Evidence Of Life After Death

[zzz 0]

So you are a nihilist and believe that truth does not matter at all, but rather people should believe anything that makes them more happy, no matter how false.At least youre willing to admit it. Also, I should hardly need to point out that argument by popularity is a horrifically bad way to determine the truth if there are any other methods at all available.

As seen by mine and your arguements, truth is subjective. Who says it's false? Science? lol. Science isn't the answer to everything.It is the argument that if 8 million people say they had this experience and that it was real to them then I would have to be an extremely non-trusting person not to believe them.

i see. so if what large amounts of people claim to have experienced is evidence to you, then i presume you simultaniously believe every major religion and cult in the world, as well as UFO's, bigfoot etc? there is no difference between those things and claims of NDE's.anyway i found a little info on this poll you keep harping on - it was taken in 1992 when NDE's were getting a lot of press and before a lot of the modern scienctific studies on the subject with negative results were conducted. the question apparently did not strictly specify actual death experiences where vitals ceased and restarted but allowed for close call (life-threatening situation etc) out-of-body experiences. i was unable to find the total number surveyed, but 5% responded positive. your website presumably is extrapolating that 5% into 8 million somehow, and spinning the number to represent 8 million actual death experiences, which it didn't.as long as you are illogically believing something why stop there? why not convince yourself there are a bunch of virgins waiting for you in the afterlife?...oh, that's been done? sorry.

The number came from the unbiased Wilkepedia. I am "illogically" believing it according to you. Again, only a moron holds pessimistic views especially big ones like there is no after life eventhough I can't prove it.

Wrong.

...Care to elaborate?

[Sluggo 0]

You believe life will end without total proof. I believe I will be happy forever without total proof. Only an idiot would choose your belief.

Consider this:You believe Jesus won't mail me $1,000,000. I believe Jesus will mail me $1,000,000. Only an idiot would choose your belief.See the logical fallacy?

As seen by mine and your arguements, truth is subjective.

Truth is not subjective. Either a statement is true or it is false.

Again, only a moron holds pessimistic views especially big ones like there is no after life eventhough I can't prove it.

You are a moron then. There are more optimistic beliefs than the ones you hold.

[crowTrobot 2]

The number came from the unbiased Wilkepedia

wikipedia is not exactly a peer-reviewed publication lol. anyone who wants to can enter "facts" and they frequently end up not being double checked. in this case that number is just someone's unscientific extrapolation from a 14-year-old ambiguous poll where 5% of those surveyed claimed NDEs, and none of the claims were medically verified.

It is the argument that if 8 million people say they had this experience and that it was real to them then I would have to be an extremely non-trusting person not to believe them.

would it be extremely non-trusting to not believe hundreds of millions of islamists? if not, please explain the difference.

[Canada 0]

As seen by mine and your arguements, truth is subjective. Who says it's false? Science? lol. Science isn't the answer to everything.

I love the way you make it sound like science is a cult or religion in its own right with elite membership.You do realise science is essentially the search for explanations ie the truth?You don't have to have any preconceived beliefs or assumptions. All you need to do is to seek an answer using all the FACTS & EVIDENCE and the activity you are undertaking is a scientific experiment.So what you are saying is that 'to search for the truth is not the way to find it.' :icon_doh:What I like is that you start your arguments using science thus

No evidence of brain activity. Strong evidence showing no brain activity whatsoever. No blood flowing through brain, no brain stem function, no brain function found. All 3 scientific tests used to measure brain activity came out negative.This case has nothing to do with "backill" of information. She described things in the operating room when she was brain dead that were accurate that she otherwise couldn't have known.

and yet when your evidence gets challenged on its authenticity or an alternative explanation is put forward that also fits with you evidence you get all bitchy and state that 'science doesn't answer evertything'lol, you can't have it both ways.If NDE's are what you are conjecturing you will need some irrefutable evidence. You started of well but simply showed you either don't have said evidence or that you don't have the conviction needed to find it.The best thing is that if you can come up with it, your opposition in this thread would have to concede.

[Canada 0]

The facts are nobody knows anything for sure. "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing.”-Socrates.Stick to the facts please? Saying you have no soul, you are not eternal, life ceases to exist after physical death, are merely pessimistic views on the unknown. When choosing pessimistic views over optimistic ones, you are also choosing stupidity and ignorance.

