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God Loves You


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Christians will tell you a lot about the glory of God's love. So let's examine it in a little detail...Think of somebody that means the world to you. Somebody that you love without question. Keep it simple though and make it platonic. Not somebody you desire. A child, a sibling, a parent or a close friend.Now there exists a group of people who represent all that is wrong with the world. A gang that, when they can capture a victim, will attempt to inflict as much pain as they possible can upon that person. They will rape and sodomise, beat, stab, burn and choke. They will selectively break bones one at a time, flay with whips, burst eyeballs like pimples, submerse in acid. You name it they will do it. Then they will nurse their victim back to health so they can repeat they process over and over for years if not decades. A torture so cruel that even if rescued, their victims would be permanently insane.Suppose that somebody had kidnapped the person that I asked you to first think of. What would you do in order to buy their release? Pay money? Give up all you own? Give all that you own and act as the kidnappers slave for years if not the rest of your life? Suffer pain and/or humiliation yourself?Hopefully your answer is the same as mine. A simple 'of course'.Another scenario. Imagine that there is a big red button. If you push it your loved one is given to the gang for them to do with as they please. What would it take to make you push the button? Money? Fame? Sex? Torture? Or maybe if your loved one did something to hurt you? Hit you, or yelled at you, or told you endlessly that they hated you?Hopefully again your answer would be similar to mine in that you would need to be physically picked up and dropped on the button.Pretty simple stuff. What has this got to do with anything? I'm glad you asked.Lets look at how God answers these questions.Obviously the gang is Hell and the loved one is you. The major difference of course is the scale. The pain is worse, the length of the torture is endless and the love that God has for you is supposedly stronger than we are capable.So in the first scenario what is God doing to stop you going to Hell? Well a couple of thousand years ago he spoke to some people and others will tell you that he inspired men to write about him? Not much of an effort there really. I mean if he was all knowing and all powerful, what would it hurt for him to visit us every now and then. I mean us mere mortals would like to think that we would do anything to stop our loved ones going to 'hell'. Anything we possibly could.Now the second. What will it take for God to push the button and send you to Hell? What is worthy of you spending eternity in agony? Killing, raping, stealing? No these are all forgivable. What is so unforgivable that you must be punished in a manner so incredible that you can't come close to imagining it. Simply and amazingly, your thoughts. All you have to do is doubt he exists & your burning. Worse still, some others will tell you that you have to have been baptised as well. If somebody hasn't splashed some water on your head and said a few words, yep your burning. This is not to mention the fact that Hell is supposed to be a punishment, however every crime is countered by a punishment that is appropriate and proportional. Endless torture is not a punishment. It can't be as it is unending and therefore at some point you will have 'paid' for your crimes. Having reached this point you are still faced with endless torture. It's not punishment, its the creation of a very, very sick mind. Now I've kept it very simple but the logic is solid, and I welcome anyone to put it to the test. It's solid enough that when you truly think about it you can come to the following explanations1) God doesn't love us. We are but his playthings he has created and is running the ultimate social experiment on.2) We are not going to Hell at all, there is no Hell. God is simply using the threat of the ultimate punishment to coerce our behaviour. Ergo God is lying to us and doesn't trust us. Fantastic example of ultimate love that we have there.3) There must be some balance of good and evil maintained. As much as God loves us, this balance is required. The implication of this is that God is restrained by rules. If this is the case God is not all-mighty and all-knowing, should we not therefore worship the rule maker? And as God says he is the only God, the only rule maker, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful, again is he lying to us?4) My personal favourite, God does not exist.Now obviously there will those that want to discuss this, however I ask that before replying that you name a person that you love (obviously not their name, but their relationship to you) and answer the initial questions above to keep this philosophical discussion somewhat grounded in reality.So that I am not accused of double standards I will choose my sister and state that I can think of nothing that she would do that would make me want to send her to the gang (or Hell for that matter) for as long as she lives (or all eternity) and if all it took to keep her out of the clutches of the gang was for me to pop in and see her now and then, even though she lives on the other side of the planet, needless to say I would do that and definately a whole lot more.

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Thank you for a well thought out argument Canada. I always like reading your input and hope that "both sides" stay true to this topic and the flaming is kept from this thread. So . . . here goes.In your example the "gang" represents hell. Very vivid by the way (you sicko :club: ). You asked us to name a person that this gang could take and what would you do to keep them from being taken by this gang. I will name 4. My wife, my two sons and my daughter. What would I do? ANY AND EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD TO KEEP THEM FROM SUCH A FATE!!!!!!!!!!!!! So let me be detailed and give you what I, as a Christian, would do. First and foremost I would give myself to God (already have). Now what about my Family? How do I keep them from "the gang"? Different sects believe different things so I will use my beliefs for this discussion. My belief is that God sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. The only way to heaven is accepting Jesus Christ (God) into your heart and life. FUrther, once you truly accept Jesus into your heart there is no turning back. Jesus died for our sins once and for all. The bible tells us that once we repent of our sins God has forgiven them AND forgotten them. So to simplify what I am getting at . . . the simple answer for what I would do to keep my wife and 3 kids from "the gang" is to teach them, keep them in church learning about God, and hoping that they accept Jesus into their hearts. On a side note you mentioned Baptism. My belief is that Baptism is a sign of your choice to accept Christ. It is not a necessary "act" to be accepted into his kingodom. Now let's address the way God has chosen to keep us from "the gang". You say he spoke to some people a long time ago and they wrote a book . . . the Bible. This is true (in my eyes). He used to perform miracles but no more. He used to appear to people but no more. Why? He tells us in the Bible the answer to these questions. I won't go into detail but they are in there (I think you actually know this by the way :D ). So what are we left with? Most people believe that if there is a heaven or hell that it is way to complicated to get into heaven. This is not the case at all. We are left with one little thing . . . a choice! Is that it? Yes, all we have to do is make the choice to accept Jesus (God) into our life and that will keep us from an eternity with "the gang". In your example it appears that "the gang" can just come up and take anybody it wants. Well that is not entirely true. It can only take the ones who haven't made the choice I speak of above. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY WON'T TRY TO GET YOU ANYWAY . . . BUT THIS IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC FOR ANOTHER TIME! But if you have made the choice, and stay surrounded in God's word . . . "the gang" is powerless to get you.So why did God set it up this way? If he loves us why would he give us the potential to spend eternity in hell or with "the gang"? It's simple really. He wanted us to choose him over hell. He gave us a choice to choose and believe in him or not. It's called Free Will. We've argued about this before so I won't go into detail about free will . . . but will only mention it as an explanation. The Bible (to me) is God's word. He gave it to us (all of us) as a guide and reference through our life. Every answer is in there if you read it and MOST importantly believe it. God could make us believe by just simply appearing to us all. But he gives us the choice to believe or not. That is the beauty of God. He doesn't make us do anything. He let's us decide for ourselves. The choice is totally left up to us.In your second example you mention God pushing the button. This is not the case either. God does not push the button. In a way, we push it ourselves. God wants exactly the opposite. He tells us this again in the bible. But he will not force us to believe in him. Again we are given the choice to believe or not. It is totally up to us. A lot of arguments I hear against religion in general is that you are forced to do this or forced to do that for your salvation so why bother? If you simplify it, it really just boils down to believing or not. Nothing is forced. In fact THAT is the exact reason God gives us the choice. He leaves it up to us to show us that he is not making us do anything. He desires all of us to believe in him . . . but let's us choose on our own . . . which is exactly what most people want anyway!So in conclusion to all my rambling. Here's what my answer is to your question. All it takes to be kept from hell ("the gang") is a simple choice of truly believing in God by accepting Jesus into your heart and life. For my family I am extending the same grace God has shown me. I am giving them a choice to make. They can choose to believe or not believe. BUT . . . I am also giving them all the tools that GOD also gave me. I am giving them the word of God in the form of the teachings of the Bible. So, I am doing everything that I can to keep them form hell. I am surrounding my family with God's word to let them decide if they believe in it or not.Good thread Canada!

