Playing against bad players

[jayboogie 0]

Ok, I've recently gotten pretty frustrated losing my money against very bad players that will play any hand, call down any bet with bottom or middle pair. Now, I think it's just been a string of bad luck lately, but I'm starting to think maybe it's a leak in my game. A few bad players at a table are always welcome, but how do you play against a table with 7 or 8 bad players that don't know what they're doing. What strategy do you use against people that will play any hand? This is for low limit 5/10.For instance, one hand I had pocket Q's. I re-raised and it got capped with 5 players in the hand. flop comes 2 5 6, I get it checked to me and I bet of course, I get called by everyone. turn comes a 9, I bet again, everybody calls. River comes a 2. At this point, I just know I'm beat, so I check it and sure enough 1 player flips over 6-8 off suit, another player A-5, another player K-2 and another player 4-2. After seeing this, I was just shocked and bad luck just seemed to continue the rest of the session. I'd flop top 2 pairs, get somebody betting into me and they'd river a set. I don't even know what it is, I think I've just not been getting the cards. What's weird is playing 2/5, I don't get beats this bad as here. How do you play against people that don't know how to play? Like, a lot of these guys don't even make an effort to play, they just gamble every hand. So, you really don't know whether they hit or miss their cards since they'll bet out with top pair, middle pair, bottom pair or A high.

[Guest]

jay, your situation described is exactly the same as mine, even down to the 5/10 limit. theres not much you can do at a table like that. here are some suggestions that i hope will help me too.i think i'm going to try not to play a table with as crazy a flop average, because the more people in each hand, the less your chances are of winning with a good preflop hand. if i am playing a loose loose table, and there is constantly a ton of money in the pot, i would call my flush draws and open ended straight draws to the river, calculating the pot odds, and try to score a massive pot... but i need to make sure i have a really good flush draw [and not go on tilt playing every two cards suited], and not a sucker straight draw.your situation with the queens, and your table situation, i think i would have just called, because as you found out, these players are playing 2 4, K 2, and any ace, and are all in the hand pre-flop capped. then with that 5-10 extra you saved by just calling preflop, maybe try a check raise on the flop. yeah, seeing how these players play, i dont know... lately i have been getting sucked out on on the river and its ridiculous.

[jayboogie 0]

I think I did misplay a couple hands here and there which led to me just not having a good session overall. With the queens, I was on the button and last to act, I would have check raised had I been in early position, but I was last to act with it being checked to me, so I felt I had the best hand and bet out. I guess sometimes the right play costs you a lotta money. Also, I think since I'm ahead on the flop, I should be putting as much in the pot, even though most of the time I will get sucked out, I should still jam that pot up when I'm ahead. It really just started ticking me off when I started folding hands and then hitting them on the turn and river. It made me want to start trying to chase these cards, but I maintained the self control not to. I've found the strategy of drawing to the nut flush/straight to be probably the most profitable in loose games, but in order to do this, your cards need to be hitting. High pockets or AK never seems to really holdup well against a table of 7 or 8 callers pre-flop. I just find it impossible to combat luck against these players, I keep waiting on getting the big payoff session as it should happen in games like this, but lately I've just had losing session after losing session. It really gets frustrating when you keep getting hands that you want cracked time and time again. I guess it's difficult to play against fish sometimes just because they'll school together and make almost every card that comes on the turn and river a card that will help them. It's strange but even online, the hands that get played aren't as bad as in these brick&mortar games. The majority of the players treat the game like bingo. I just think variance is relied on a whole lot more when you are playing against a table full of fish. WIthout the cards, you just can't win in these games.