Would you mind spelling out what is pessimistic about life having an end.If we are eternal in that we are concious forever in one form or another this makes absolutely everything we do in this world and 'the next' pointless beyond belief

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I don't get it.So do you really believe that when you die, your soul physically comes out of your body. It has eyes and can look around and create memories inside of your real body (yes, it has the ability to alter neural connections within your brain while standing outside of it and from a distance). So this soul, instead of flapping it's wings and going up to heaven, decided to stick around and watch the operation a bit. Do you really think that heaven is a physical place that the soul has to go to? Do you think that it is of this plane of existence so the soul, upon exiting the body, literally exits the body and goes toward heaven? You think the soul literally walks out of a body, like in the movies, and can choose to stand around and watch people?Or could it possibly be the fact that the person, while unconscious, was able to hear certain things and pieced those things together in an unconscious state to form a memory. She heard a drilling noise, which sounded exactly like a dentist's drill, and thought she remembered a dentist like tool, or an electrical toothbrush or whatever. And she heard what people were saying and was somehow able to piece together in her dreamlike state the events that were taking place. Also, she added her grandmother and a vortex or something pulling her up into heaven. But my dreams are weird too, so I don't blame her.

[zzz 0]

You are a moron then. There are more optimistic beliefs than the ones you hold.

Haha, don't think so. I believe I am eternal--have no beginning and no end. I believe I chose to come to Earth to teach and learn about love. I believe after death I can continue to choose to experience whatever I want. What view is more optimistic then that?

Would you mind spelling out what is pessimistic about life having an end.If we are eternal in that we are concious forever in one form or another this makes absolutely everything we do in this world and 'the next' pointless beyond belief

I only know by experience. Experience tells me that believing in no afterlife makes me unhappy. Believing in an afterlife makes me happy. It would be really stupid of me to believe in something that makes me unhappy.

I don't get it.So do you really believe that when you die, your soul physically comes out of your body. It has eyes and can look around and create memories inside of your real body (yes, it has the ability to alter neural connections within your brain while standing outside of it and from a distance). So this soul, instead of flapping it's wings and going up to heaven, decided to stick around and watch the operation a bit. Do you really think that heaven is a physical place that the soul has to go to? Do you think that it is of this plane of existence so the soul, upon exiting the body, literally exits the body and goes toward heaven? You think the soul literally walks out of a body, like in the movies, and can choose to stand around and watch people?Or could it possibly be the fact that the person, while unconscious, was able to hear certain things and pieced those things together in an unconscious state to form a memory. She heard a drilling noise, which sounded exactly like a dentist's drill, and thought she remembered a dentist like tool, or an electrical toothbrush or whatever. And she heard what people were saying and was somehow able to piece together in her dreamlike state the events that were taking place. Also, she added her grandmother and a vortex or something pulling her up into heaven. But my dreams are weird too, so I don't blame her.

Lol. Physically, no. Yes I believe all life has a non-physical "soul" and hangs out in another dimension.It has been documented that she could not physically hear or see anything. All three brain tests were negative for brain function. Even hallucinations would have registered.

[Loismustdie 0]

Would you mind spelling out what is pessimistic about life having an end.If we are eternal in that we are concious forever in one form or another this makes absolutely everything we do in this world and 'the next' pointless beyond belief

That's actually the most backwards thing I have read in this thread- if we are to live forever in another form, with choices as to how that forever will be, then this life and what we do in it is of the utmost importance. Don't get me wrong, ZZZ makes me look like genius with his arguments, and I won't even begin to try and answer questions past what God has told me in the bible, which is precisely what ZZZ is doing.

[Canada 0]

That's actually the most backwards thing I have read in this thread- if we are to live forever in another form, with choices as to how that forever will be, then this life and what we do in it is of the utmost importance. Don't get me wrong, ZZZ makes me look like genius with his arguments, and I won't even begin to try and answer questions past what God has told me in the bible, which is precisely what ZZZ is doing.

That is the Christian spin on things. EDIT: Let me spell that out a little more. The Christian spin is that if you are good you are rewarded if you are bad you are punished. That is neither optomistic nor pessimistic, for want of a better word it is realisticzzz's whole argument is that you must believe in something optomistic regarding an afterlife to make you happy.You recently had some 'debate' with him where he said it was stupid to believe in a God that punishes you when you can believe in one that doesn't. Here is the link to the beginningThe only way belief his can maintain his optomism is if eternal life and hapiness is assured, which makes this life pointless.