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Thank you for a well thought out argument Canada. I always like reading your input and hope that "both sides" stay true to this topic and the flaming is kept from this thread. So . . . here goes.In your example the "gang" represents hell. Very vivid by the way (you sicko :club: ). You asked us to name a person that this gang could take and what would you do to keep them from being taken by this gang. I will name 4. My wife, my two sons and my daughter. What would I do? ANY AND EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD TO KEEP THEM FROM SUCH A FATE!!!!!!!!!!!!! So let me be detailed and give you what I, as a Christian, would do. First and foremost I would give myself to God (already have). Now what about my Family? How do I keep them from "the gang"? Different sects believe different things so I will use my beliefs for this discussion. My belief is that God sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. The only way to heaven is accepting Jesus Christ (God) into your heart and life. FUrther, once you truly accept Jesus into your heart there is no turning back. Jesus died for our sins once and for all. The bible tells us that once we repent of our sins God has forgiven them AND forgotten them. So to simplify what I am getting at . . . the simple answer for what I would do to keep my wife and 3 kids from "the gang" is to teach them, keep them in church learning about God, and hoping that they accept Jesus into their hearts. On a side note you mentioned Baptism. My belief is that Baptism is a sign of your choice to accept Christ. It is not a necessary "act" to be accepted into his kingodom. Now let's address the way God has chosen to keep us from "the gang". You say he spoke to some people a long time ago and they wrote a book . . . the Bible. This is true (in my eyes). He used to perform miracles but no more. He used to appear to people but no more. Why? He tells us in the Bible the answer to these questions. I won't go into detail but they are in there (I think you actually know this by the way :D ). So what are we left with? Most people believe that if there is a heaven or hell that it is way to complicated to get into heaven. This is not the case at all. We are left with one little thing . . . a choice! Is that it? Yes, all we have to do is make the choice to accept Jesus (God) into our life and that will keep us from an eternity with "the gang". In your example it appears that "the gang" can just come up and take anybody it wants. Well that is not entirely true. It can only take the ones who haven't made the choice I speak of above. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY WON'T TRY TO GET YOU ANYWAY . . . BUT THIS IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC FOR ANOTHER TIME! But if you have made the choice, and stay surrounded in God's word . . . "the gang" is powerless to get you.So why did God set it up this way? If he loves us why would he give us the potential to spend eternity in hell or with "the gang"? It's simple really. He wanted us to choose him over hell. He gave us a choice to choose and believe in him or not. It's called Free Will. We've argued about this before so I won't go into detail about free will . . . but will only mention it as an explanation. The Bible (to me) is God's word. He gave it to us (all of us) as a guide and reference through our life. Every answer is in there if you read it and MOST importantly believe it. God could make us believe by just simply appearing to us all. But he gives us the choice to believe or not. That is the beauty of God. He doesn't make us do anything. He let's us decide for ourselves. The choice is totally left up to us.In your second example you mention God pushing the button. This is not the case either. God does not push the button. In a way, we push it ourselves. God wants exactly the opposite. He tells us this again in the bible. But he will not force us to believe in him. Again we are given the choice to believe or not. It is totally up to us. A lot of arguments I hear against religion in general is that you are forced to do this or forced to do that for your salvation so why bother? If you simplify it, it really just boils down to believing or not. Nothing is forced. In fact THAT is the exact reason God gives us the choice. He leaves it up to us to show us that he is not making us do anything. He desires all of us to believe in him . . . but let's us choose on our own . . . which is exactly what most people want anyway!So in conclusion to all my rambling. Here's what my answer is to your question. All it takes to be kept from hell ("the gang") is a simple choice of truly believing in God by accepting Jesus into your heart and life. For my family I am extending the same grace God has shown me. I am giving them a choice to make. They can choose to believe or not believe. BUT . . . I am also giving them all the tools that GOD also gave me. I am giving them the word of God in the form of the teachings of the Bible. So, I am doing everything that I can to keep them form hell. I am surrounding my family with God's word to let them decide if they believe in it or not.Good thread Canada!
