Something I've Always Wondered...

[bear187 0]

First let me start by saying that I don't believe in God. It's not that I don't want to, I infact think life would be much easier if I could embrace God and live everyday knowing that it was going to eventually be alright. It's just that with all of the corruption in this world and actions of religious people coupled with the fact that there's no "concrete" proof of God I find myself unable to blindly believe in something. If God designed me, then did he not design me knowing that with the brain I have that I can't believe in something I cannot see? I still make strives to be a 'good' person and I would never intentionally do something to hurt someone else without a just cause. My question is that if I die a nonbeliever, even though I led a good life, will God still send me to Hell? Or will he understand the difficulty in believing him?Another question, does the Bible not state that everyone should have an equal oppurtunity to go to Heaven? What about all of the people who got to see Jesus perform all those miracles? I'm sure if I was able to witness that I would have no problem believing in God. It just doesn't seem fair, which to me a fatal flaw that makes it even harder to believe in religion.Any thoughts?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

First let me start by saying that I don't believe in God. It's not that I don't want to, I infact think life would be much easier if I could embrace God and live everyday knowing that it was going to eventually be alright. It's just that with all of the corruption in this world and actions of religious people coupled with the fact that there's no "concrete" proof of God I find myself unable to blindly believe in something. If God designed me, then did he not design me knowing that with the brain I have that I can't believe in something I cannot see? I still make strives to be a 'good' person and I would never intentionally do something to hurt someone else without a just cause. My question is that if I die a nonbeliever, even though I led a good life, will God still send me to Hell? Or will he understand the difficulty in believing him?Another question, does the Bible not state that everyone should have an equal oppurtunity to go to Heaven? What about all of the people who got to see Jesus perform all those miracles? I'm sure if I was able to witness that I would have no problem believing in God. It just doesn't seem fair, which to me a fatal flaw that makes it even harder to believe in religion.Any thoughts?

Whether you believe or don't believe in God is irrelevent because believers have the exact questions you expressed in your post. There is corruption everywhere, including alot of churches. I would ask you to read the teachings in the gospel and apply those teachings to the world. Then apply (mentally) what Pop culture teaches you. Now ask yourself where the hope lies for a better future. As for miricles performed back in the day of Jesus, alot of people saw and still didn't believe. You say you can't believe in things you can't see but you do everyday. Can you see love? Can you see the wind? No, but you see the effect they have on people and things around them. The same with God. As far as sending you to Hell, well most Christian churches believe in Hell, though from my studies the greatest torment for those in Hell will be the knowledge that there is a heaven and that they will never be there. This is something I am studying now, it is one of the biggest questions I have about Christianity. I would be happy to discuss any of this with you. Like I said, I do believe but still struggle with alot of the same questions.

[bear187 0]

Whether you believe or don't believe in God is irrelevent because believers have the exact questions you expressed in your post. There is corruption everywhere, including alot of churches. I would ask you to read the teachings in the gospel and apply those teachings to the world. Then apply (mentally) what Pop culture teaches you. Now ask yourself where the hope lies for a better future. As for miricles performed back in the day of Jesus, alot of people saw and still didn't believe. You say you can't believe in things you can't see but you do everyday. Can you see love? Can you see the wind? No, but you see the effect they have on people and things around them. The same with God. As far as sending you to Hell, well most Christian churches believe in Hell, though from my studies the greatest torment for those in Hell will be the knowledge that there is a heaven and that they will never be there. This is something I am studying now, it is one of the biggest questions I have about Christianity. I would be happy to discuss any of this with you. Like I said, I do believe but still struggle with alot of the same questions.