[HoldemPokerPlyr 0]

Hey everyone I'm new to the forum.Playing against bad players is tough. Especially if you are a player who likes to play high cards. You finally get the hand you want AQs and the highest card on the board is a Q. There are no draws of any sort and you get beat by someone with two pair 6's and 4's. It's annoying as hell but you have to deal with it. Don't let it bother you and don't let it put you on a TILT. What I like to do sometimes is see how the other players play. If they like to play alot of hands, you try to play alot of hands too. You have to adjust a bit without being bad like them. You have to understand that they are probably going to call alot. It's going to be hard to bluff a bad player too. If they check it probably means they have nothing because a bad player doesn't know what a check-raise is.When you play bad players , just try to adjust yourself a bit. Try to play a few more hands to keep your game steady and than when you get the hands you like play them. Don't be afraid of bad players because the way they play, they will be the chip leader to the short stack in a matter of a few hands.-HoldemPokerPlyr

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

Hmmm... big pot, last to act.You know, if nobody bet out in front of you and you were last to act with such a hand, it might be a reasonable play to go ahead and check yourself and see the turn. Sure, an A or K would freeze you out, but as you noted the pot was large so any sort of A or K hand would probably call due to the massive pot odds (they would be what, something like 20-1 on the flop with this kind of action?). If you played it that way, you could see the turn, muck it if the wrong card comes, or if it's checked to you around back again, then bet out so that those players would only have worse odds to chase the river (10-1? I don't play a lot of limit). Or if nothing concerning to you comes of on the turn but it's bet to you, then reraise to drive the odds even lower. NO, you say! I could never check the flop with this sort of hand! Well, according to the theory of poker, they are getting something like 20-1 odds on that call. Since they're getting such massive odds, they are all pretty much making the correct play by calling (even a hand that's only 5% to win, because 5% is a 19-1 chance to win it). They don't even know it.One of my most costly errors is thinking that these amounts matter to people. A preflop raise might feel like doubling the blind to you, but to some people it's just like they were playing at a slightly higher limit for the hand. They would call a $10 blind in a bigger game with the cards, why not call a $10 bet in this game with them as well?Final note. These people are playing weak, unimaginative poker. You will more than likely be able to know what they have by the way they bet. If they bet, they like it. If they call, they're drawing. If they put in a third raise, they have something big. Let this guide you. Make sure they're calling when you're in the lead. If the cards fall better for them, and you know they fell for them, let the hand go and save what you can. Don't let that discourage you from betting when you're in the lead, but be prepared to let it go.I hope my analysis is helpful.

[Dick Danger 0]

I live in Montana, here there's a law that limits the pot size to $300.00. The place where I play the most has a single $5 blind with 6-8 people seeing the flop. :shock: Once I figured out that AA,KK,&QQ meant nothing unles I made set I started to do better. My starting hands have changed big time for this game. :wink:

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

The game you describe would be nuts.On the plus side, playing in a game like that can really boost your post-flop play abilities! Most people neglect these abilities, figuring that as long as you take good cards and hit a flop you like, then you're gonna win.

[jayboogie 0]

well I was ahead the whole time until the river, so I made the right play jamming that pot up. I just got outdrawn at the end. I checked on the river when I knew I was beat, got to at least see what they were playing and I don't feel that was the right pot odds to call for them. How many outs are each of these players chasing??? They could easily be drawing dead already. One person that had some reasoning would be the one chasing the gutshot straight since it could possibly be the best hand, but everybody else was calling with just 1 pair on the board with a capped raise pre-flop. You gotta understand these are just bad players that gamble and play every hand and only fold when there's absolutely no chance of winning, if there's 1 or 2 outs left, they'll chase to the end.Actually just because they have a 19:1 pot odds to make the call doesn't make it the right call given the situation. First of all, What are these players drawing to? With a board of 2 5 6 rainbow, 1 guy has a pair of 5's, another 6's, another 2's and another 2's with a gutshot straight. Even if they hit their card, they could still lose. Just because pot odds are correct to call, doesn't make it correct to call given the situation. You can't just always use pot odds to figure out whether you should call, the pot odds should favour you by far and the situation should as well. Also, I gotta mention that this was one of the first hands I played at the table, so I didn't know what these people played. When I had the flop checked to me, I knew my queens were ahead, because anyone with rockets or kings would have bet out. The thing against playing against these people are you can't put them on any specific cards because they'll gamble with anything and bet out whether they hit top pair or middle pair, so when they hit a set on the flop, you can't tell either. I was just getting unlucky and getting top 2 pair on the flop beaten by a set. When I would flop a set, somebody would river a straight on me. The cards just fell that way and I was just helpless and extremely frustrated.

