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Sure. Religion and peace often have nothing to do with each other, and violence is hardly exclusively committed by Muslims.
I never said it was, so your responce made zero sense.
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It is interesting to note that the genocide in Darfur is happening for religious differences. Christians are being killed by a Muslim "leader", only because they are Christian, not Muslim. It is interesting because noone seems to be mentioning that part of the story.

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It is interesting to note that the genocide in Darfur is happening for religious differences. Christians are being killed by a Muslim "leader", only because they are Christian, not Muslim.
most genocides are because of religion-Armenian (because of Christianity)Holocaust (because of Judiasm)Cambodia-(Khmer vs. khmer rouge)and so on.
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It is interesting to note that the genocide in Darfur is happening for religious differences. Christians are being killed by a Muslim "leader", only because they are Christian, not Muslim. It is interesting because noone seems to be mentioning that part of the story.
Where did you get that? This is Arabs killing Africans.
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We did bomb Serbia for about a week to stop the genocide in Kosovo. That worked pretty well.
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/...ia_genocide.htm"In April 1992, the U.S. and European Community chose to recognize the independence of Bosnia, a mostly Muslim country where the Serb minority made up 32 percent of the population. Milosevic responded to Bosnia's declaration of independence by attacking Sarajevo, its capital city,""Throughout 1993, confident that the U.N., United States and the European Community would not take militarily action, Serbs in Bosnia freely committed genocide against Muslims.""The U.S. then launched diplomatic efforts aimed at unifying Bosnian Muslims and the Croats [Catholics] against the Serbs [Orthodix Chriatians]. However, this new Muslim-Croat alliance failed to stop the Serbs from attacking Muslim towns in Bosnia, which had been declared Safe Havens by the U.N. A total of six Muslim towns had been established as Safe Havens in May 1993 under the supervision of U.N. peacekeepers.Bosnian Serbs not only attacked the Safe Havens but also attacked the U.N. peacekeepers as well. NATO forces responded by launching limited air strikes against Serb ground positions. The Serbs retaliated by taking hundreds of U.N. peacekeepers as hostages and turning them into human shields, chained to military targets such as ammo supply dumps.At this point, some of the worst genocidal activities of the four-year-old conflict occurred. In Srebrenica, a Safe Haven, U.N. peacekeepers stood by helplessly as the Serbs under the command of General Ratko Mladic systematically selected and then slaughtered nearly 8,000 men and boys between the ages of twelve and sixty - the worst mass murder in Europe since World War II. In addition, the Serbs continued to engage in mass rapes of Muslim females.On August 30, 1995, effective military intervention finally began as the U.S. led a massive NATO bombing campaign in response to the killings at Srebrenica, targeting Serbian artillery positions throughout Bosnia. The bombardment continued into October. Serb forces also lost ground to Bosnian Muslims who had received arms shipments from the Islamic world. As a result, half of Bosnia was eventually retaken by Muslim-Croat troops.....By now, over 200,000 Muslim civilians had been systematically murdered. More than 20,000 were missing and feared dead, while 2,000,000 had become refugees. It was, according to U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, "the greatest failure of the West since the 1930s."The Serbians quit because they grew tired of the never ending war (their own Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq) and because the other side got the weapons they needed to fight back.Again, send in troops to stand around and watch?Arm the victims so that it turns into a full scale civil war?Invade with half-a-million troops (as if our allies have that many available troop and the will to use them) and have a never ending gorilla war against us?Economic sanctions against a country with no economy?Kill the leader and let another leader finish the job?Bribes? More money for the offenders to buy weapons to finish the job.This stuff sucks the big one!!!!!!!! But there is no easy answer on how to stop it.Awareness and money is the mantra of the aide organizations, and is what keeps those agencies in existance... but it has never really helped.
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Awareness and money is the mantra of the aide organizations, and is what keeps those agencies in existance... but it has never really helped.
the thing is, organizations send money to help the victims. The money does help, but the thing is, when they send money the organizations think they are doing enough. they need to send troops to stop the murders.