Well those who chose not to believe after seeing him rise from the dead are obviously not very smart. It's irrelevant whether or not people still chose to disbelieve, but rather the fact that they got an oppurtunity that I have not or will never get.Your examples for things I cannot see but believe in are sort of silly. I believe in love because I feel it, and I know that others feel it. It's an emotion, something that has been documented throughout history. Love is also not asking me to change my entire lifestyle to accomodate it or face damnation. I believe in the wind also because I can FEEL it. There is also a scientific research to back why wind happens. I understand that if there is a Hell it's likely not fire, brimstone, and eternal torture, but rather a permanent separation from God. This is as undesirable as the torture to me, if there is a God, I *want* to believe in him. If I knew that God was real I'd be the most devout person ever. I suppose that's part of his challenge, however, I am incapable of devoting this sort of thing blindly, especially with a mound of evidence suggesting the converse.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Well those who chose not to believe after seeing him rise from the dead are obviously not very smart. It's irrelevant whether or not people still chose to disbelieve, but rather the fact that they got an oppurtunity that I have not or will never get.Your examples for things I cannot see but believe in are sort of silly. I believe in love because I feel it, and I know that others feel it. It's an emotion, something that has been documented throughout history. Love is also not asking me to change my entire lifestyle to accomodate it or face damnation. I believe in the wind also because I can FEEL it. There is also a scientific research to back why wind happens. I understand that if there is a Hell it's likely not fire, brimstone, and eternal torture, but rather a permanent separation from God. This is as undesirable as the torture to me, if there is a God, I *want* to believe in him. If I knew that God was real I'd be the most devout person ever. I suppose that's part of his challenge, however, I am incapable of devoting this sort of thing blindly, especially with a mound of evidence suggesting the converse.

I don't understand why you wouldn't try to change your lifestyle regardless of whether you believe in God or not. Do you not see wisdom in living that way. Why don't you believe Love is just an instinct to get us to care for our young and thus keep up the survival of the species. Where is your proof, that love is anything more than that. Can you proove to me that you love someone? How would you prove that? I look at the universe and I am awed. As I have grown, I have had a yearning to learn more about it and how it works. I have found that the best guide for me on how to interact with the universe is found in the Bible, the teachings of Jesus to be more specific. You seem to have bought into the Pop culture, which is your choice. Why did you make that choice? What have you done to try and understand Christianity?

[crowTrobot 2]

Can you see love?

theoretically yes, in chemical form.

Can you see the wind?

that's original . the wind is energy waves created by changing atmospheric pressure that move through whatever medium they encounter. they are not visible in the atmosphere because the gas does not radiate photons with wavelengths in our visible spectrum, but the energy waves are quite visible when you see anything else blowing - trees, grass, smoke whatever.any other analogy you can possibly come up with relating god to human experience will be of a similar physically detectable nature, so your point is moot.

I look at the universe and I am awed. As I have grown, I have had a yearning to learn more about it and how it works. I have found that the best guide for me on how to interact with the universe is found in the Bible

that is very sad.

[bear187 0]

I don't understand why you wouldn't try to change your lifestyle regardless of whether you believe in God or not. Do you not see wisdom in living that way. Why don't you believe Love is just an instinct to get us to care for our young and thus keep up the survival of the species. Where is your proof, that love is anything more than that. Can you proove to me that you love someone? How would you prove that? I look at the universe and I am awed. As I have grown, I have had a yearning to learn more about it and how it works. I have found that the best guide for me on how to interact with the universe is found in the Bible, the teachings of Jesus to be more specific. You seem to have bought into the Pop culture, which is your choice. Why did you make that choice? What have you done to try and understand Christianity?

Because a change for the 'better' is subjective. What's the point of say, stopping smoking, besides the fact it's lowering my life expectancy? I don't want to live forever, and quality of life after 50 or so degrades. With no promise of an afterlife with my currently belief system, smoking now and enjoying it is +ev.Well, there are many types of love. I suppose the love you have for your offspring could be instinctual, but what about the kind of love that develops after spending time with a woman? Is this an instinct as well, because last time I checked the instinct is supposed to be to screw as many women as possible and proliferate our race. Marriage, which supports monogamy, is the exact opposite of that instinct.I too am awed by our universe. That's why rather than atheism I lean towards divine creationism, simply because of its complexity and the way everything just sort of 'syncs'. I'm curious though as how you think the Bible is the best way to experience the universe? The Bible actually forbids many of the pleasures you could be experiencing. Perhaps the inner joy it gives you (which can presumably be false since theres no way of knowing) overrides the joy you could extract from activities outside of it's boundaries? In this case then the choice would be purely personal preference.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

theoretically yes, in chemical form.that's original . the wind is energy waves created by changing atmospheric pressure that move through whatever medium they encounter. they are not visible in the atmosphere because the gas does not radiate photons with wavelengths in our visible spectrum, but the energy waves are quite visible when you see anything else blowing - trees, grass, smoke whatever.any other analogy you can possibly come up with relating god to human experience will be of a similar physically detectable nature, so your point is moot.that is very sad.