[Smasharoo 0]

Pardon me for being blunt for a minute, but ahem:Stop the pointless inane whining for the love of god. Are you people serious? You're complaining because you're playing at tables full of bad players?? Get this through your skulls right now:THE ONLY REASON YOU MAKE MONEY AT POKER AT ALL IS BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES. THE MORE MISTAKES THEY MAKE THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE. THE MORE PEOPLE MAKING MISTAKES IN A GAME THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE FROM THAT GAMEGot it?Bad beats like this DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT lose you money long term. They MAKE you money long term. Firstly, you should have bet that river, secondly you should have been trembling with greed almost unable to restrain yourself from jumping up and cheering when they turned that cheese over. Can't you see it? Playing with these people is like rolling a 10 sided die where you lose a dollar if it's 1-9 but you win 20 dollars when it's a ten. Would you decide you didn't want to play that game because you lose most of the time? Would you prefer to play a game where you flip a coin and win 54 cetns if it's heads but lose 50 cents if it's tails?If you would you're a fool. You must understand poker is about winning MONEY not winning pots. Winning 1 pot for 35 big bets in 25 hands is BETTER than winning 10 pots for 3 big bets each. If you can't undesrstand that concept, well, maybe poker's just not your game. I know, maybe you should have a speling contest...

[jayboogie 0]

Pardon me for being blunt for a minute, but ahem:Stop the pointless inane whining for the love of god. Are you people serious?  You're complaining because you're playing at tables full of bad players??  Get this  through your skulls right now:THE ONLY REASON YOU MAKE MONEY AT POKER AT ALL IS BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES.  THE MORE MISTAKES THEY MAKE THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE.  THE MORE PEOPLE MAKING MISTAKES IN A GAME THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE FROM THAT GAMEGot it?Bad beats like this DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT lose you money long term.  They MAKE you money long term.  Firstly, you should have bet that river, secondly you should have been trembling with greed almost unable to restrain yourself from jumping up and cheering when they turned that cheese over.  Can't you see it?  Playing with these people is like rolling a 10 sided die where you lose a dollar if it's 1-9 but you win 20 dollars when it's a ten.  Would you decide you didn't want to play that game because you lose most of the time?  Would you prefer to play a game where you flip a coin and win 54 cetns if it's heads but lose 50 cents if it's tails?If you would you're a fool.  You must understand poker is about winning MONEY not winning pots.  Winning 1 pot for 35 big bets in 25 hands  is BETTER than winning 10 pots for 3 big bets each.  If you can't undesrstand that concept, well, maybe poker's just not your game.  I know, maybe you should have a speling contest...

OK, look first of all I'm not sure where I was complaining in my post, but anyways the reason why I posted this was because I've had several losing sessions in a row and I'm trying to look for alternative solutions as to why it's happening as opposed to dumb luck. Of course I welcome bad play and that's why you can make money in poker in the first place.Why should I bet the river when I know I'm beat? That's just like throwing away 2 big bets because I would have been check raised had I bet out. Those players were expecting me to bet out which is why it was checked to me on the river when they hit their miracle card. The point of my original post is I've been losing a lot of sessions getting sucked out by horrible players that treat the game like bingo and I was asking for advice more than anything and trying to see if I was making any mistakes in how I was playing. I'm a student of the game and always trying to get better, so I welcome any criticism. Now, I was shocked when I saw them play these hands, but I wasn't particularly upset until it happened a couple more times in the following hands. I lost 5 or 6 pots like this and was down $200 in less than an hr, now I know the books say you should welcome people outdrawing you, but tell me you wouldn't be the least bit ticked off when it happens to you every pot you play.

