stands. i was shocked and a little angry also as the LAG raked in the nice kill pot. So, my question stands, do you think that ruling was correct? Do other casinos have the same ruling? I know some of you might ask me, why didnt you ask for the floor before the dealer put the river card out, i did, but he proceded to do what he did anyway, and then the floor agreed with the dealer anyway so, didnt matter. Before anyone says its just sour grapes because i lost the pot, it really isnt, im just really curious if this is a local ruling or if this is pretty standard in most major casinos. let me know guys and thanks in advance for any responses.
Shuffle the two burn cards? That's new. Those are the only two cards that SHOULD NOT have been in the shuffle. IMHO.Dealer needs to have a separate muck / burn pile and live deck. Can't for the life of me imagine how he arrived at putting burn cards back into play. You got jobbed.
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Horrible ruling. I've never seen a situation quite like what you're describing, but the only way I can imagine it being done properly would be to shuffle the whole deck, then burn and turn. I had a dealer turn over the river card before I'd decided whether or not to call a turn raise once, and the ruling was that the card he turned got put back into the deck, then the deck was reshuffled and a new river card put out. Based on that and logic I'd say something similar should have been done in your situation.

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I maily play live and this was the most rediculous ruling I have ever heard of. You never shuffle the burn cards. Normally if a dealer does what you described, he/she can normally pick the cards back up in the order that they were in. Cause normally they set the deck down on the muck, and spread them alittle bit. Same thing happened to me, but the dealer scooped the cards up back in order...everyone agreed that they were in order and we proceeded from there. But ALWAYS, ALWAYS call a floor before the dealer does anything. If you havea problem, always call a floorman. This way you can get an official decision before anything stupid is done, like what this guy did.I would be extremely pissed, considering that one of his queens was a burn card and he only had two outs to the river....You can do anything now but now you know what to do in the future.

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I play live all the time and that ruling was total BS, though I do think your reaction was sour grapes. Would you have still called the floorman if the card wasn't a Q? Actually, the only two cards which should not have been shuffled in were the two burns. Standard practice would be to gather what was the deck and reshuffle it, including mucked cards if the deck could not be separated from them, burn and deal a river. Once the dealer did this however, I would not have changed it if I were the floorman. You can't ask for a redeal after you see the river and don't like it. When I have a problem with what a dealer is doing, I stop him and say "please call the floorman." This is always followed by the dealer explaing his decision and I say "I'm not going to argue with you. Just call the floorman and let him decide." That usually gets a floorman there, so he can be the one to make the bad decision.
This is an absolutely great answer. :club: Next time be more adamanet and ask for a floorman. Stand up if you must. Your the customer. If you don't like the serivce, you have every right to get a second opinion.
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17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible. The above info is from Robert's rules of poker, which are used in many (if not most) card rooms as the basis for their rules. Clearly the dealer in this instance chose the most unfair way possible as the river ended up being one of the only two cards that prior to his mistake could NOT have been the river card.

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I play live primarily, but i have never seen a dealer make his/her ruling on something like that before. I would have asked for the floor on 4th street. When I have ever seen a deal muck his stub he has always quickly called the sup and they would either wash the deck (no muck cards) or if it wasn't mixed in yet just burn and turn. You got hosed for sure man. btw i didn't read the posts yet so if thisis a repeat sorry

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yeah questionable ruling. The floor/dealers have been pretty sloppy lately. Think it's all the extra volume they're getting with the WPT in town, maybe some of the more non-experienced poker dealers have been picking up the slack.When I was there over the weekend there was quite a few errors made by dealers and some floor rulings I wasn't so sure of. In one hand, I raised preflop with AQ, flopped top pair and bet out again. Everyone folded to the seat directly to my right which was counting out a call and then the dealer just mixed the deck and began shuffling before either of us could say anything. The kid called the floor over and he tried to convince me they would re-deal the flop but I couldn't get my bet on the flop back?? Took a few minutes of explaining that I wasn't going to dark bet on a flop which would be re dealt. Kid ended up showing like J5 for middle pair and folded so all the comotion was for nothing anyway.
This hit the nail on the head. The main floor people, and the most competent dealers are in the ballroom dealing for the World Poker Finals. I had a dealer ship a pot to a kid in a 1-2 nl game because he exposed his cards, when in fact I thought he was mucking because he never said call. It wasn't that big of a pot, and she had already shipped it to him, when I realized he never said call so I didn't make a big deal out of it. They are also pulling people straight out of the pits for the table games to deal right now. We had a gentleman who dealt black jack and craps dealing 4-8 Omaha Hi/Lo which is one of the toughest games to deal.
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I'm a poker dealer at Foxwoods and that is a terrible move by the dealer. To not call the floor and then to 'shuffle' the burn cards is ridiculous. The floor agreeing with him doesn't surprise me. Many of the floors in the main room are from table games and only floor during the tournaments. If the remaining deck and the muck can't be separated, then the whole thing has to be re-shuffled. The only cards not to be included would be the burns.