[WrongWay 0]

ZZZ,Has there ever been a time in your life when you did not believe in an afterlife? If so, where you unhappy?If not, then how can you know that you would be unhappy.To me, you seem very much like a person that has been brainwashed into fearing truth. You must believe in an afterlife, or you will be miserable.In short, it is you that lives your life in fear.... You fear losing your belief in a lie, because if you allow yourself to see the lie for what it is, you will be miserable.I for one, am not miserable, do not believe in an afterlife, and do not live every day in fear that I'll lose my belief in a lie. I am able to look at a scientific study of afterlife, and the conclusion that it is not real, without any discomfort.

[Loismustdie 0]

That is the Christian spin on things. EDIT: Let me spell that out a little more. The Christian spin is that if you are good you are rewarded if you are bad you are punished. That is neither optomistic nor pessimistic, for want of a better word it is realisticzzz's whole argument is that you must believe in something optomistic regarding an afterlife to make you happy.You recently had some 'debate' with him where he said it was stupid to believe in a God that punishes you when you can believe in one that doesn't. Here is the link to the beginningThe only way belief his can maintain his optomism is if eternal life and hapiness is assured, which makes this life pointless.

Ahh.. mind you he is on my ignore list, because you are absolutely correct- his way would make this life absolutely pointless.

[WrongWay 0]

So do you really believe that when you die, your soul physically comes out of your body. It has eyes and can look around and create memories inside of your real body (yes, it has the ability to alter neural connections within your brain while standing outside of it and from a distance). So this soul, instead of flapping it's wings and going up to heaven, decided to stick around and watch the operation a bit.

I can't speak for zzz, but I've had similar conversations with many "afterlife"ers. What I've heard is that they view the brain as a sort of radio for the soul. Our brain is not the repository for consciousness, but the receiver of it. That when we choose to be born, we choose to trap our consciousness within our brain, but when we die it is untrapped and is able to experience the universe without aide of the human body.So, these visions are not "stored" in our brains as neural connectors, but rather stored in our consciousness, which for a time comes "unstuck" from our bodies.These people tend not to like questions on why brain damage can significantly alter our personalities. Things like inability to store new memories are okay, because our consciousness is stuck in our body and the damage means the consciousness is unable to experience. But, changes to the personality by brain damage are more difficult since it is their ultimate opinion that personality is independant of the brain.Oddly, many of these "afterlife"ers have a hard time explaining why gorillas don't have afterlife, so their brain is just a computer, but humans do have afterlife, so their brains are more like a radio for to the soul.... yet human brains and gorilla brains are essentially identicle except for size.... Where in the human brain is the receiver of the soul? Where in the gorilla brain has this receiver of the soul been replaced with a bio-electro-chemical computer?

[Loismustdie 0]

ZZZ,Has there ever been a time in your life when you did not believe in an afterlife? If so, where you unhappy?If not, then how can you know that you would be unhappy.To me, you seem very much like a person that has been brainwashed into fearing truth. You must believe in an afterlife, or you will be miserable.In short, it is you that lives your life in fear.... You fear losing your belief in a lie, because if you allow yourself to see the lie for what it is, you will be miserable.I for one, am not miserable, do not believe in an afterlife, and do not live every day in fear that I'll lose my belief in a lie. I am able to look at a scientific study of afterlife, and the conclusion that it is not real, without any discomfort.

Science can't disprove an afterlife, any more than I can prove it. Call me the day you are dying though, let's see how you feel about it then.

[zzz 0]

That is the Christian spin on things. EDIT: Let me spell that out a little more. The Christian spin is that if you are good you are rewarded if you are bad you are punished. That is neither optomistic nor pessimistic, for want of a better word it is realisticzzz's whole argument is that you must believe in something optomistic regarding an afterlife to make you happy.You recently had some 'debate' with him where he said it was stupid to believe in a God that punishes you when you can believe in one that doesn't. Here is the link to the beginningThe only way belief his can maintain his optomism is if eternal life and hapiness is assured, which makes this life pointless.

That is not true. True optimists believe nothing is pointless. I believe for whatever reason I choose to come to the physical realm. I strongly believe there is a point to this life, however I don't know exactly what it is.

[WrongWay 0]

Science can't disprove an afterlife, any more than I can prove it. Call me the day you are dying though, let's see how you feel about it then.

