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30/60 Hand #2, River Bet/fold Or Check/call Or Bet/call


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30/60 ringHero is UTG+1 with Jdiamond.gif Jclub.gif.CO is a thinking, albeit sometimes stubborn, TAG.Button is loose and stubborn and *slightly* aggro but often passive...., Hero raises, ..., CO three-bets, Button cold-calls, ..., Hero calls.(7.5 sb, 3 plrs) Qdiamond.gif 9diamond.gif 3club.gifHero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls.(6.5 bb, 3 plrs) 3heart.gifHero bets, CO folds, Button calls.(8.5 BB, 2 plrs) 6diamond.gifHero ...

  1. bet/folds
  2. bet/calls
  3. check/calls

My normal line is to bet/fold, but there are some abnormal factors to consider:

  • anti-tilt reasons... bet/calling or check/calling and being good is way good for confidence and emotional support while taking a shot (I am taking shots at 30/60).
  • metagame against this specific player, who I have been playing a lot since he is a big fish. I normally don't worry too much about metagame, but I think it matters a lot if you are repeatedly getting involved in pots with the same player(s). And esp since he is a loose/stubborn fish, I don't want him making plays at me on the river.
  • he might not check behind with a worse hand all that often, but he will raise with a worse hand even less often.

Sorry if this is trivial, I know it kind of is, but for some reason it's eating me up and I am not really satisfied with any of the three lines. I don't want to miss value, but I don't really want to not see a showdown (fishy thinking, I know :club:), but I don't want to have only better hands bet, etc.I think deep down I know that bet/fold really is the way to go, but please offer any advice... thanks in advance.AseemP.S. I don't know why I'm posting this. Honestly, flush got there + overcard + paired 3... so many reasons why bet/fold is by far the best play. But consider this a check-up hand I suppose...

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I check/call. If we're beat, we're beat, but I sure as $hit want to see what he cold calls 3 bets for PF when on the button.Plus I think if you're willing to spend one more bet here, I'd rather do it while getting to see his cards. A weak check here after you've been pumping it all along could induce a lot of whiffed hands to bet in to you. (AJ, A10, A9 maaaaybe?)

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I never really liked bet/fold, except in the worst "I can't win unless he folds" situations. But that's just me. Maybe you'll convince me otherwise. In this case, though, it just seems like a wasted bet if we're behind. And if there's ANY chance whatsoever that he'd bet a worse hand, like TT, c/c seems better.Also, why no cap PF? Is it because of your read on CO as solid?

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30/60 ringHero is UTG+1 with Jdiamond.gif Jclub.gif.CO is a thinking, albeit sometimes stubborn, TAG.Button is loose and stubborn and *slightly* aggro but often passive...., Hero raises, ..., CO three-bets, Button cold-calls, ..., Hero calls.(7.5 sb, 3 plrs) Qdiamond.gif 9diamond.gif 3club.gifHero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls.(6.5 bb, 3 plrs) 3heart.gifHero bets, CO folds, Button calls.(8.5 BB, 2 plrs) 6diamond.gifHero ...
  1. bet/folds
  2. bet/calls
  3. check/calls

My normal line is to bet/fold, but there are some abnormal factors to consider:

  • anti-tilt reasons... bet/calling or check/calling and being good is way good for confidence and emotional support while taking a shot (I am taking shots at 30/60).
  • metagame against this specific player, who I have been playing a lot since he is a big fish. I normally don't worry too much about metagame, but I think it matters a lot if you are repeatedly getting involved in pots with the same player(s). And esp since he is a loose/stubborn fish, I don't want him making plays at me on the river.
  • he might not check behind with a worse hand all that often, but he will raise with a worse hand even less often.

Sorry if this is trivial, I know it kind of is, but for some reason it's eating me up and I am not really satisfied with any of the three lines. I don't want to miss value, but I don't really want to not see a showdown (fishy thinking, I know :club:), but I don't want to have only better hands bet, etc.I think deep down I know that bet/fold really is the way to go, but please offer any advice... thanks in advance.AseemP.S. I don't know why I'm posting this. Honestly, flush got there + overcard + paired 3... so many reasons why bet/fold is by far the best play. But consider this a check-up hand I suppose...