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The United States has some of the most confusing foreign policy ever. What sense does it make to invade a country, remove their leader, and stay in that country at war for years and years under the pretense that their former leader may or may not have had weapons of mass destruction, and may or may not have attacked us if we didn't do anything; but, when a real situation is going on where thousands upon thousands of people are dying each month, and we have the power to do something..I don't know what exactly..but something, and we do absolutely nothing? I don't have all the answers(or any for that matter), and I don't claim to, I just feel like it doesn't make any sense. It makes me a little more than upset that more people in the US don't find this situation at all unsettling. Like I said, I don't know what exactly can be done(and to be honest, I don't fully support war of any kind) but these are evil people, and something NEEDS to be done about this situation. I'll never fully understand how the President can pat himself on the back for the Iraq situation while letting this just happen. Never.

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The United States has some of the most confusing foreign policy ever. What sense does it make to invade a country, remove their leader, and stay in that country at war for years and years under the pretense that their former leader may or may not have had weapons of mass destruction, and may or may not have attacked us if we didn't do anything; but, when a real situation is going on where thousands upon thousands of people are dying each month, and we have the power to do something..I don't know what exactly..but something, and we do absolutely nothing? I don't have all the answers(or any for that matter), and I don't claim to, I just feel like it doesn't make any sense. It makes me a little more than upset that more people in the US don't find this situation at all unsettling. Like I said, I don't know what exactly can be done(and to be honest, I don't fully support war of any kind) but these are evil people, and something NEEDS to be done about this situation. I'll never fully understand how the President can pat himself on the back for the Iraq situation while letting this just happen. Never.
Only because it seems you don't get it, not because I want to start a debate but I will explain the differenece between Iraq and Dufar.Oil is the backbone of the economy of the entire world. If we lose the oil in the middle east due to Israel nuking it ( in retaliation) or just because Israel is a tough dude, then the entire economy of the world will be crushed on a world wide scale.Millions would starve, etc. and it would take a very long time to rebuild from that.If everyone in Dafur dies, it will not effect the world, except for it's soul. The world sold it's soul long ago.Not saying Im proud of this, but its the cliff notes version for you.
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The United States has some of the most confusing foreign policy ever. What sense does it make to invade a country, remove their leader, and stay in that country at war for years and years under the pretense that their former leader may or may not have had weapons of mass destruction, and may or may not have attacked us if we didn't do anything; but, when a real situation is going on where thousands upon thousands of people are dying each month, and we have the power to do something..I don't know what exactly..but something, and we do absolutely nothing? I don't have all the answers(or any for that matter), and I don't claim to, I just feel like it doesn't make any sense. It makes me a little more than upset that more people in the US don't find this situation at all unsettling. Like I said, I don't know what exactly can be done(and to be honest, I don't fully support war of any kind) but these are evil people, and something NEEDS to be done about this situation. I'll never fully understand how the President can pat himself on the back for the Iraq situation while letting this just happen. Never.
well said, becuase a lot of people don't know what to do, but they know something should be done.I think Clinton said that the stain on his presidency, was not any of the internal affairs he had with monica or anything like that, but it was that he did not do enough in Rwanda. Bush has tried to do things, but he needs to try harder or this will be one of the bigger stains on his presidency
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I know this sounds kind of unreal, but the money could for bribery. If the victims had money, they would not be dying as frecuently as they are. and like a couple of people have said, we don't do anything becuase nobody knows what is happening. If a majority of Americans realized what was happening, the gov't would be forced to take action.
????? If the victims had money they wouldn't be getting killed? Total BS!!!! When the Nazis were killing the Jews they just took their money away from them and killed them anyway. The liberal mentality of "you can talk or buy your way out of anything" does not work when someone comes to kill you. You can't sit down and reason with a fanatic who is hell bent on killing you. Nor can you bribe them. They are going to kill you regardless. Now you are killed and they take your offer off your dead bloody body and use the funds to kill more just like you. That really worked well. People in this country just can't grasp the fact that you can't reason with a fanatic. Money is not their goal. Islam leaders around the world have screamed it over and over again. They want to kill Americans, they want to kill Europeans, they want kill until they have conquered the world. This includes you too Canada, You're not immune from the hate. It's not just in Darfur. Islam has declared war on the entire world. But, some choose not to believe that. Just as Neville Chamberlain went back to England after his meeting with Hitler,and assured the people of the U.K. that Germany meant them no harm, some people just don't get it until it is too late. The U.N. doesn't have manpower to send 500,000 troops into Darfur. Don't confuse the U.N. with NATO. And if NATO took action it would mostly be a U.S. undertaking. People in this country don't want another war front. To stop the killing in Darfur might be a noble cause, but are you willing to pay the price?
