Doyle Brunson Vs. Chip Reese Horse Final Table

[SilentButDeadly3 0]

Doyle Brunson has roughly 750,000 to start the hand and Chip Reese has about 1.2 million.Doyle raises to 70,000 with QQChip Reese calls with KKDavid Singer calls with 66Flop: 7-2-3Doyle bets 240,000.Chip Reese raises to 500,000David Singer folds.Doyle Brunson thinks for awhile then folds and accidentally exposes a Queen.How the hell do you fold Queens in that spot? You've committed about half your stack and you've got an overpair. 99.99% of the world goes bust with that hand. Chip could have anything in that spot and be raising - 44, 55, 66, 88, 99, 1010, JJ, QQ, or just Ace high but Doyle lays it down.When the queen is exposed TJ Cloutier says "You fold Queens?"Andy Bloch - "Queens? No way the other card was an Ace. No way you can fold Queens in that spot."This was just an amazing hand in my opinion and shows why Doyle is one of, if not the best player to ever play the game.

[cwik 0]

If Doyle was really that good he woulda pushed and spiked Q on the turn.

[Zach6668 513]

Well, obviously anyone who thinks that is a good laydown is being very results oriented. If he had half his stack in already, then he's getting AT LEAST 4-1 to get the rest in...Do you really think he has 56, 77, 44, 33, KK, AA > 20% of the time?I mean, it is possible to have someone read that well, but lets get serious.Btw, I didn't see the show.EDIT - I just realized this whole post is screwed up, thougth the flop was 743, but since it was 723, only AA, KK, 77, 22, 33 beats him, assuming he doesn't call preflop with 72,73, but who knows.

[SilentButDeadly3 0]

I'm thinkin thru all the years Chip and Doyle have played together, Doyle has to have some sort of tell on Chip.

[cwik 0]

After 200,000+ hands math goes out the window.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

This was just an amazing hand in my opinion and shows why Doyle is one of, if not the best player to ever play the game.

..and still makes bad folds.

[Zach6668 513]

..and still makes bad folds.

Ok, I'm glad someone agrees with me.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Ok, I'm glad someone agrees with me.

I could see the argument for folding if Chip Reese never makes this move with 88-JJ; that he has to have a set, AA or KK to make this play, but, I find that to be fairly ridiculous. From Doyle's perspective I could see how it looks like, "Well, he knows if he makes that raise that I'm priced in with my overpair so that I have to call and he stacks me with his set(which is really what I would've thought Chip had..)."But, putting over half your stack only to fold with those blind levels is fairly awful.Then again, I'm not a tournament player, so, you'll have that.

[nomad_monad 0]

if the chip counts are accurate in this post, doyle still has more than half his stack left after his flop bet (although not by much).we can say that this is a bad fold anyways, but i give the man enough credit to think that it's possible that on occasion, he's capable of making the perfect play, not the correct play - particularly against someone he's logged a zillion hands with.something also tells me that if Chip had made this raise in LP rather than MP (with Singer left to act), Doyle would've probably shoved.

[krup24 0]

I think Chips min raise gives away his strength. He has to be viewed as a tighter player because later Ivey reraises Bloch with AK Chip repops slightly with AA and Ivey folds. I think this fold was just as impressive if not better.

[_Great_Dane_ 0]

Doyle Brunson has roughly 750,000 to start the hand and Chip Reese has about 1.2 million.Doyle raises to 70,000 with QQChip Reese calls with KKDavid Singer calls with 66Flop: 7-2-3Doyle bets 240,000.Chip Reese raises to 500,000David Singer folds.Doyle Brunson thinks for awhile then folds and accidentally exposes a Queen.How the hell do you fold Queens in that spot? You've committed about half your stack and you've got an overpair. 99.99% of the world goes bust with that hand. Chip could have anything in that spot and be raising - 44, 55, 66, 88, 99, 1010, JJ, QQ, or just Ace high but Doyle lays it down.When the queen is exposed TJ Cloutier says "You fold Queens?"Andy Bloch - "Queens? No way the other card was an Ace. No way you can fold Queens in that spot."This was just an amazing hand in my opinion and shows why Doyle is one of, if not the best player to ever play the game.

Actually, TJ said, "is that what he showed; two queens?" and Andy said, "he's not folding two queens there" followed by TJ saying, "why not? If he thinks they're beat, he'll fold 'em."Another thing to be considered regarding Chip's raise on the flop is that David Singer was last to act after the flop. Chip's raise was not only taking Doyle into consideration, but David as well. The flop was 2 3 7 but, if it had been 2 3 6, David would have flopped top set. Chip may have considered the possibility of David having a small pocket pair when David just called Doyle's raise preflop after Chip called preflop. Also, if anyone thinks that Doyle was priced in to call or raise all in, he may have been getting 4:1 or so on his remaining stack, but I'm sure that he knew that, if Chip had AA or KK or a flopped set, he was a 9:1 underdog and not getting the correct pot odds to call. It's the kind of hand in which, if he's right, he's a genius and, if he folds to a lesser hand, people would say that no one in their right mind would fold QQ to that flop.There's another thread about this started about a week ago at the below URL, in case anyone wants to read those posts too:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...=79206&st=0

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Doyle bets 220,000Chip Reese raises to 440,000

Just making small corrections, that's all.I have no idea how he was able to make this fold btw.