[jogsxyz 0]

THE ONLY REASON YOU MAKE MONEY AT POKER AT ALL IS BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES.  THE MORE MISTAKES THEY MAKE THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE.  THE MORE PEOPLE MAKING MISTAKES IN A GAME THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE FROM THAT GAME.

Hold'em is a strange game. A table full of 'bad' players changes the game strategy entirely. It changes where you need to be on the distribution curve in order to hold the best hand. 7 or 8 'bad' players equal one very tough opponent. I rather play on a table with only 3 or 4 'bad' players. Normal strategies work more often.

[mk 11]

This is one of the hardest things to learn, but is extremely profitable once you can train yourself to BE PATIENT at a table of loose, weak players. It's so easy to start playing marginal hands, hoping to get paid off when you hit a hand. You need to be patient and wait for them to make mistakes. What you were describing is simply bad luck. If you get beat with top 2 pair by someone rivering a set, that might be your fault for not making it expensive enough for them to see all 5 cards. You have to make them pay for their draws! Crappy ATM players will chase draws when they're getting totally incorrect odds to call. This is how you make money from them. Ocassionally, they'll hit those miracle cards, but in the long run, you'll show a profit. Don't let a short little cold streak get you down. I agree with the other poster who said you should be DROOLING at the idea of players who will chase 2 outers to the river. He was an 8% shot to make his set after the flop and a 4% shot to make it after the turn. It doesn't get much better than that for you. Something else that goes along with that, however, is that you can't have 5 people drawing at you, chasing to the river. Of course someone's gonna make a hand. Push them out when you hit your hand, and get out of the way if you don't.

[Smasharoo 0]

an

[Smasharoo 0]

an

[jayboogie 0]

