Check-up 1

[DonkSlayer 1]

2/4, both happened early in sessions so no reads.hand 1, table had av. pot of $22DS is in the sb with UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, folds to DS who completes, BB checks.flop Checks to UTG+2, who bets. DS raises to $4. Folds to UTG+2 who calls.turn DS bets $4, UTG+2 calls.River DS checks, likely folding to a bet.Meh on completing vs. raising with JJ, but if I thought my fold equity was zero, is it OK? Call flop and bet/raise river instead of my original line?

[GamblinLeaf 0]

JJ are a value raise for me here, pretty much 100% of the time. I could be convinced otherwise, but I don't think it's that close.A PF raise would also let you represent the ace with a flop bet and might give you a better idea of where you're at. If villain raises, you can more comfortably fold, or peel and check/fold the turn.As played, and without reads, I think a river bet/fold and check/call are close, while check/fold is too weak.Just my two cents.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Why didnt you raise preflop?Were you waiting for an unfavorable flop to start putting your bets in?... seem so.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Why didnt you raise preflop?Were you waiting for an unfavorable flop to start putting your bets in?... seem so.

How many times is a Q/K/A going to flop and I've given each more reason to disrespect my hand? Besides the metagame though, if someone around has a bunch of hands with JJ where they had the opportunity to raise after open-limps, and their results, I'd like to see them...I certainly am willing to change my mind.

[Zach6668 513]

How many times is a Q/K/A going to flop and I've given each more reason to disrespect my hand? Besides the metagame though, if someone around has a bunch of hands with JJ where they had the opportunity to raise after open-limps, and their results, I'd like to see them...I certainly am willing to change my mind.

You definitely have an equity edge preflop. Raise.

[Abbaddabba 0]

How many times is a Q/K/A going to flop and I've given each more reason to disrespect my hand?

Im not sure what you're getting at.You mean didnt raise preflop because you wanted to get someone to fold top pair if an overcard happens to fall?And what does 'metagame' have to do with this hand? If you're looking for figures from someones pokertracker database to compare calling to raising preflop in that situation, you wont get it - they dont exist. Because how well those hands perform depend on how you play postflop, and that's different for everyone.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Im not sure what you're getting at.You mean didnt raise preflop because you wanted to get someone to fold top pair if an overcard happens to fall?And what does 'metagame' have to do with this hand? If you're looking for figures from someones pokertracker database to compare calling to raising preflop in that situation, you wont get it - they dont exist. Because how well those hands perform depend on how you play postflop, and that's different for everyone.

Fair enough, Zach argues the same so I'll take it fwiw.

[GamblinLeaf 0]

Fair enough, Zach argues the same so I'll take it fwiw.

You can also PokerStove JJ and see that it has an outright equity edge vs. as many as 9 random hands. Kinda extreme, but it's there.In fact, against 4 opponents, as in this hand, you actually have an equity edge with pocket pairs down to 55.Not saying I'd always raise 55 from the SB, but these two extremes should make you more comfortable with raising a big hand like JJ.

[akishore 0]

You will take offense to this post, and you should, but you should also keep an open mind and realize that you suck at (EDIT: small stakes limit hold 'em) poker... for now. This hand was absolutely butchered to a horrendous extent, and if this is representative of your normal play (EDIT: at small stakes limit hold 'em), you are almost definitely a losing or break-even player (EDIT: at small stakes limit hold 'em). If your results don't show it, your sample size probably isn't statistically significant.Do yourself a favor and search Amazon for "Small Stakes Hold 'em" by Ed Miller. Purchase it, read it, practice a ton more, rake in the cash monies $$$, enjoy.AseemP.S. This hand really sucks. Every street except the turn was misplayed badly, and possibly the flop if you had a read on UTG+2, but you don't mention one so I'll assume the flop was misplayed too. (I'm not going to bother arguing why each street was misplayed, because a] I wouldn't be able to explain it better than the book, and b] you wouldn't fully understand without having read the book.)EDIT: Haha, this post was half-joking, sorry if the sarcasm didn't break through the Interwebs. But for real, I am just being honest, you severely misplayed this hand. And don't get bent out of shape, we all sucked at one point; I know I did, so don't take offense to the fact that you suck... for now. That last part is key. Buy the book, read it, apply it, and you will be better.

[Zach6668 513]

You will take offense to this post, and you should, but you should also keep an open mind and realize that you suck at poker... for now. This hand was absolutely butchered to a horrendous extent, and if this is representative of your normal play, you are almost definitely a losing or break-even player. If your results don't show it, your sample size probably isn't statistically significant.Do yourself a favor and search Amazon for "Small Stakes Hold 'em" by Ed Miller. Purchase it, read it, practice a ton more, rake in the cash monies $$$, enjoy.AseemP.S. This hand really sucks. Every street except the turn was misplayed badly, and possibly the flop if you had a read on UTG+2, but you don't mention one so I'll assume the flop was misplayed too. (I'm not going to bother arguing why each street was misplayed, because a] I wouldn't be able to explain it better than the book, and b] you wouldn't fully understand without having read the book.)