I am pretty new to limit, so bear with me. But I've seen you say things like this in several threads and I'm trying to learn. Why would you bet/fold instead of check/call. Check/call will get you SO much more information for the exact same cost. My only thought as to why you would do this was that if you bet and he calls with a worse hand that you didn't miss out on an extra bet. But if he was calling with a small two pair or even a queen, that 3rd diamond will be a scare card for him as well. The thing is, is he will probably still call with any one of those hands, so it seems to me that you're betting for his value with a bet/fold, even if he just calls. You don't really expect him to call on that board with a pair of 4's or a 9, do you? Because if he would, I need to quit playing 2/4 and move up to 30/60. I'm just trying to understand your thinking, as pretty much everyone in this forum is better at limit than I am.
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i don't like a bet/fold here, because at 30/60 i give people enough credit to bluff occasionally. if he's been watching you at all, he knows you're capable of a bet/fold, and this is a great bluffing spot.at 2/4 at my local casino, i bet/fold.i don't bet/call since i'm not even beating a queen.i check/call into most opponents and unknowns, and may even check/fold against a passive.without strongish reads, i think this is definitely a check/call.

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Bet/fold is silly.I commented in your Question #3 that it's silly to let yourself get bet out of a pot when you can see the showdown for the same price.I agree that you're likely not winning, but what can the villain have? If he's got the flush, what is it? A :club: K :D ? Wouldn't he cap it preflop in position? Is he coldcalling 3 bets with A :D J :D or K :) J :) ? This is the kind of information that I'd pay for.I think he'd raise the flop with AQ. I think there's a higher than average chance that he has TT or some other pair, hoping that you had AK. It's more common than you think, even at a level as high as 30/60.Check call here. If he's bluffing, you get another bet out of him. If you're beat, you get to see what you're beaten by for that same single BB.

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Bet/fold is silly.I commented in your Question #3 that it's silly to let yourself get bet out of a pot when you can see the showdown for the same price.I agree that you're likely not winning, but what can the villain have? If he's got the flush, what is it? A :club: K :D ? Wouldn't he cap it preflop in position? Is he coldcalling 3 bets with A :D J :D or K :) J :) ? This is the kind of information that I'd pay for.I think he'd raise the flop with AQ. I think there's a higher than average chance that he has TT or some other pair, hoping that you had AK. It's more common than you think, even at a level as high as 30/60.Check call here. If he's bluffing, you get another bet out of him. If you're beat, you get to see what you're beaten by for that same single BB.
Hold on a minute.In hand #3, there are very few hands that are ahead of KK and fold to the raise and we get little-to-no value from hands that are behind.In this hand, we get value from a few hands that are behind us and we have considerable fold equity from a queen.This is the time to B/F.*Editbtw, I can't see a check-bluff-call here on the river...
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seeing that you've played with this player before, has he shown a propensity to bluff/raise scare cards on the river? if he has i think it is an easy bet/call. you dont really have to worry about a Q raising the river for value, if he was going to raise the Q he would have raised the turn. i'm pretty sure he's going to be calling down here w/ hands you beat a lot more than hands that are going to raise you on the river. he will call you down w/ TT here, and other hands. i think bet/fold is the correct line to take here for value. and bet/call only if you've seen him bluffraise rivers before.

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i check/call into most opponents and unknowns, and may even check/fold
I typically c/c when actually playing, but I really think that something like this has to be a c/f.- Opponent is passive.- We don't beat anything, save for JT or 9x, and with a passive opponent, he isn't betting this board with those hands.- Bet/fold sucks because there's little value to be gained from this. What calls that we beat?
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I typically c/c when actually playing, but I really think that something like this has to be a c/f.- Opponent is passive.- We don't beat anything, save for JT or 9x, and with a passive opponent, he isn't betting this board with those hands.- Bet/fold sucks because there's little value to be gained from this. What calls that we beat?
bad players will call you down with 9x or a small pocket pair and bet when you check to them. some will even do this with ace high. that the diamonds got there is unsettling, but i really dont think that you should be folding rivers like this. i actually think against a good player check/folding is reasonable here.
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Ok, we're simply disagreeing on the definition of "bad".OP said passive, which means they won't bet bluff the river when checked to. Of course, bad players will bet here, but aggressive bad players, not passive.Having said that, we only need to be right less than 10% of the time to c/c here.