Science can't disprove anything. You can't disprove the Invisable Pink Unicorn created the universe. Do you believe it since it can't be disproven?What science can prove is that consciousness is the result of brain activity. We can alter human memory and personality. We can alter preceptions. We can measure when a memory is triggered. We can trigger specific memories. We can trigger specific emotions. We have very solid understding of how the human brain works and how it manifests its workings as consciouness.And there is no room within that understanding for a possibility of that consciousness existing outside the brain.In short, I can't disprove that flying monkeys are not domiciled within my rectum, but I'm not expecting them to come flying out anytime soon.

[zzz 0]

Oddly, many of these "afterlife"ers have a hard time explaining why gorillas don't have afterlife, so their brain is just a computer, but humans do have afterlife, so their brains are more like a radio for to the soul.... yet human brains and gorilla brains are essentially identicle except for size.... Where in the human brain is the receiver of the soul? Where in the gorilla brain has this receiver of the soul been replaced with a bio-electro-chemical computer?

Many "afterlife"ers actually believe all living things have "a soul".

[WrongWay 0]

That is not true. True optimists believe nothing is pointless. I believe for whatever reason I choose to come to the physical realm. I strongly believe there is a point to this life, however I don't know exactly what it is.

So why not just choose a purpose and choose to believe that purpose. Personally, I think your purpose should be to make as much money as possible and then send it to me.

Many "afterlife"ers actually believe all living things have "a soul".

I choose to believe this is false. I'd be miserable if I were to accept this since it no longer places me (as a human) on a pedistal above all other life forms.You must be really miserable if you believe you are just another living thing.A true optimist believes humans are the only life forms with a soul. You must be ignorant and stupid to accept that human life is not special. You are ignorant and stupid if you do not take the optimistic opinion that human life is superior to all other life in that only we have a soul.

[zzz 0]

ZZZ,Has there ever been a time in your life when you did not believe in an afterlife? If so, where you unhappy?If not, then how can you know that you would be unhappy.To me, you seem very much like a person that has been brainwashed into fearing truth. You must believe in an afterlife, or you will be miserable.In short, it is you that lives your life in fear.... You fear losing your belief in a lie, because if you allow yourself to see the lie for what it is, you will be miserable.I for one, am not miserable, do not believe in an afterlife, and do not live every day in fear that I'll lose my belief in a lie. I am able to look at a scientific study of afterlife, and the conclusion that it is not real, without any discomfort.

Yes.Yes. I was scared shitless. With my current beliefs I'm no longer scared and I am a much happier person. You really believe(all else being equal) you are just as happy or happier with an extremely pessimistic view on the unknown of what happens after physical death?

[Canada 0]

I strongly believe there is a point to this life, however I don't know exactly what it is.

If we all chose to be here it implies free will.Free will would mean that your purpose for being here is know only to you.If you came here for a reason and forgot to write it down to remind yourself, well then your life is pointless.I mean nobody else can tell you what your purpose is because we are all here for different reasons. (That free will thing)Maybe you should just top yourself and go back to find out what your purpose was?Oh dear, did I just destroy your belief system with a small dose of common sense.I just hate it when people come up with beliefs that sound all 'mystical and deep' yet they fail at the slightest inspection

[mrdannyg 274]

Science can't disprove an afterlife, any more than I can prove it. Call me the day you are dying though, let's see how you feel about it then.

i'll sure hope there is one, but if i'm a logical person, i'll receive i still have no valid reason for there to be one.this is very much like zzz's optimism argument, which someone (sluggo) compared to believing jesus would send me a million dollars.right now, you don't believe jesus will send you a million dollars. quit your job tomorrow though, and tell me how you'd feel if he did.sorry to argue the same thing in two threads.

[WrongWay 0]

Yes.Yes. I was scared shitless.

Scared shitless of what????? Of not even knowing you're dead. I don't seem to remember being miserable before I as bron. I'm not scared of being miserable when I don't exist.All else being equal, yes, I do think I'm happier having my mind free of superstition and mythology than I'd be having to ignore so much evidence that does not fit my flawed world view.Cognative Dissonance: Discomfort of having opposing opinions, or having an opinion that is not supported by the data. That is a discomfort that I do not have to experience. And I'm happier for it.