This was a fun post.DS is a no limit player, IIRC, and I think still relatively new to limit...right?

[GamblinLeaf 0]

You will take offense to this post, and you should, but you should also keep an open mind and realize that you suck at poker... for now. This hand was absolutely butchered to a horrendous extent, and if this is representative of your normal play, you are almost definitely a losing or break-even player. If your results don't show it, your sample size probably isn't statistically significant.Do yourself a favor and search Amazon for "Small Stakes Hold 'em" by Ed Miller. Purchase it, read it, practice a ton more, rake in the cash monies $$$, enjoy.AseemP.S. This hand really sucks. Every street except the turn was misplayed badly, and possibly the flop if you had a read on UTG+2, but you don't mention one so I'll assume the flop was misplayed too. (I'm not going to bother arguing why each street was misplayed, because a] I wouldn't be able to explain it better than the book, and b] you wouldn't fully understand without having read the book.)

Yikes, did you wake up on the wrong side of the Infinite Corridor today, Aseem?

[akishore 0]

Y'all take it too literally. I edited it. =DAseem

[Zach6668 513]

Maybe it's a Baston thing.

[mrdannyg 274]

Y'all take it too literally. I edited it. =DAseem

i thought it was clearly well-intentioned. the nice part about having 6K+ posts, most of them extremely helpful, is that you should get the benefit of the doubt not raising preflop alone is a very big mistake, for several reasons. donkslayer is a solid NL player, and a good learner, so i trust he'll take it the right way when i say not raising there indicates he really needs to read SSHE carefully.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Thanks for the flames and the compliments I didn't think this was so good and it's why I posted it. Can't wait to see if Akishore looked at the other hand. I only play limit right now when the table is superbad and I can be profitable even when I'm the 5th/6th best at the table. I'm going to look into it more when I can start taking shots at 5/10.

[brvheart 1,752]

You will take offense to this post, and you should, but you should also keep an open mind and realize that you suck at (EDIT: small stakes limit hold 'em) poker... for now. This hand was absolutely butchered to a horrendous extent, and if this is representative of your normal play (EDIT: at small stakes limit hold 'em), you are almost definitely a losing or break-even player (EDIT: at small stakes limit hold 'em). If your results don't show it, your sample size probably isn't statistically significant.Do yourself a favor and search Amazon for "Small Stakes Hold 'em" by Ed Miller. Purchase it, read it, practice a ton more, rake in the cash monies $$$, enjoy.AseemP.S. This hand really sucks. Every street except the turn was misplayed badly, and possibly the flop if you had a read on UTG+2, but you don't mention one so I'll assume the flop was misplayed too. (I'm not going to bother arguing why each street was misplayed, because a] I wouldn't be able to explain it better than the book, and b] you wouldn't fully understand without having read the book.)EDIT: Haha, this post was half-joking, sorry if the sarcasm didn't break through the Interwebs. But for real, I am just being honest, you severely misplayed this hand. And don't get bent out of shape, we all sucked at one point; I know I did, so don't take offense to the fact that you suck... for now. That last part is key. Buy the book, read it, apply it, and you will be better.

Aseem, let's say it's you in this situation with JJ. What would you do? I suppose I would raise PF. Bet the flop, if not raised, I would also bet the turn, and river. If I was raised on the flop, I would fold.PF - Raise. (pretty obvious?)F - Bet. (ditto)T - Bet again with only 1 caller?R - Bet again? or check?

[Zach6668 513]

Aseem, let's say it's you in this situation with JJ. What would you do? I suppose I would raise PF. Bet the flop, if not raised, I would also bet the turn, and river. If I was raised on the flop, I would fold.PF - Raise. (pretty obvious?)F - Bet. (ditto)T - Bet again with only 1 caller?R - Bet again? or check?

We don't beat too much on this river if we are called on the turn. The board is very draw light, so I'd expect an ace a ton of the time. I would almost never bet this river, then. I'd check, and depending on reads, call or fold, usually call, unless they are super super passive, because that is a standard way for them to play Ax.

[akishore 0]

Aseem, let's say it's you in this situation with JJ. What would you do? I suppose I would raise PF. Bet the flop, if not raised, I would also bet the turn, and river. If I was raised on the flop, I would fold.PF - Raise. (pretty obvious?)F - Bet. (ditto)T - Bet again with only 1 caller?R - Bet again? or check?