Thanks FOOSE1.It's a nice reply but it is really the standard answer on 'How easy it to get into heaven' and is not far removed from Pascal's wager. It doesn't answer the question at hand of 'If God loves us, how can he punish us so completely'Yes it's wonderful to have free will and to have the choice to believe, but the point I am making is as simple as it is to make the choice to beleive it is simple enough to make the choice not to, or not even have the choice in the first place. Having made that choice is the punishment of Hell warranted?If your sons and daughter decide that they doubt God exists, do you think they deserve to be sent to Hell. Could you do that to them? If God loves them more than you do, which he claims, how could he do that to them? You've already stated that you will do everything that you can to stop this happening. Why is God not putting in the same effort?Countless people have died doubting God's existence or believing in other Gods. Is that such a horrific act that they must be tortured for all eternity(and yes I made it graphic to ensure we are not being flippant with the concept of hell - it's not just the naughty step).I say it isn't and that any being that loved another could not punish that creature for all eternity for something, which as you said, is so simple as a decision.Don't forget, it doesn't have to be this way. It's God's choice to allow Hell to exist.Also all Christians if they were being honest with themselves would agree that at some point in their life they have had a crisis or lack of faith. It's human nature. Wouldn't it have been bad luck to get bumped off during that time? Don't forget of course that freewill dictates that that could've happened. Wow, eternal bliss or eternal damnation just became a lottery! Surely not the product of a being that loves us.So look at it not from the point of view of todays actions to get into heaven, but assume that your family has lived their lives to the full, that they have been the kind and wonderful people that you will help them to become and then they die doubting God's existence for whatever reason. Is that a crime that deserves the ultimate punishment?I think you as someone who loves them and presumably would be waiting for them in heaven, who would never get to see them again would question God's judgement and therefore his love for them. Also how would you spend all eternity in hapiness know that every 'day' people you knew and loved were burning and being tortured. It may not be your family, but you can just about guarantee that someone you care for will doubt God's existence and end up in Hell. How could you possibly spend eternity happy with this knowledge?Put yourself in that scenario and imagine how you would feel.
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1) God doesn't love us. We are but his playthings he has created and is running the ultimate social experiment on.2) We are not going to Hell at all, there is no Hell. God is simply using the threat of the ultimate punishment to coerce our behaviour. Ergo God is lying to us and doesn't trust us. Fantastic example of ultimate love that we have there.3) There must be some balance of good and evil maintained. As much as God loves us, this balance is required. The implication of this is that God is restrained by rules. If this is the case God is not all-mighty and all-knowing, should we not therefore worship the rule maker? And as God says he is the only God, the only rule maker, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful, again is he lying to us?4) My personal favourite, God does not exist.
5. hell is just about big halloween parties and god is a buddhist(south park theology)
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A mythology which provides a carrot (you can get to heaven after death) and a stick (you will be sent to hell after deathl) is much more "fit for survival" than the prior mythologies which did not promice an afterlife, placing humans in the middle of these sets of Gods here and now in this lifetime.Therefore, when such a mythology evolved, it out competed other religions....And since humans are highly capable of holding false beliefs (ghosts, UFO abductions, lucky charms, superstitions, steriotypes, traditions, mythologies, urban legends, etc) ... really, it is our default mode of operation, the most fit false beliefs are the ones we (not each of us, but a collective "us") hold today.

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Very good argument Canada. This is exactly why I like you so much (in a non-gay, non-stalker way just to be clear). You make me think. The truth is I really don't know how to answer a lot of your points. I know - shocking - a christian that doesn't pretend to know everything! I will give it to you that you make some great arguments. I can not disagree with a lot of what you said. Every christian, I don't care who they are, struggle with thoughts like you mentioned. There have been plenty of times that I have questioned God. Not only have I questioned his decisions regarding my life, but also whether he existed at all at times. Of course I always come to the conclusion that he does exist and only he knows what's best for me in the long run. God knows our hearts too. You asked about living a good life and having doubt before you die. God tells us that once you accept God into your life you are forgiven. That does not mean you are perfect. God does not disown us for doubt. Doubt is a human emotion. But if you truly believe, in your heart, that is what God sees. But really the only way I know to answer this will be viewed by others, and probably you, as a "standard" christian answer. 'If God loves us, how can he punish us so completely' I don't know. I will never know while I am still on this earth. Only God can answer this question. Some people feel that there are degrees of heaven and hell. Some believe that hell is just seperation from God for eternity. Some people believe that everyone will be given one last chance to accept him before being sent to hell. The truth is, nobody knows except him. God has a plan. He has from the very beginning of time. We are not meant to understand the true power that God holds or why things are the way they are. We are just supposed to accept them and have FAITH in God. Yes, I know that is hard for many people to understand. To be honest, it was hard for me before I really knew God or when I was a "new" christian. Faith is only a concept that can be lived in my opinion. Until you live with Faith you can never truly understand what it means. So for me to ty and explain just sounds like "standard" answers . . . and I understand why they sound that way because I have been there.If your sons and daughter decide that they doubt God exists, do you think they deserve to be sent to Hell. Could you do that to them? If God loves them more than you do, which he claims, how could he do that to them? You've already stated that you will do everything that you can to stop this happening. Why is God not putting in the same effort? The answer to the first part is NO! They definately do not deserve hell and no I could not do that to them. Why is God not putting in the same effort? I believe he does just not the way that we, as humans, think. God gave us his word in the Bible. We have already said that. The Bible (in my opinion) is the word of God. It explains all form the beginning of time. But more importantly he has given us the Holy Spirit. Again, just like Faith, this is a hard concept for someone to understand unless they have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit. Through studying scripture, learning about God and growing in your Faith you begin to recognize the "signs", so to speak, of God surrounding you. You hear people talking about the Holy Spirit filling them or talking to them. LET ME BE CLEAR . . . this does not mean that God literally is speaking to you in an audible fashion. But God, through the Holy Spirit lays things on your heart . . . and again you have the choice to listen or not. No matter who you are, God is always with you. He desires for a relationship with you, but again it is everyone's individual choice whether they choose him or not. So back to the question why is he not putting in more of an effort. Like I said, I believe he does daily. I just believe that more and more people are choosing not to listen to him. As far as physical signs or him providing proof for us all to see . . . He did that once and for all . . . He gave his only begotten son, for whosoever shall believith in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Of course I am paraphrasing scipture there. But what that was about is clear and he has made clear why he doesn't "perform signs" any longer. God made the ultimate sacrifice for us. He gave the world one final sacrifice so that we shall all be forgiven of our sins. He gave his only son to us, as a blood sacrifice for our sins. When Jesus died, God said, It is finished. What was he telling us? He told us that we are forgiven for our sins and the only thing we must do is accept him as our persional lord and savior. So really, this just brings us back to the same point. You and I both know that this is a circular argument. Why does God give us such a choice in the first place where the consequences are so severe? I don't know? I don't pretend to understand why. The only real difference between you and I is that I have Faith in God and HIS reasons. I have Faith that he has a plan for me and that is good enough for me. I have come to the conclusion that I am not really meant to understand the "why". I am just meant to understand the "who".