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One more note. When I say "are you willing to pay the price?' I mean are you ready to go yourself. I see many of you saying "send troops" I am an Army vet and served in the first Gulf War. I have many friends that are still serving and some are now in Iraq. My cousin's son was killed by an IED in Iraq a year ago last August. All I am saying is if you aren't ready to go yourself or ready to send your sons or daughters or spouses, don't be so quick to start screaming SEND TROOPS. Noble causes are great on TV, but in real life people die carrying out these deeds. And these things cost a lot of money, billions. But if you're willing to give up playing poker and that family vacation and send those funds to the victims of Darfur, then by all means do it. Me? I could care less. We have our own security problems dealing with these fanatical Islam bastards. I would rather we stick to defending ourselves before we go off on another great noble cause.

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I can only comment on my region of the world because it is what I know, but similar violence has occured in our region. In the case of East Timor and Solomon Islands, my country (Australia) has stepped in, provided aid, police forces and troops. Yet, we receive little in return apart from diplomatic heat from our neighbours and anger from the very people we are trying to assist because they don't want us there. Just as things start to become orderly, we pull out, only to have a new wave of violence break out. We have to accept that a lot of governments on third world nations are fundamentally corrupt, but it is so deeply engrained it will be almost impossible to change within our lifetimes. Our tax dollars may, unfortunately, be better spent on problems that can feasibly be remedy. You can't solve religous conflicts and cultural difference by throwing money at them. Let's spend our money and resources somewhere they'll be appreciated.We can't solve every crisis in the world, and I certainly think it is unfair to expect the USA to play the role of world police and to anticipate them to take some sort of action in every instance. As mentioned in this thread the UN is useless, but what could take its place that would be any more useful?

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????? If the victims had money they wouldn't be getting killed? Total BS!!!! When the Nazis were killing the Jews they just took their money away from them and killed them anyway. The liberal mentality of "you can talk or buy your way out of anything" does not work when someone comes to kill you. You can't sit down and reason with a fanatic who is hell bent on killing you. Nor can you bribe them. They are going to kill you regardless. Now you are killed and they take your offer off your dead bloody body and use the funds to kill more just like you. That really worked well. People in this country just can't grasp the fact that you can't reason with a fanatic. Money is not their goal. Islam leaders around the world have screamed it over and over again. They want to kill Americans, they want to kill Europeans, they want kill until they have conquered the world. This includes you too Canada, You're not immune from the hate. It's not just in Darfur. Islam has declared war on the entire world. But, some choose not to believe that. Just as Neville Chamberlain went back to England after his meeting with Hitler,and assured the people of the U.K. that Germany meant them no harm, some people just don't get it until it is too late. The U.N. doesn't have manpower to send 500,000 troops into Darfur. Don't confuse the U.N. with NATO. And if NATO took action it would mostly be a U.S. undertaking. People in this country don't want another war front. To stop the killing in Darfur might be a noble cause, but are you willing to pay the price?
with the armenian genocide and a little bit during the Holocaust, if the victims had enough money they could bribe themselves out.go read The Road from Home by David Kheridian. Many Nazi's were just pawns of Hitler-they didn't necesarily believe what Hitler did, but they were willing to kill the jews nonetheless. If jews had money, they would be able to bribe themselves out.
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with the armenian genocide and a little bit during the Holocaust, if the victims had enough money they could bribe themselves out.go read The Road from Home by David Kheridian. Many Nazi's were just pawns of Hitler-they didn't necesarily believe what Hitler did, but they were willing to kill the jews nonetheless. If jews had money, they would be able to bribe themselves out.