I would raise pf and bet each street and fold to a raise on any street w/out a read on the raiser.Aseem

[brvheart 1,752]

I would raise pf and bet each street and fold to a raise on any street w/out a read on the raiser.Aseem

Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (Real Money), #1,206,676,353Table Garden Grove, 31 Oct 2006 11:09 PM ETSeat 1: Foote31 ($188 in chips)Seat 2: AMAR15 ($166.15 in chips)Seat 3: farmer69 ($150.20 in chips)Seat 5: tarras0 ($28.50 in chips)Seat 6: brvheart ($299.20 in chips)Seat 7: testbot7 ($89 in chips)Seat 8: All-in-Joe81 ($77.50 in chips)Seat 9: KenyCola ($140 in chips)Seat 10: xxx bailey ($494 in chips)ANTES/BLINDSFoote31 posts blind ($1), AMAR15 posts blind ($2).Dealt to brvheart [Q,Q]PRE-FLOPfarmer69 folds, tarras0 calls $2, brvheart bets $4, testbot7 folds, All-in-Joe81 folds, KenyCola folds, xxx bailey calls $4, Foote31 folds, AMAR15 calls $2, tarras0 calls $2.FLOP [board cards 10S,7D,AD ]AMAR15 checks, tarras0 checks, brvheart bets $2, xxx bailey calls $2, AMAR15 calls $2, tarras0 bets $4, brvheart folds, xxx bailey calls $2, AMAR15 calls $2.TURN [board cards 10S,7D,AD,3C ]AMAR15 checks, tarras0 bets $4, xxx bailey folds, AMAR15 calls $4.RIVER [board cards 10S,7D,AD,3C,4S ]AMAR15 checks, tarras0 bets $4, AMAR15 calls $4.SHOWDOWNtarras0 shows [ KD,2D ]AMAR15 shows [ 7C,5D ]I put your advice in action, but I don't know if I played it correctly... especially considering the outcome.

[akishore 0]

Who cares about the outcome? You played it completely right.If you like putting in much money when drawing to two outs at best (one out if you don't have the Qd) when you're behind, then you should call down.Really, ignore results. It is so hard to fathom that even 10,000 hands is pretty short run, much less 1000, 100, 10 or in this case 1. Once you can come to ease with this fact, it's easier.Aseem

[brvheart 1,752]

Who cares about the outcome? You played it completely right.If you like putting in much money when drawing to two outs at best (one out if you don't have the Qd) when you're behind, then you should call down.Really, ignore results. It is so hard to fathom that even 10,000 hands is pretty short run, much less 1000, 100, 10 or in this case 1. Once you can come to ease with this fact, it's easier.Aseem

will do... thanks.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Aseem

How long has this guy been posting here, again?

[CoranMoran 0]

I would raise pf and bet each street and fold to a raise on any street w/out a read on the raiser.Aseem

Why are we ever betting this river?Fold Equity?Nope.No better hand that has called us this far will fold to a blank on the river.Value?Hardly.That guy with a T just isn't calling a PFR the whole way with an Ace on board often enough to make the bet profitable.You have to check the river.--CM

[akishore 0]

Why are we ever betting this river?...You have to check the river.--CM

It's most definitely a value bet.Check/calling is terrible because most opponents will check behind most hands that you beat but bet the hands that you don't, so that's very -EV.check/folding is also bad because while you save money when you're beat, you lose value when you're not because your opponent again checks behind hands that you beat.bet/folding is best because you get the value when you're ahead and you put in the same one bet the times you are beat usually. if they raise it is an easy fold because you have a marginal hand, and any hand that is good enough to raise that river has you crushed. and to everyone that is afraid of getting bluff raised off the best hand, that really is a very rare occurence, so don't be paranoid... only worry about this if you've seen it done.

That guy with a T just isn't calling a PFR the whole way with an Ace on board often enough to make the bet profitable.

lol, come on, you know this isn't true. you know there are tons of players, esp at 2/4, that will call down there with worse than a 10, like a mid pocket pair, much less a 10.Aseem

[CoranMoran 0]

Check/calling is terrible because most opponents will check behind most hands that you beat but bet the hands that you don't, so that's very -EV.

You must know that this is over-simplified.This statement leaves out an important conecept of the check-call play.Villain is certainly capable of bluffing a missed draw if we check the river.Having any 2 face-cards in this situation is definitely possible for Villain.We need to compare the chances of him bluffing after our check to the chances of him calling with a lesser hand.

lol, come on, you know this isn't true. you know there are tons of players, esp at 2/4, that will call down there with worse than a 10, like a mid pocket pair, much less a 10.

I normally would totally agree.But not in this example.I love to value bet.And I love value betting my 2nd rate hands when I know Villain will call down with less.Hypothetically, if I raised preflop and connected with 2nd pair, I would almost always value bet it the whole way- Because opponents at this level tend not to believe our continuation bets and, as you said, love to make loose calls.But our 2nd pair in this particular hand is different.In my view, I believe the difference resides with our check-raise on the flop.If we had simply led out on the flop and turn and had been called, I would likely value bet my Jacks again on the river.But, in my opinion, our check-raise on the flop screams that we are serious and that we can beat the T.And i can't imagine Villain missing that message.And after this move, I think Villain will call down much less often.Note:If Villain was a calling station, I would certainly adjust my play.And if Hero had shown himself to be a maniac, then I would bet out.My suggestions are based on "normal" reads of both players at this level.Conclusion:Because I view a river bet as very thin and rarely gains, I believe it is more profitable to give Villain a chance to spew a bluff at the river.Our Jacks also have showdown value.I like to make my bet-fold plays only when my hand does not have showdown value.--CM