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God is omnipotent. God is omniscient. God can see the future. God can see the choices we make in the future.So... why doesn't God just put the people he knows will love him in Heaven the people he knows won't love him in Hell?

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Very good argument Canada. This is exactly why I like you so much (in a non-gay, non-stalker way just to be clear). You make me think. The truth is I really don't know how to answer a lot of your points. I know - shocking - a christian that doesn't pretend to know everything! I will give it to you that you make some great arguments. I can not disagree with a lot of what you said. Every christian, I don't care who they are, struggle with thoughts like you mentioned. There have been plenty of times that I have questioned God. Not only have I questioned his decisions regarding my life, but also whether he existed at all at times. Of course I always come to the conclusion that he does exist and only he knows what's best for me in the long run. God knows our hearts too. You asked about living a good life and having doubt before you die. God tells us that once you accept God into your life you are forgiven. That does not mean you are perfect. God does not disown us for doubt. Doubt is a human emotion. But if you truly believe, in your heart, that is what God sees. But really the only way I know to answer this will be viewed by others, and probably you, as a "standard" christian answer. 'If God loves us, how can he punish us so completely' I don't know. I will never know while I am still on this earth. Only God can answer this question. Some people feel that there are degrees of heaven and hell. Some believe that hell is just seperation from God for eternity. Some people believe that everyone will be given one last chance to accept him before being sent to hell. The truth is, nobody knows except him. God has a plan. He has from the very beginning of time. We are not meant to understand the true power that God holds or why things are the way they are. We are just supposed to accept them and have FAITH in God. Yes, I know that is hard for many people to understand. To be honest, it was hard for me before I really knew God or when I was a "new" christian. Faith is only a concept that can be lived in my opinion. Until you live with Faith you can never truly understand what it means. So for me to ty and explain just sounds like "standard" answers . . . and I understand why they sound that way because I have been there.If your sons and daughter decide that they doubt God exists, do you think they deserve to be sent to Hell. Could you do that to them? If God loves them more than you do, which he claims, how could he do that to them? You've already stated that you will do everything that you can to stop this happening. Why is God not putting in the same effort? The answer to the first part is NO! They definately do not deserve hell and no I could not do that to them. Why is God not putting in the same effort? I believe he does just not the way that we, as humans, think. God gave us his word in the Bible. We have already said that. The Bible (in my opinion) is the word of God. It explains all form the beginning of time. But more importantly he has given us the Holy Spirit. Again, just like Faith, this is a hard concept for someone to understand unless they have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit. Through studying scripture, learning about God and growing in your Faith you begin to recognize the "signs", so to speak, of God surrounding you. You hear people talking about the Holy Spirit filling them or talking to them. LET ME BE CLEAR . . . this does not mean that God literally is speaking to you in an audible fashion. But God, through the Holy Spirit lays things on your heart . . . and again you have the choice to listen or not. No matter who you are, God is always with you. He desires for a relationship with you, but again it is everyone's individual choice whether they choose him or not. So back to the question why is he not putting in more of an effort. Like I said, I believe he does daily. I just believe that more and more people are choosing not to listen to him. As far as physical signs or him providing proof for us all to see . . . He did that once and for all . . . He gave his only begotten son, for whosoever shall believith in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Of course I am paraphrasing scipture there. But what that was about is clear and he has made clear why he doesn't "perform signs" any longer. God made the ultimate sacrifice for us. He gave the world one final sacrifice so that we shall all be forgiven of our sins. He gave his only son to us, as a blood sacrifice for our sins. When Jesus died, God said, It is finished. What was he telling us? He told us that we are forgiven for our sins and the only thing we must do is accept him as our persional lord and savior. So really, this just brings us back to the same point. You and I both know that this is a circular argument. Why does God give us such a choice in the first place where the consequences are so severe? I don't know? I don't pretend to understand why. The only real difference between you and I is that I have Faith in God and HIS reasons. I have Faith that he has a plan for me and that is good enough for me. I have come to the conclusion that I am not really meant to understand the "why". I am just meant to understand the "who".
Thanks FOOSE1. I appreciate your honesty in stating that you can't answer some of the harder questions.Firstly I want to address your point of the ultimate sacrifice you mentioned. I want you to think really how much of a sacrifice it is. Did God lose his son? Was he ever at risk of losing his son? If anybody actually sacrificed anything was it God or was it Jesus? What did Jesus suffer? 32 years out of heaven (which compared to eternity is the same as 30 seconds, 30 milliseconds or even no time at all, but I won't confuse this thread with math). The pain of being killed?Granted that last would hurt, but would you not die to save your loved ones? Also if you knew that your eternal soul was safe is that really a sacrifice?I'm sorry but it doesn't measure up. The whole life and sacrifice of Jesus might seem special to us from the stand point of a mere mortal, but from the point of view of a holy spirit there is barely any. It is not the 'Ultimate' sacrifice that Christianity promotes.As to the unanswered questions I don't think we can dismiss them with misunderstood scripture and/or the Christian SOP of 'God's mysterious ways'The Bible is quite clear about hell-fire and the fact that we will end up in it for all eternity.We all know love, true love. And we all know that we could not condem anyone that we love to any form of eternal punishment. It's fairly obvious that the claim that 'God loves us' is not true then, which weighed with other evidence we have covered over and over tells me simply that God does not exist.Theists will argue that atheists/agnostics don't have Faith, but one thing we all share is the ability to love and to end poetically I give you 1 Cor 13:13 where my love trumps your faith :club:
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Thanks FOOSE1. I appreciate your honesty in stating that you can't answer some of the harder questions.Firstly I want to address your point of the ultimate sacrifice you mentioned. I want you to think really how much of a sacrifice it is. Did God lose his son? Was he ever at risk of losing his son? If anybody actually sacrificed anything was it God or was it Jesus? What did Jesus suffer? 32 years out of heaven (which compared to eternity is the same as 30 seconds, 30 milliseconds or even no time at all, but I won't confuse this thread with math). The pain of being killed?Granted that last would hurt, but would you not die to save your loved ones? Also if you knew that your eternal soul was safe is that really a sacrifice?I'm sorry but it doesn't measure up. The whole life and sacrifice of Jesus might seem special to us from the stand point of a mere mortal, but from the point of view of a holy spirit there is barely any. It is not the 'Ultimate' sacrifice that Christianity promotes.As to the unanswered questions I don't think we can dismiss them with misunderstood scripture and/or the Christian SOP of 'God's mysterious ways'The Bible is quite clear about hell-fire and the fact that we will end up in it for all eternity.We all know love, true love. And we all know that we could not condem anyone that we love to any form of eternal punishment. It's fairly obvious that the claim that 'God loves us' is not true then, which weighed with other evidence we have covered over and over tells me simply that God does not exist.Theists will argue that atheists/agnostics don't have Faith, but one thing we all share is the ability to love and to end poetically I give you 1 Cor 13:13 where my love trumps your faith :club:
I like your point about Jesus sacrifice. It really is a good way to illustrate Jesus being his own entity, with the pain of choosing either way. Your still missing the point- "If you love me, keep my commanments." If you don't, why should he go out of his way to accomodate you? He could not have made it any easier- love me, eternal life. Ignore me, eternal damnation. Sounds fair to me.