How could that possbly make you sad?

[crowTrobot 2]

How could that possbly make you sad?

that you find modern science less enlightening about the universe than a 2000-year-old text of fables is very sad.

[WrongWay 0]

I look at the universe and I am awed. As I have grown, I have had a yearning to learn more about it and how it works. I have found that the best guide for me on how to interact with the universe is found in the Bible,

I notice the nice little turn here.... You're awed by the universe. You want to learn about the universe.... yet you do not look in the Bible to learn of the universe.What, the universe is not a flat disk, with neaven being a sky dome, poured out, made firm, as a tent for us to dwell in. The sun/moon/stars are not lights attached to the inside of the sky dome? There is not water above the sky which falls to earth as rain when the windows of heaven, the sky dome, are opened.Heaven is not a physical place a couple miles above our heads, where Jesus, physical body and all sits at the right hand of himself while choirs of angels and many headed beasts spend all eternity chanting how great God is?How about you learn a little something about the universe... Then realize that even the NT is nothing but ancient mythology which provides no insight into how to interact with the universe.

[Loismustdie 0]

I notice the nice little turn here.... You're awed by the universe. You want to learn about the universe.... yet you do not look in the Bible to learn of the universe.What, the universe is not a flat disk, with neaven being a sky dome, poured out, made firm, as a tent for us to dwell in. The sun/moon/stars are not lights attached to the inside of the sky dome? There is not water above the sky which falls to earth as rain when the windows of heaven, the sky dome, are opened.Heaven is not a physical place a couple miles above our heads, where Jesus, physical body and all sits at the right hand of himself while choirs of angels and many headed beasts spend all eternity chanting how great God is?How about you learn a little something about the universe... Then realize that even the NT is nothing but ancient mythology which provides no insight into how to interact with the universe.

Dude, you really have no clue what those scriptures are saying. Seriously. I'm gonna need to bust out with the scientific facts again, I don't care what Canada says.

[Sluggo 0]

Dude, you really have no clue what those scriptures are saying. Seriously. I'm gonna need to bust out with the scientific facts again, I don't care what Canada says.

Scientific facts like dinosaurs never existed??

[Canada 0]

Dude, you really have no clue what those scriptures are saying. Seriously. I'm gonna need to bust out with the scientific facts again, I don't care what Canada says.

Please do. I think WrongWay would love to see your 'logic'.Better strap yourself in WW its a hairy ride, and there's an extreme lack of gravity along the way...

[bear187 0]

Gravity doesn't exist. It's not in the Bible

[Loismustdie 0]

Please do. I think WrongWay would love to see your 'logic'.Better strap yourself in WW its a hairy ride, and there's an extreme lack of gravity along the way...

I need time boys, and some thick skin for this one. Canada loves to bring it.

[BWToth 0]

I need time boys, and some thick skin for this one. Canada loves to bring it.

I just saw this...and I think 45 days is enough time....let's hear it.

[DerekTah 0]

My question is that if I die a nonbeliever, even though I led a good life, will God still send me to Hell? Or will he understand the difficulty in believing him?

God may do both.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

and quality of life after 50 or so degrades.

Pop culture, or Pop fiction would actually be more accurate.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Is this an instinct as well, because last time I checked the instinct is supposed to be to screw as many women as possible and proliferate our race. Marriage, which supports monogamy, is the exact opposite of that instinct.

More Pop Culture. You also have an instinct to eat but it is not healthy to eat anything and everything. (Canada, please withhold any Loismustdiet jokes you may be tempted to add to this thread.)Marriage is the more responsible option here, is that not obvious.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I too am awed by our universe. That's why rather than atheism I lean towards divine creationism, simply because of its complexity and the way everything just sort of 'syncs'. I'm curious though as how you think the Bible is the best way to experience the universe? The Bible actually forbids many of the pleasures you could be experiencing. Perhaps the inner joy it gives you (which can presumably be false since theres no way of knowing) overrides the joy you could extract from activities outside of it's boundaries? In this case then the choice would be purely personal preference.