[mrdannyg 274]

Yes.Yes. I was scared shitless. With my current beliefs I'm no longer scared and I am a much happier person. You really believe(all else being equal) you are just as happy or happier with an extremely pessimistic view on the unknown of what happens after physical death?

this is simply pascal's wager.the problem is two things:- if your views are motivated by the happiness they cause, it is not 'true belief,' and surely an omniscient god would know this, and treat it as such- i can't choose to alter my belief system. frankly, i'm pretty certain there is nothing after this life, just like you are pretty certain in the opposite. i'm not scared, because its a 'fact' of life, and i treat it as such.i'd be scared if science led me to believe that afterlife could potentially see me in some burning hell, and my soul constantly enduring agonizing pain. but i'm not scared of non-existance, i just...won't exist.i really don't think an uncertain view of some holy soul in my body escaping to some super-happy alternate dimension when i die would make me a happier person. hell, that'd make me scared, knowing i'd lived part of my life making that soul go to heaven, and may have wasted it since that heaven might not exist, when i could've been living for my current life.

[zzz 0]

I choose to believe this is false. I'd be miserable if I were to accept this since it no longer places me (as a human) on a pedistal above all other life forms.You must be really miserable if you believe you are just another living thing.A true optimist believes humans are the only life forms with a soul. You must be ignorant and stupid to accept that human life is not special. You are ignorant and stupid if you do not take the optimistic opinion that human life is superior to all other life in that only we have a soul.

"All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." - Albert EinsteinIt has been my experience that thinking I'm superior than (fill in blank) has resulted in the feeling of unhappiness. If I'm superior than something then that would most likely mean I'm inferior than something else. It has been my experience that viewing all life as equals, it has resulted in the feeling of greater happiness than the superiority/egotistical view.

If we all chose to be here it implies free will.Free will would mean that your purpose for being here is know only to you.If you came here for a reason and forgot to write it down to remind yourself, well then your life is pointless.I mean nobody else can tell you what your purpose is because we are all here for different reasons. (That free will thing)Maybe you should just top yourself and go back to find out what your purpose was?Oh dear, did I just destroy your belief system with a small dose of common sense.I just hate it when people come up with beliefs that sound all 'mystical and deep' yet they fail at the slightest inspection

I don't KNOW exactly what my purpose here is. It is my BELIEF that the ultimate purpose for me and everyone is to learn about the importance of positive thinking through a physical realm and to have fun.

Scared shitless of what????? Of not even knowing you're dead. I don't seem to remember being miserable before I as bron. I'm not scared of being miserable when I don't exist.All else being equal, yes, I do think I'm happier having my mind free of superstition and mythology than I'd be having to ignore so much evidence that does not fit my flawed world view.Cognative Dissonance: Discomfort of having opposing opinions, or having an opinion that is not supported by the data. That is a discomfort that I do not have to experience. And I'm happier for it.

I am much happier for believing in living forever than believing after I'm physically dead I cease to exist. I think you are only fooling yourself by believing otherwise.My view is supported by millions of people whose reality is a result of their experience of consciousness outside of an unconscious body. Who are you to say their reality isn't "real"?

[zzz 0]

this is simply pascal's wager.the problem is two things:- if your views are motivated by the happiness they cause, it is not 'true belief,' and surely an omniscient god would know this, and treat it as such- i can't choose to alter my belief system . frankly, i'm pretty certain there is nothing after this life, just like you are pretty certain in the opposite. i'm not scared, because its a 'fact' of life, and i treat it as such.i'd be scared if science led me to believe that afterlife could potentially see me in some burning hell, and my soul constantly enduring agonizing pain. but i'm not scared of non-existance, i just...won't exist.i really don't think an uncertain view of some holy soul in my body escaping to some super-happy alternate dimension when i die would make me a happier person. hell, that'd make me scared, knowing i'd lived part of my life making that soul go to heaven, and may have wasted it since that heaven might not exist, when i could've been living for my current life.

No, there is no problem. - I don't believe in a judging god so I don't have to worry about what god thinks. - Of course you can. That is the point of having beliefs. They can never be proven wrong unless you actually experience something different. You are "pretty certain" there is no life after death, but you can't possible know for sure without actually experiencing non-existance. Therefore, it is simply a more pessimistic belief than believing you live on forever."All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." - Albert Einstein

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Lol. Physically, no. Yes I believe all life has a non-physical "soul" and hangs out in another dimension.It has been documented that she could not physically hear or see anything. All three brain tests were negative for brain function. Even hallucinations would have registered.

Okay, so you believe that the soul is non physical and hangs out in another dimension. So, how does having a soul then explain how she was able to hear and see things in this dimension when she was "dead?" That was my point. In order for near death experiences to be evidence for a soul, it would have to imply that a soul is a physical thing that comes out of the body and stands around listening and observing before it goes back into the body when we are resuscitated.If the soul is rather an intangible thing that exists in another heavenly dimension, then it would not know about what was happening in the operating room.