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I'm still trying to figure out if the OP knows what a kill game is and just did a bad job explaining it or if they have some bizarro definition of a kill game in CT.
this was wierd for me too, the 6/12 kill i play is, if the same player wins 2 pots in a row, the second one being more than like 20 bucks, it then doubles and goes to 12/24. So quick side question, when the pot looks like its over a hundo, they stop, count it, and then say its going to 10/20?
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this was wierd for me too, the 6/12 kill i play is, if the same player wins 2 pots in a row, the second one being more than like 20 bucks, it then doubles and goes to 12/24. So quick side question, when the pot looks like its over a hundo, they stop, count it, and then say its going to 10/20?
According to eboyd it's the next hand. And the dealer always knows how much is in the pot. They don't need to stop and count it. Not sure I'd call that a kill game but if that's what they call it at Foxwoods then so be it. Learn something new every day.
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Im with sloshrnext time, ask for a ruling BEFORE this happens. You look like a sore loser if you wait till you get outdrawn to start complaining. And I know for a fact if the river was anything but a Q, you would have no problem with it

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Foxwoods sounds retarded. A - A kill pot should be when the same player whens twice in a rowB - The entire deck except for the 2 burn cards should be reshuffled and dealtI don't think you can blame the dealers mistake because you lost the hand though....the odds of your opponent hitting his Q is equally likely no matter what the dealer decided to do. But his actual decision was just illogical.

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Hello all, most of the response's were right where i thought they would be. Some of you had some questions, and ill try to answer them.1. the kill pot question. At foxwoods, in their 5-10 hold em game, it becomes a kill pot when the pot reachs 100 bucks or more, once that pot is shipped to the player who won it, he then posts 10 bucks on a kill button. It will then stay 10-20 until the pot goes under 100 bucks, that is how they do it at foxwoods.2. Calling the floor before he "shuffled" burned cards and placed it as a river card. I asked the dealer repeatly to bring the floor over before he did what he did, he continued to tell me that what he is doing is the correct ruling, no matter how many times i told him i didnt think it was the correct ruling. Yes i should of demanded it, but i didnt, so yes i did make a mistake myself. If the river card was a harmless 2 of clubs instead of the Q, and i won the pot, i still would of came on here and posted the same topic, because i still thought the ruling was wrong.3. dealers being good or bad dealing tournaments or cash and dealers from table games dealing and floor people for table games being in the poker room? This is true believe it or not, i was playing the 4-8 HORSE game there and the dealer said he never dealt poker, he was mainly a blackjack/craps dealer. 2 of the floor men were also table games pit people, so... obviously they are shorthanded and so the games will suffer because of it. I could be mistaken but i think the dealers are pretty much shuffled around at will, good or bad.4. the dealer from foxwwoods who commented, thanks... i thought it was the wrong ruling, but... its a lesson learned. As for everyone else, thanks for the response's, i thought it was wrong, and from what most of you said, you agree. Till next time i guess

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If anyone ever asks the dealer to get a floorperson, and they look as if they aren't going to stop, I recommend yelling , "STOP THE ACTION - FLOOR !!!" If the dealer doesn't want to get a floorperson, the player should do it.On principle, I like to play by the rules to maintain the ethics of the game.I've had a lot of dealers make mistakes. The one dealer that I remember costing me money due to his error, has not received a tip from me since it happened.

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