Well damn, I wish you would have been there in the 40s to explain that to those jews who died in those concentration camps. There are many pictures and documents of jewelry and valuables that was taken from the jews just before they killed them, right down to having gold teeth yanked from their mouths. I tell you what. Take up a collection until you have a big briefcase full of money and get on an airplane and take it it to Darfur and see how many you can bribe out of there. Don't bother getting a round trip ticket because I seriously doubt that money will even buy your @$$ a way out.
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Well damn, I wish you would have been there in the 40s to explain that to those jews who died in those concentration camps. There are many pictures and documents of jewelry and valuables that was taken from the jews just before they killed them, right down to having gold teeth yanked from their mouths. I tell you what. Take up a collection until you have a big briefcase full of money and get on an airplane and take it it to Darfur and see how many you can bribe out of there. Don't bother getting a round trip ticket because I seriously doubt that money will even buy your @$$ a way out.
wait...what? before going to the concentration camps, if the Jews had money, they would have been able to remain in the ghettoes.
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wait...what? before going to the concentration camps, if the Jews had money, they would have been able to remain in the ghettoes.
LOL Damn son, If you want to believe that the holocaust was a money driven social issue, then believe it. Ike said it best, "someday some SOB somewhere is gonna say this never happened"
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before going to the concentration camps, if the Jews had money, they would have been able to remain in the ghettoes.
wait...what?
A few Jews may have been able to buy their way out because of their social status, who they knew, etc, but for 99.99% it was entirely impossible. The only ways out were escape or surviving the death camps.
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You guys have misunderstood what the Holocaust is about and why it happened. Go and read a few articles on it before passing these judgments on an the worst genocide in human history. Yes, "The Road home" did show that some Nazis were willing to allow Jews out for a price, but the majority of the prison guards were SS troops that were commanded by Murderous officers who wanted nothing more than to serve Hitler.As for Darfur, I believe we are seeing the start of what will be a worse genocide than the Holocaust. The fact is that Government troops are rolling into villages and wiping them out. Ethnic cleansing is so bad that it is now spilling into Chad and I can see an event like Rwanda happening again. The fact is that over and over the UN has shown itself completely inept in dealing with Africa and Genocide. I believe it now falls on the EU/US/Russia and NATO to do it before it gets worse.

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Only because it seems you don't get it, not because I want to start a debate but I will explain the differenece between Iraq and Dufar.Oil is the backbone of the economy of the entire world. If we lose the oil in the middle east due to Israel nuking it ( in retaliation) or just because Israel is a tough dude, then the entire economy of the world will be crushed on a world wide scale.Millions would starve, etc. and it would take a very long time to rebuild from that.If everyone in Dafur dies, it will not effect the world, except for it's soul. The world sold it's soul long ago.Not saying Im proud of this, but its the cliff notes version for you.
Please forgive my ignorance here, but here goes. There is so much information/misinformation out there that it's been hard to find the truth or anything remotely close to the truth. All we can do as citizens, is gather as much as information via the media and form our own conclusions.I haven't read or heard this from anyone in the current administration, can you please link a source on this from someone in the current administration?What you are saying here makes a lot of sense and I've believed it to some degree, but I never heard Bush, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice or anyone say this. If it was said, it certainly wasn't said to any degree that all the other reasons for going to Iraq were. With that in mind, can you understand how people would be confused why we chose to go to Iraq and ignore a lot of other places?
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I think the Bush administrations worst problem is their PR campaign on this war, the reasons why we went, and what we are doing now. I suspect that they feel it would be too hard to explain, or that we are not smart enough to understand, but they have spent way too much time being defensive about their offensive stance on the war on terror. So I guess they are doing the very thing that caused us to be attacked in the first place, which is allow the other side to frame the argument, then wait to see what they are going to do so we can react to it. It's crazy.I cannot point to a specific policy quote to give you about this, because I am not really that into politics, I just like stirring trouble up on this board.