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I typically c/c when actually playing, but I really think that something like this has to be a c/f.- Opponent is passive.- We don't beat anything, save for JT or 9x, and with a passive opponent, he isn't betting this board with those hands.- Bet/fold sucks because there's little value to be gained from this. What calls that we beat?
This is what I was asking? Aseem?
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Ok, we're simply disagreeing on the definition of "bad".OP said passive, which means they won't bet bluff the river when checked to. Of course, bad players will bet here, but aggressive bad players, not passive.Having said that, we only need to be right less than 10% of the time to c/c here.
yea but if they have a 9 or a pair or even ace high they might not think they are bluffing, they are thinking hey he checked i have the best hand im gonna bet. all that aside, only having to be good 1 in 10 times makes check/folding silly.
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1. please ignore stakes, this game is no different than 3/6.2. i was always reluctant to bet/fold but i've started using it a lot more and have seen my winrate go up and stay up consistently. it really is a good move. i have on time to argue it in detail but essentially, the reasons are:- you bet because your opponents are loose. they will certainly call with tons of **** you beat, including as bad as ace high, a pocket pair that never hit a set, a 9x, etc.- you bet because like SSHE says, you should bet marginal hands oop against loose/passive opponents, because if you check, they will usually only bet when you're beat and they will check their worst hands that they would have called a bet with.- getting to showdown is way overrated. my hand is way marginal, i don't really care about getting to showdown if i know i'm beat. on the other hand, if it's the best hand, i don't want to get to showdown without getting the value on the river of him calling a bet.3. the tricky part of this hand is NOT that i may get raised off the best hand (i believe this almost never happens) but that he potentially MAY bet worse hands, so i might prefer to c/c for metagame/anti-tilt reasons as mentioned. BUT, since him RAISING worse hands still happens way less than him BETTING worse hands, i should still bet/fold because it has the highest EV.4. try to think in terms of EV and not in terms of logic, because it's hard to realize that logic might be wrong. for example, this is why fish don't raise AK preflop, because "logic" dictates that it's a "drawing hand". but if you think in EV, raising AK is clearly correct. same here. bet/folding is pretty far ahead in EV of check/calling, because you get called by many worse hands that would have checked through but you lose the same one bet to better hands that raise, and occasionally you lose the same one bet to better hands as well (like a queen).sorry no time, will maybe reply later. hope this helps.aseemp.s. i know it seems ridiculous, i always thought bet/fold on the river was ridiculous since it seemed to go against what sshe says about folding to a river bet in a big pot, but.... it's not. it's just kind of the "next step" in pushing EV as far as you can.

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and the following step is bluff-raising the river vs. aseem. :club: what's up, buddy?
haha, not much jim, you? how're you doing over there in california?i have to run but we'll chat later.aseem
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fwiw, i do like bet/folding a lot, and think its an underrated technique. the key though is that we can almost never be getting bluffed. if we are even occasionally getting bluffed, we are in danger of losing a lot of EV by folding in big pots.with the flush hitting the river, i just think a bluff, even a poorly-considered one like 9x, is too likely for us to fold our hand.

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Bet/call seems like the best line to me.If he has Qx its the same if you bet or check as hes just calling a bet if you bet and hes betting if checked to so the times that he has that really dont matter.This leaves 3-4 other options.If hes loose enough you have to figure he can have a bunch of straight draws. KJ K10, K10 etc. With these hands its based on your read of whether or not he will try to bluff with them when checked to.But the main reason why i'm betting is because a loose passive is definitely calling a river bet with mid pps or 9x while he is generally checking behind with them if you check it. As far as flush hands the only real options are AKd A10d and K10d.So summing up my random thoughts. I think he gets to the river with way to many weak hands that he might try to bluff raise for you to bet/fold this river especially since you will be getting 11.5:1. Then I dont like check/call because you are missing out on a ton of value in a spot like this. I mean I could see a loose passive calling the river here with AK.So yea seems like a bet/call to meRandom edit: seems like this comes down to one thing to me since I think c/c and b/c are the only options.How often does he have a flush vs how often he has a weaker hand and calls with it instead of checking behind with it.basically the question is does he have a weaker hand that he will call a bet with more often then he has a flush which you will lose 1 additional bet against by betting rather then c/c.I think he'd have a weaker hand that he'd call a bet with way more often then a flush. So at the very least that makes c/c a worse option then b/c

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Checkraising this flop is not necessary at all. Why would you? Are you trying to get 77 through 1010 to fold, or get value out of AK? If you thought his range was wide enough that it was clearly for value, you might as well have capped preflop.You're betting the river no ****ing matter what after he just calls your flop checkraise and turn bet.Maybe call a raise, maybe fold to a raise. If you think that there's a good enough chance that he'll bluff raise to warrant a call after having bet, great. Because people who bluff raise rivers will either 3bet the flop or raise the turn with a flush draw almost EVERY time. I expect to be losing to 66 and only 66 against a good player on that river, with few exceptions.If he's given you no reason to believe that he'll bluff raise the river, then bet/folding is extremely easy. You're ahead of his range, he'll probably only bet the river with better hands, and check behind with worse hands that he would've called with. But he bets often enough with worse hands to warrant a call given the size of the pot.

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You have to bet this river. This looks a lot like a stubborn AK or mid-pocket pair. Check/calling is the play that feels better emotionally, but it's -EV in the long run. Without a lot of information on villian, I'd probably call a raise too. The weird, sometimes passive, sometimes aggro players are the exact type that will try a crazy bluff raise on the river with something like a JT that missed, at least one time in ten.

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