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Your still missing the point- "If you love me, keep my commanments." If you don't, why should he go out of his way to accomodate you? He could not have made it any easier- love me, eternal life. Ignore me, eternal damnation. Sounds fair to me.
Oh I get the point completely. I am simply stating that no rational, loving being could create such a hideous scenario to begin with.If your daughter doubted God's existance at the time of her death could you escort her to Hell and leave her there?If she locked herself in her room and ignored you, would you send her to 'the gang'. What excuse would you use when the police arrested you?
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Oh I get the point completely. I am simply stating that no rational, loving being could create such a hideous scenario to begin with.If your daughter doubted God's existance at the time of her death could you escort her to Hell and leave her there?
I am not sure that an argument can be made that it could logically be any other way and still maintain freedom of choice. There must be opposites for everything, right? I mean, broken down in it's most simplistic form that's all christianity(God) does, is present both sides. No- thank God it's not up to me. That will be between her and God. That is something I have thought about though- there are times when I am struggling that I wonder how hard it will be for her to get to heaven, if she will struggle as I do- all I can do is show her by example the potential of a life guided by God. Man, I need to do a better job of that.
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I am not sure that an argument can be made that it could logically be any other way and still maintain freedom of choice. There must be opposites for everything, right? I mean, broken down in it's most simplistic form that's all christianity(God) does, is present both sides. No- thank God it's not up to me. That will be between her and God. That is something I have thought about though- there are times when I am struggling that I wonder how hard it will be for her to get to heaven, if she will struggle as I do- all I can do is show her by example the potential of a life guided by God. Man, I need to do a better job of that.
So you buy into answer #3 then
3) There must be some balance of good and evil maintained. As much as God loves us, this balance is required. The implication of this is that God is restrained by rules. If this is the case God is not all-mighty and all-knowing, should we not therefore worship the rule maker? And as God says he is the only God, the only rule maker, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful, again is he lying to us?
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So you buy into answer #3 then
To a certain point. I stop at God being bound by rules as much as we are, in that the rules as it were, well, he made them. They are the rules set forth for humanity as we know it, and they make sense, even from a scientific standpoint.
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To a certain point. I stop at God being bound by rules as much as we are, in that the rules as it were, well, he made them. They are the rules set forth for humanity as we know it, and they make sense, even from a scientific standpoint.
If he made them he has control over them and he can therefore change them.So he is not forced to maintain any balance. He does so for his 'entertainment'. He chooses to send souls to Hell for the heinous crime of doubting, yet he creates the conditions that will make the vast majority doubt...
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Because you didn't love him back. It's actually quite simple.
I missed this one earlier. So run your person(s) of choice through the OP. You would really do that if they simply didn't love you.It's not simple, it's maniacal.Papers are filled with murder/rape/abuse stories of people who hurt others because they wouldn't love them back? Are you suggesting these victims deserved it?
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Christians will tell you a lot about the glory of God's love. So let's examine it in a little detail...Think of somebody that means the world to you. Somebody that you love without question. Keep it simple though and make it platonic. Not somebody you desire. A child, a sibling, a parent or a close friend.Now there exists a group of people who represent all that is wrong with the world. A gang that, when they can capture a victim, will attempt to inflict as much pain as they possible can upon that person. They will rape and sodomise, beat, stab, burn and choke. They will selectively break bones one at a time, flay with whips, burst eyeballs like pimples, submerse in acid. You name it they will do it. Then they will nurse their victim back to health so they can repeat they process over and over for years if not decades. A torture so cruel that even if rescued, their victims would be permanently insane.Suppose that somebody had kidnapped the person that I asked you to first think of. What would you do in order to buy their release? Pay money? Give up all you own? Give all that you own and act as the kidnappers slave for years if not the rest of your life? Suffer pain and/or humiliation yourself?Hopefully your answer is the same as mine. A simple 'of course'.Another scenario. Imagine that there is a big red button. If you push it your loved one is given to the gang for them to do with as they please. What would it take to make you push the button? Money? Fame? Sex? Torture? Or maybe if your loved one did something to hurt you? Hit you, or yelled at you, or told you endlessly that they hated you?Hopefully again your answer would be similar to mine in that you would need to be physically picked up and dropped on the button.Pretty simple stuff. What has this got to do with anything? I'm glad you asked.Lets look at how God answers these questions.Obviously the gang is Hell and the loved one is you. The major difference of course is the scale. The pain is worse, the length of the torture is endless and the love that God has for you is supposedly stronger than we are capable.So in the first scenario what is God doing to stop you going to Hell? Well a couple of thousand years ago he spoke to some people and others will tell you that he inspired men to write about him? Not much of an effort there really. I mean if he was all knowing and all powerful, what would it hurt for him to visit us every now and then. I mean us mere mortals would like to think that we would do anything to stop our loved ones going to 'hell'. Anything we possibly could.Now the second. What will it take for God to push the button and send you to Hell? What is worthy of you spending eternity in agony? Killing, raping, stealing? No these are all forgivable. What is so unforgivable that you must be punished in a manner so incredible that you can't come close to imagining it. Simply and amazingly, your thoughts. All you have to do is doubt he exists & your burning. Worse still, some others will tell you that you have to have been baptised as well. If somebody hasn't splashed some water on your head and said a few words, yep your burning. This is not to mention the fact that Hell is supposed to be a punishment, however every crime is countered by a punishment that is appropriate and proportional. Endless torture is not a punishment. It can't be as it is unending and therefore at some point you will have 'paid' for your crimes. Having reached this point you are still faced with endless