God is the one who created the pleasures you refer to here. Just because you are forbidden to indulge in them at the expense of humanity, and you own health, doesn't mean they are bad in themselves. Again I refer you to my initial question. Ask yourself how does the Bible deal with these issues vs. pop culture? This thread was just revived, I had forgotten about it. Sorry.

[Loismustdie 0]

I just saw this...and I think 45 days is enough time....let's hear it.

It really would only be for the joy of screwing with Canada, and I tired of that long ago. It's no fun having a friendly argument when one side insists on just being an a hole, for no other reason then the fact that he's an ahole.

[Canada 0]

I only threaten to make these posts now. I don't actually make them because I'm sick of having every one of my 'scientific facts' torn apart and shown for the false propoganda they are, and I don't have the intellectual prowess to defend them. That and having a forum full of people laugh at me makes me cry

FYPBWToth, if you want to see some of Loismustdiet's dealings with science have a look here:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...t&p=1116460I think the voodoo science probably starts about halfway through, but the whole thread is scary and of course probably contains a few food-based themesLMD, if you want to present a few of these 'scientific facts' to the newer members of the forum feel free to start a new thread. I promise to not put a single post in it or in any other thread referring to it. My word, unlike yours, is worth something. Go on do it. Share the joy!

[Loismustdie 0]

FYPBWToth, if you want to see some of Loismustdiet's dealings with science have a look here:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...t&p=1116460I think the voodoo science probably starts about halfway through, but the whole thread is scary and of course probably contains a few food-based themesLMD, if you want to present a few of these 'scientific facts' to the newer members of the forum feel free to start a new thread. I promise to not put a single post in it or in any other thread referring to it. My word, unlike yours, is worth something. Go on do it. Share the joy!

Still an ahole. Not suprising. Enjoy the view on that high horse, the fall is faaarrrr.

[Canada 0]

Still an ahole. Not suprising. Enjoy the view on that high horse, the fall is faaarrrr.

Why is that I'm not surprised you didn't take up the offer? How about I sweeten the pot then? You obviously don't like me posting here. So let's say I offer to stop posting here in the religion forum.You start the thread and I go. Simple enough.The only conditions I put on it are that

1. You title the post "10 unknown scientific facts in the Bible"
2. You list 10 of your unknown scientific facts in the first post
3. You never mention my offer as the reason for you starting the thread
4. You must believe your facts to be totally true and defend them until the end (or openly admit you were wrong when you come to that realisation)

Do that and I'm gone. How can you turn that down?

[Loismustdie 0]

Why is that I'm not surprised you didn't take up the offer? How about I sweeten the pot then? You obviously don't like me posting here. So let's say I offer to stop posting here in the religion forum.You start the thread and I go. Simple enough.The only conditions I put on it are that

1. You title the post "10 unknown scientific facts in the Bible"
2. You list 10 of your unknown scientific facts in the first post
3. You never mention my offer as the reason for you starting the thread
4. You must believe your facts to be totally true and defend them until the end (or openly admit you were wrong when you come to that realisation)

Do that and I'm gone. How can you turn that down?

Honestly, dude, do whatever you want. The days where I care about what you think or say are over. Througout life I have found that from time to time I meet those, who, after knowing them for a time reveal themsleves to be not worth the time or the energy it takes to acknowledge they exist. If you hadn't guessed, you fall in that category. I am sure I am not the first to pin that on you, and I guarantee I won't be the last.

[BWToth 0]

Honestly, dude, do whatever you want. The days where I care about what you think or say are over. Througout life I have found that from time to time I meet those, who, after knowing them for a time reveal themsleves to be not worth the time or the energy it takes to acknowledge they exist. If you hadn't guessed, you fall in that category. I am sure I am not the first to pin that on you, and I guarantee I won't be the last.

The problem that is see is two-fold... Canada has been an ******* towards you on a personal level, mainly, i think, because he has let his own frustrations regarding the dicussion show. While I do fault him for that, the rest of what he is saying makes perfect sense, and proves you're points wrong Lois. That brings us to the second problem, you are unwilling to look past his personal attacks and response to the more meaningful aspect of what he is trying to say, and this is what I fault you for.I get the impression that even if Canada was treating you cordially and made the same argument you would still not respond. This is because there is no way for you to refute his claims because what you have said previously is invalid.