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You guys have misunderstood what the Holocaust is about and why it happened. Go and read a few articles on it before passing these judgments on an the worst genocide in human history. Yes, "The Road home" did show that some Nazis were willing to allow Jews out for a price, but the majority of the prison guards were SS troops that were commanded by Murderous officers who wanted nothing more than to serve Hitler.
well said...
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http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/...ia_genocide.htm"In April 1992, the U.S. and European Community chose to recognize the independence of Bosnia, a mostly Muslim country where the Serb minority made up 32 percent of the population. Milosevic responded to Bosnia's declaration of independence by attacking Sarajevo, its capital city,""Throughout 1993, confident that the U.N., United States and the European Community would not take militarily action, Serbs in Bosnia freely committed genocide against Muslims.""The U.S. then launched diplomatic efforts aimed at unifying Bosnian Muslims and the Croats [Catholics] against the Serbs [Orthodix Chriatians]. However, this new Muslim-Croat alliance failed to stop the Serbs from attacking Muslim towns in Bosnia, which had been declared Safe Havens by the U.N. A total of six Muslim towns had been established as Safe Havens in May 1993 under the supervision of U.N. peacekeepers.Bosnian Serbs not only attacked the Safe Havens but also attacked the U.N. peacekeepers as well. NATO forces responded by launching limited air strikes against Serb ground positions. The Serbs retaliated by taking hundreds of U.N. peacekeepers as hostages and turning them into human shields, chained to military targets such as ammo supply dumps.At this point, some of the worst genocidal activities of the four-year-old conflict occurred. In Srebrenica, a Safe Haven, U.N. peacekeepers stood by helplessly as the Serbs under the command of General Ratko Mladic systematically selected and then slaughtered nearly 8,000 men and boys between the ages of twelve and sixty - the worst mass murder in Europe since World War II. In addition, the Serbs continued to engage in mass rapes of Muslim females.On August 30, 1995, effective military intervention finally began as the U.S. led a massive NATO bombing campaign in response to the killings at Srebrenica, targeting Serbian artillery positions throughout Bosnia. The bombardment continued into October. Serb forces also lost ground to Bosnian Muslims who had received arms shipments from the Islamic world. As a result, half of Bosnia was eventually retaken by Muslim-Croat troops.....By now, over 200,000 Muslim civilians had been systematically murdered. More than 20,000 were missing and feared dead, while 2,000,000 had become refugees. It was, according to U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, "the greatest failure of the West since the 1930s."The Serbians quit because they grew tired of the never ending war (their own Vietnam/Afghanistan/Iraq) and because the other side got the weapons they needed to fight back.Again, send in troops to stand around and watch?Arm the victims so that it turns into a full scale civil war?Invade with half-a-million troops (as if our allies have that many available troop and the will to use them) and have a never ending gorilla war against us?Economic sanctions against a country with no economy?Kill the leader and let another leader finish the job?Bribes? More money for the offenders to buy weapons to finish the job.This stuff sucks the big one!!!!!!!! But there is no easy answer on how to stop it.Awareness and money is the mantra of the aide organizations, and is what keeps those agencies in existance... but it has never really helped.
I wrote Kosovo, not Bosnia. Milosevic's genocide campaign was pretty much ended by a (relatively) short air campaign.
I think the Bush administrations worst problem is their PR campaign on this war, the reasons why we went, and what we are doing now. I suspect that they feel it would be too hard to explain, or that we are not smart enough to understand.
To borrow from the Brits, bollocks. I suspect they have no interest in telling people their real purposes, and that's the way government has been since government was invented. But, I do agree with your overall point about oil in that America acts in its self interest. Oil is an interest. And it doesn't require a specific mention by those in power to be obvious that it is part of the reasoning.
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I thought I would share this,I was just watching the pro-am equalizer on espn and they showed the preview for next week with Don Cheadle (who played Paul Rusesabagina in Hotel Rwanda).On the DVD of hotel rwanda, cheadle says some things about the genocide in Darfur, and he and George Cloonie have been active in raising awarness of the genocide. Anyways, in the preview for next episode, Cheadle was wearing a Save Darfur sweatshirt, and a bracelet (i think). Hope a lot of people watch and I hope he wins.

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