torture. It's not punishment, its the creation of a very, very sick mind. Now I've kept it very simple but the logic is solid, and I welcome anyone to put it to the test. It's solid enough that when you truly think about it you can come to the following explanations1) God doesn't love us. We are but his playthings he has created and is running the ultimate social experiment on.2) We are not going to Hell at all, there is no Hell. God is simply using the threat of the ultimate punishment to coerce our behaviour. Ergo God is lying to us and doesn't trust us. Fantastic example of ultimate love that we have there.3) There must be some balance of good and evil maintained. As much as God loves us, this balance is required. The implication of this is that God is restrained by rules. If this is the case God is not all-mighty and all-knowing, should we not therefore worship the rule maker? And as God says he is the only God, the only rule maker, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful, again is he lying to us?4) My personal favourite, God does not exist.Now obviously there will those that want to discuss this, however I ask that before replying that you name a person that you love (obviously not their name, but their relationship to you) and answer the initial questions above to keep this philosophical discussion somewhat grounded in reality.So that I am not accused of double standards I will choose my sister and state that I can think of nothing that she would do that would make me want to send her to the gang (or Hell for that matter) for as long as she lives (or all eternity) and if all it took to keep her out of the clutches of the gang was for me to pop in and see her now and then, even though she lives on the other side of the planet, needless to say I would do that and definately a whole lot more.
I like this exercise, good job. Let me turn it around a little. Say your sister was living with you. Things are going good for a while, she doesn't help out much around the house but you love having her around to talk to and visit with. You give her free reign of your home. The only thing you ask is that she leave the new car in the garage because it is not insured yet. You are waiting until payday to get your check so you can pay the insurance. If she wants to go somewhere she is welcome to use the old reliable car which is insured. As a matter of fact, you are going to give her the old car as soon as you get the insurance paid up for your new car. Well, this hot guy comes over one night. He is jobless, and carless, but really a hunk. He wants to go out, so your sister says sure, and they go out to get in the car. When outside the hunk sees the new car, and talks your sister into taking it instead of the insured car. They take it out, total it, and cause a 25 car pile up killing 12 people. It is your car so your sister and you owe for a totaled car and millions of dollars in liablity. Despite this royal screw up on her part, you forgive her, you just ask that she get a job to help off set the expenses she caused from wrecking the car and killing a bunch of people. She says she will but she doesn't get a job, but instead is still hanging out with the hunk. She feels guilty at first but her hunk and her have begun drinking and using drugs so everything is quickly forgotten. You, your wife, and your oldest son are all working 2 jobs to try and begin to pay off all the debt you owe. Your son sells his house and moves his family in with you. Your sister fails to get a job and has begun using drugs in your house. The hunk gets drunk one night and rapes your grand daughter while your sister is passed out. You love your sister very much, and want to help her so much, but it has become evident that she can't stay in your house anymore until she cleans up her act, gets rid of the hunk, and agrees to follow a few rules. She refuses to do this. So for the good of the others in your family you kick her out of your house. She continues to use drugs and begins commiting crimes with her hunk. They have a baby and neglect it to the point that it dies and they are arrested and put in jail for life. Question, did you put them in jail?God wants you in heaven with him, but he can't except unrepentent sinners in his house. If you refuse to repent, then you aren't allowed in his house, and you are left to fend for yourself. He doesnt' punish you, He simply leaves you to your own devices.
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I like this exercise, good job. Let me turn it around a little. Say your sister was living with you. Things are going good for a while, she doesn't help out much around the house but you love having her around to talk to and visit with. You give her free reign of your home. The only thing you ask is that she leave the new car in the garage because it is not insured yet. You are waiting until payday to get your check so you can pay the insurance. If she wants to go somewhere she is welcome to use the old reliable car which is insured. As a matter of fact, you are going to give her the old car as soon as you get the insurance paid up for your new car. Well, this hot guy comes over one night. He is jobless, and carless, but really a hunk. He wants to go out, so your sister says sure, and they go out to get in the car. When outside the hunk sees the new car, and talks your sister into taking it instead of the insured car. They take it out, total it, and cause a 25 car pile up killing 12 people. It is your car so your sister and you owe for a totaled car and millions of dollars in liablity. Despite this royal screw up on her part, you forgive her, you just ask that she get a job to help off set the expenses she caused from wrecking the car and killing a bunch of people. She says she will but she doesn't get a job, but instead is still hanging out with the hunk. She feels guilty at first but her hunk and her have begun drinking and using drugs so everything is quickly forgotten. You, your wife, and your oldest son are all working 2 jobs to try and begin to pay off all the debt you owe. Your son sells his house and moves his family in with you. Your sister fails to get a job and has begun using drugs in your house. The hunk gets drunk one night and rapes your grand daughter while your sister is passed out. You love your sister very much, and want to help her so much, but it has become evident that she can't stay in your house anymore until she cleans up her act, gets rid of the hunk, and agrees to follow a few rules. She refuses to do this. So for the good of the others in your family you kick her out of your house. She continues to use drugs and begins commiting crimes with her hunk. They have a baby and neglect it to the point that it dies and they are arrested and put in jail for life. Question, did you put them in jail?
That's a terribly worded analogy.Are you asking am I responsible for her being in jail?orDid I arrest her and put her in jail?orDid I call the police and put her in jail?or Would I put her in jail?or Does she deserve jail?Regardless, she commited crimes and deserves proportional punishment. Sure I wouldn't want her to go to jail and there are certain things that I would be willing to turn a blind eye to and help her avoid the law for because I love her and wouldn't want her to suffer.However there is a limit and at some point in your scenario I would find it reasonable if she was punished for her actions. The final punishment is proportional under the understanding that if she reforms and regrets then parole would be an option after a large portion of her sentence had passed.