I think Chips min raise gives away his strength. He has to be viewed as a tighter player because later Ivey reraises Bloch with AK Chip repops slightly with AA and Ivey folds. I think this fold was just as impressive if not better.

Really? I didn't think Ivey's AK fold was anywhere near as impressive as this one. Maybe not routine or anything, but Chip was putting in the third raise that hand, so folding AK isn't incredibly unbelievable or anything.

[_Great_Dane_ 0]

I didn't think Ivey's AK fold was anywhere near as impressive as this one. Maybe not routine or anything, but Chip was putting in the third raise that hand, so folding AK isn't incredibly unbelievable or anything.

I agree completely.

[irregularjohn 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyZdGTVAalEfor anyone interested

[ChrisRichey 1]

After 200,000+ hands math goes out the window.

Exactly, this was entirely based on his read. And a ****ing perfect read at that. Greatest laydown ever.

[Canada 0]

Another thing to be considered regarding Chip's raise on the flop is that David Singer was last to act after the flop. Chip's raise was not only taking Doyle into consideration, but David as well.

This is the single most important fact and yet everyone else seems to overlook it.It's still an amazing laydown though

[krup24 0]

The way I look at it Doyle put chip on 5 hands 77, 22, 33, AA, or KKIvey put Chip on AA or KK and he held AKboth were great laydowns that amatuers like myself have trouble folding

[Acid_Knight 2]

The way I look at it Doyle put chip on 5 hands 77, 22, 33, AA, or KKIvey put Chip on AA or KK and he held AKboth were great laydowns that amatuers like myself have trouble folding

Ivey folding AK there isn't a HUGE deal. I think that most good players get a little sick to their stomach when they've put in the 2nd raise with AK and someone comes of the top of that. It's especially toubling when it's not a large reraise.I don't wanna say that Ivey's laydown isn't impressive, but it's just in a totally different category than getting away from QQ in Brunson's spot.

[fckthis 0]

Well, obviously anyone who thinks that is a good laydown is being very results oriented. If he had half his stack in already, then he's getting AT LEAST 4-1 to get the rest in...Do you really think he has 56, 77, 44, 33, KK, AA > 20% of the time?I mean, it is possible to have someone read that well, but lets get serious.Btw, I didn't see the show.

I dont think this line of reasoning is correct when discussing a tournement hand.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I dont think this line of reasoning is correct when discussing a tournement hand.

That line of reasoning is definitely correct. You have to assign a percentage of the time that you're beaten, look at the pot odds and make the right play.If that's not the correct line of reasoning, then what is?

[ChrisRichey 1]

That line of reasoning is definitely correct. You have to assign a percentage of the time that you're beaten, look at the pot odds and make the right play.If that's not the correct line of reasoning, then what is?

The correct line of reasoning is going with your read, and trusting your gut. There is no reason to put all of your money in the pot if your read is that you're drawing to two outs.

[Zach6668 513]

The correct line of reasoning is going with your read, and trusting your gut. There is no reason to put all of your money in the pot if your read is that you're drawing to two outs.

YOU ARE BEING RESULTS ORIENTED.

[ChrisRichey 1]

YOU ARE BEING RESULTS ORIENTED.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, but reads > math. /thread

[nomad_monad 0]

That line of reasoning is definitely correct. You have to assign a percentage of the time that you're beaten, look at the pot odds and make the right play.If that's not the correct line of reasoning, then what is?

I think what fckthis was alluding to was that in a tournament, you also have to figure in chip values relative to your current tournament position (i.e. are you in 1st place or 10th place at the moment) and also the cash equity value of each chip.For example, if Doyle was ahead of his competition by a mile, he should just go ahead and shove regardless of the odds he's getting because the marginal value of each chip he holds is low, but the value of knocking somebody out and guaranteeing a boost in payout is worth it. Put in another way, in this hypothetical if he loses the the hand, his chances of winning the tournament might decline by 5%, but if he wins, he automatically guarantees himself 50K more.Alternatively, if Doyle has an above average stack and there are 5 other people at the table nursing shortstacks and the prize award jumps by a factor of 5 or 6 if Doyle finishes ahead of those 5 shortstacks, there is a huge premium on each chip he preserves. In a situation like this, he might have only a 10% of winning the tournament, but a 70% of moving up 5 or 6 spots in the payout, worth an extra 300K, if he just folds.The right play based on % and odds is the right play assuming that the value of each chip remains constant, but the artificial constraints of the tournament can sometimes warp things.

[Zach6668 513]

^^^ Yeah, this should have been posted in the tourney forum.