God wants you in heaven with him, but he can't except unrepentent sinners in his house. If you refuse to repent, then you aren't allowed in his house, and you are left to fend for yourself. He doesnt' punish you, He simply leaves you to your own devices.
Now this is where you are way off track. The bible clearly states that it's heaven or hell and that it is eternal damnation. You may want to PC it up, but even if it is through a lack of action on his behalf it is still punishment. Especially when you remember that he created the whole heaven/hell concept and the rules on who gets in or not.No crime deserves that punishment, especially the minor one of making a mental choice that affects no other person.Your analogy simply lists a series of 'increasing' crimes that any reasonable person would expect another individual, loved or not, to be proportionally punished for
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That's a terribly worded analogy.Are you asking am I responsible for her being in jail?orDid I arrest her and put her in jail?orDid I call the police and put her in jail?or Would I put her in jail?or Does she deserve jail?Regardless, she commited crimes and deserves proportional punishment. Sure I wouldn't want her to go to jail and there are certain things that I would be willing to turn a blind eye to and help her avoid the law for because I love her and wouldn't want her to suffer.However there is a limit and at some point in your scenario I would find it reasonable if she was punished for her actions. The final punishment is proportional under the understanding that if she reforms and regrets then parole would be an option after a large portion of her sentence had passed.Now this is where you are way off track. The bible clearly states that it's heaven or hell and that it is eternal damnation. You may want to PC it up, but even if it is through a lack of action on his behalf it is still punishment. Especially when you remember that he created the whole heaven/hell concept and the rules on who gets in or not.No crime deserves that punishment, especially the minor one of making a mental choice that affects no other person.Your analogy simply lists a series of 'increasing' crimes that any reasonable person would expect another individual, loved or not, to be proportionally punished for
Sorry, Are you responsible for her being in jail? is the question I was asking. I really wasn't discussing punishment at all. I was simply illustrating how and why someone would be kicked out of your house, or not allowed to enter your house. It has nothing to do with proportional punishment. The fact is there is a point where you simply can't allow someone to live in your house and it still remain safe and secure. God cannot allow sinners to enter his house period. If he did it would be no different than earth. You also talk about dying while in a moment of doubt. You wouldn't be sent to Hell for having doubts. But to unapologetically continue to live in sin, yes that is where you are going to end up. By the way there are many different perspectives on what exactly is meant by Hell, or Ghenna. There are several intrepitations. This is actually an area I am very interested with. I am studying about this now. I will let you know what I learn.
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If he made them he has control over them and he can therefore change them.So he is not forced to maintain any balance. He does so for his 'entertainment'. He chooses to send souls to Hell for the heinous crime of doubting, yet he creates the conditions that will make the vast majority doubt...
Sure he could change them but why? He wants us to try and obtain perfection,God wants a certain standard upheld to gain entrance to eternal life in heaven- remember, Satan was at one time and Angel, as close to God as he could be, and God made the choice to cast him out, because he was no longer worthy. Why should that not apply to you and I, especially when the information needed is right in front of us? Just becuse it's not good enough for you doesn't mean it's not good enough. You say you have tested God and found him wanting, but what he says to that is YOU are the one who lacks, because you lack the capacity to look past your own doubts and believe. Nobody is questioning that your doubt is real or even that it isn't substantiated, but I will question why you think it would even matter to him what you think? The only reason that the vast majority doubt is the vast majority are driven by there sin, and nothing else, which has been true forever. Most people want nothing to do with what is good and pure because it is not pleasing to the flesh, and the evidence of this is literally everywhere.
I missed this one earlier. So run your person(s) of choice through the OP. You would really do that if they simply didn't love you.It's not simple, it's maniacal.Papers are filled with murder/rape/abuse stories of people who hurt others because they wouldn't love them back? Are you suggesting these victims deserved it?
Are you suggesting that you are being victimized when you are clearly given choices every day regarding God? That would be like me being pissed of because I always ate peanut butter and jelly but there was chicken soup in the cupboard, which I ignored. I am still pissed, though. How does that make sense?
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Sure he could change them but why?
Because leaving them in place shows that he is a sadistic evil creature that doesn't love us.Perhaps if you showed the same courtesy as FOOSE1 and went through and answered the OP as it was put to you, your answers would be in context.I am asking if you could punish those you love as completely as God does for not loving you.Would you take a blow torch to your daughters face if she told you that she didn't love you? Of course you wouldn't, but God quite happily tells us he will.
Are you suggesting that you are being victimized when you are clearly given choices every day regarding God? That would be like me being pissed of because I always ate peanut butter and jelly but there was chicken soup in the cupboard, which I ignored. I am still pissed, though. How does that make sense?
It doesn't make sense because it is so far off course it is irrelevant. I notice you always like making these little analogies to make an argument, however they are always:
  • Food related
  • Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand

Perhaps if you thought less of your stomach and more of your argument you might raise some valid pointsLet me fix your analogy...You open you cupboard and there is peanut butter and there is chicken soup. On the box of the chicken soup is a blurb that says 'Full of healthy goodness'Hmmm which do you choose?You choose the peanut butter and as you do six men kick your door in and tackle you to the floor. They take turns sodomising you until you pass out.Afterwards, as you come to, you look up at the chicken soup speaks to you"That's what you get for rejecting me - Oh and I love you"

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Sorry, Are you responsible for her being in jail? is the question I was asking.Ok then, the answer is no. I am not responsible for her being in jail.I really wasn't discussing punishment at all.Well given that the OP is all about punishment, the punishment that is promised to us in the Bible, you haven't turned it around, you have changed the subject.I was simply illustrating how and why someone would be kicked out of your house, or not allowed to enter your house. It has nothing to do with proportional punishment. The fact is there is a point where you simply can't allow someone to live in your house and it still remain safe and secure. God cannot allow sinners to enter his house period. If he did it would be no different than earth.Few points here:You had to go through a long list to finally get to a point where I would exclude my sister from my house. Gods list has one item on it (2 if you include baptisim) that is insignificant if you believe in free will.In excluding her from my house I am not condeming her to endless torture and punishment, she is still capable of choosing her surroundings and lifestyle. God does not offer us that.God can choose to let anyone in his house because he has the ability to wash away all sin.God is all knowing and all powerful so his house will always remain safe and secure.It would be completely different to Earth as there would be no doubt as to Gods existanceYou also talk about dying while in a moment of doubt. You wouldn't be sent to Hell for having doubts. Why not? To get in to heaven you have to be free of sin. To have your sins washed away you need to believe in God. If I believed in God yesterday, but today God's a maybe and tommorow he's a no, there is a point where I'm getting in and where I'm not.I'm quite happy to guess that the vast majority, if not all Chrisitans have an element of Pascals wager wrapped up in their belief ie I better believe because if I'm wrong... It's only human nature. You had better hope that the point from above is closer to tommorow than it is to yesterday.By the way there are many different perspectives on what exactly is meant by Hell, or Ghenna. There are several intrepitations. This is actually an area I am very interested with. I am studying about this now. I will let you know what I learn.I would be interested to read what you come up with, and how you arrive at your conclussions. You are going to have to do some fancy foot work to get around phrases like 'eternal damnation' and 'hell fire'A tongue in cheek warning though - don't mis-represent what is written in scripture though, that's a sin.

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Why not? To get in to heaven you have to be free of sin. To have your sins washed away you need to believe in God. If I believed in God yesterday, but today God's a maybe and tommorow he's a no, there is a point where I'm getting in and where I'm not.I would like to comment on this Canada. The bible tells us (in Hebrews by the way) that once you have repented and asked God for forgiveness of your sins he not only forgives them . . . he forgets them. As a christian myself, you are right, I have doubted from time to time . . . even if just slightly. You also are right, this is a sin . . . however . . . in your illustration above if I died during a time of doubt (a sin) I would go to hell. You also stated that you have to be free of sin to get into heaven. Both of these points are incorrect and can be backed by scripture. To answer both at the same time . . . we all are sinners period. God recognized this and THAT is the reason he sent Jesus to die for our sins. God knew that as humans we are sinful by nature and that we could never . . . ever . . . enter heaven on our own. We HAD to have a final sacrifice (Jesus) to cleanse us. That is also why scripture says that no one can get to heaven except through him who saved us (Jesus). So what I'm getting at is that once you ask Jesus (God) into your life and you have accepted him as your lord and savior . . . you are forgiven of your sins . . . all of them. So dying while in doubt or any other sin for that matter does not mean you are going to hell if you have already asked God into your life. BECAUSE . . . insert breathe here . . . when we die (all of us) it will be during a time of sin in our life. We all sin daily no matter who we are and again the bible tells us that God views all sin the same, whether it's doubt or whatever . . . sin is sin to God. So to God, we as humans, are not capable of being "perfect". We can never achieve this. Any christian who claims to be perfect is lying (a sin :club: ). I hate using this phrase but I guess it fits in this situation . . . "A christian is not perfect . . . just forgiven".A tongue in cheek warning though - don't mis-represent what is written in scripture though, that's a sin.Oh . . . by the way . . . this made me laugh . . . nice one! :D

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Why not? To get in to heaven you have to be free of sin. To have your sins washed away you need to believe in God. If I believed in God yesterday, but today God's a maybe and tommorow he's a no, there is a point where I'm getting in and where I'm not.I would like to comment on this Canada. The bible tells us (in Hebrews by the way) that once you have repented and asked God for forgiveness of your sins he not only forgives them . . . he forgets them. As a christian myself, you are right, I have doubted from time to time . . . even if just slightly. You also are right, this is a sin . . . however . . . in your illustration above if I died during a time of doubt (a sin) I would go to hell. You also stated that you have to be free of sin to get into heaven. Both of these points are incorrect and can be backed by scripture. To answer both at the same time . . . we all are sinners period. God recognized this and THAT is the reason he sent Jesus to die for our sins. God knew that as humans we are sinful by nature and that we could never . . . ever . . . enter heaven on our own. We HAD to have a final sacrifice (Jesus) to cleanse us. That is also why scripture says that no one can get to heaven except through him who saved us (Jesus). So what I'm getting at is that once you ask Jesus (God) into your life and you have accepted him as your lord and savior . . . you are forgiven of your sins . . . all of them. So dying while in doubt or any other sin for that matter does not mean you are going to hell if you have already asked God into your life. BECAUSE . . . insert breathe here . . . when we die (all of us) it will be during a time of sin in our life. We all sin daily no matter who we are and again the bible tells us that God views all sin the same, whether it's doubt or whatever . . . sin is sin to God. So to God, we as humans, are not capable of being "perfect". We can never achieve this. Any christian who claims to be perfect is lying (a sin :D ). I hate using this phrase but I guess it fits in this situation . . . "A christian is not perfect . . . just forgiven".
I think we've hit a point of interpretation.I'm using the word doubt, possibly inappropriately, to cover the grey area between strong believer and strong unbeliever.I am assuming that if you believe in God today and don't this time next year you would be denyed entry to heaven from next year onwards until you believe again.If the area in between was a slow decay (or awakening :D ) to disbelief ie If asked somewhere in the middle your answer would be a completely honest 'I just don't know', somewhere between those 2 points the G-man has to arbitrateWhen I say doubt I mean if asked if God exists your would answer 'I doubt he does' which probably falls in the 'Going to burn for all eternity' category :club:
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I think we've hit a point of interpretation.I'm using the word doubt, possibly inappropriately, to cover the grey area between strong believer and strong unbeliever.I am assuming that if you believe in God today and don't this time next year you would be denyed entry to heaven from next year onwards until you believe again.If the area in between was a slow decay (or awakening :D ) to disbelief ie If asked somewhere in the middle your answer would be a completely honest 'I just don't know', somewhere between those 2 points the G-man has to arbitrateWhen I say doubt I mean if asked if God exists your would answer 'I doubt he does' which probably falls in the 'Going to burn for all eternity' category :club:
Yeah . . . that makes since. God does say it is better to be "hot" or "cold" for him, rather than "luke warm". So your logic is correct the way you described it above. There are definately a lot of "luke warm" christians out there . . . present company included I might add. You are right in that case . . . the "G-Man" will have to decide in that case!!
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