OK, look first of all I'm not sure where I was complaining in my post,You really weren't at first, but then the majority of posters after you were and it became a big "let's all cry and hold each other because we're loosing in the best possible games" session which sort of set me off. but anyways the reason why I posted this was because I've had several losing sessions in a row and I'm trying to look for alternative solutions as to why it's happening as opposed to dumb luck. Of course I welcome bad play and that's why you can make money in poker in the first place.There isn't an alternative.  Holdem is mostly luck.  It's critical that you understand that now.   That being said it's probably 80% luck, 20% skill.  That 20% edge is massive.  Vegas was built on games with less than a 1% edge.  That should tell you that consistnetly exploiting even a very small edge will yeild large long term profits.  Be happy Holdem is mostly luck.  If it wasn't,  bad players would nevevr have a winning session, and stop playing.  The beutiful thing about holdem is that bad players can not only have good sessions, they can have good WEEKS.  This is fantastic for you, the good player.  The player you dearly want to be playing against is a bad player who's been lucky recently.  Why should I bet the river when I know I'm beat?  A couple of reasons.  Firstly you DON'T know that you're beat.  Barring the sudden onset of psychic abilities, you NEVER know that you're beat for certain.  All you can ever do is make the best guess possible about the CHANCE that you are beat.  You may be beat on this river 70% of the time.  If that's the case, and everyone's likely to call a river bet with junk, YOU SHOULD BET.Can you see why?  If 4 people call your bet and you win even slightly more than one time in four this bet makes you money.  If you're beat only 55% of the time, it's a HUGE BLUNDER not to bet this river.  That's just like throwing away 2 big bets because I would have been check raised had I bet out. Those players were expecting me to bet out which is why it was checked to me on the river when they hit their miracle card.  Again, you have ZERO information that indicates that it's any more likely they hit a miracle card than they missed it but will call a river bet with crap.  Statisticaly, it's more likely they missed.  If you want to fold to a check raise after betting this river, that's fine.  That's saving a bet.  Not betting isn't saving a bet, IT'S COSTING YOU MONEY LONG TERM.Do you understand?The point of my original post is I've been losing a lot of sessions getting sucked out by horrible players that treat the game like bingo and I was asking for advice more than anything and trying to see if I was making any mistakes in how I was playing. I'm a student of the game and always trying to get better, so I welcome any criticism.My only critisim is this.  Talk to me when you play 20,000 hands at these limits and are down money.  The best way to lose money at these games is to miss bets and raises for value against weak players.  If you don't make them pay for playing worse hands than you, you are counting on the slim edge you gain by playing tightly preflop and raising only with very strong hands.You'll probably win money that way, but not very much, and when the inevitable downswings come you may end up down overall because you chose to not punish people for making mistakes.  Their mistakes ONLY BENEFIT YOU AS MUCH AS YOU PUNISH THEM FOR THEM.Now, I was shocked when I saw them play these hands, but I wasn't particularly upset until it happened a couple more times in the following hands. I lost 5 or 6 pots like this and was down $200 in less than an hr, now I know the books say you should welcome people outdrawing you, but tell me you wouldn't be the least bit ticked off when it happens to you every pot you play.I honestly, sincerely, wouldn't be.  I'd be doing everything possible to contain my happiness that I'd found a game that good.  I know if I play in this game or a game identical to if for 10,000 hands I'm probably going to make a metric asston of money.  The variance (which is what you're talking about when you loose a bunch of hands in a row playing correctly) is the only reason bad players continue to play badly.  If they never won against correct play they'd probably stop playing so poorly and we'd all be killing ourselves to try and beat the rake.  The variance is your freind.  The bad players who suck out on you are just your savings account.  They're simply holding your money for you, and will pay it back soon enough.  With intrest.  If you can't fade the variance you're either playing with too small of a bankroll for the game, or just aren't cut out to play Holdem.  Train yourself to respond emotionally to your PLAY and LONG TERM results, not short term results.Get upset when you play a hand WRONG, not when you loose a hand.  If I call three cold pre-flop with KJ and the flop comes KKK I think to myeslf "Boy that was stupid to call PF there.  You're an idiot."  I think it would help you to do the same.

Thanks for the response, I think it is a matter of myself not playing with a sufficient bankroll that's more the problem. I guess I haven't been playing long enough to the point of knowing whether or not it's actually profitable like this. I need to play more sessions in order to figure out what works well and what doesn't. I haven't been playing live too much in brick and mortar cardrooms. I guess as long as I know I didn't misplay a hand, then I guess I should feel pretty good about my play.

[DCWildcat 0]

Read SSHE.Bump for the newbies.

[macphec 0]

Pardon me for being blunt for a minute, but ahem:Stop the pointless inane whining for the love of god. Are you people serious?  You're complaining because you're playing at tables full of bad players??  Get this  through your skulls right now:THE ONLY REASON YOU MAKE MONEY AT POKER AT ALL IS BECAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES.  THE MORE MISTAKES THEY MAKE THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE.  THE MORE PEOPLE MAKING MISTAKES IN A GAME THE MORE MONEY YOU MAKE FROM THAT GAMEGot it?Bad beats like this DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT lose you money long term.  They MAKE you money long term.  Firstly, you should have bet that river, secondly you should have been trembling with greed almost unable to restrain yourself from jumping up and cheering when they turned that cheese over.  Can't you see it?  Playing with these people is like rolling a 10 sided die where you lose a dollar if it's 1-9 but you win 20 dollars when it's a ten.  Would you decide you didn't want to play that game because you lose most of the time?  Would you prefer to play a game where you flip a coin and win 54 cetns if it's heads but lose 50 cents if it's tails?If you would you're a fool.  You must understand poker is about winning MONEY not winning pots.  Winning 1 pot for 35 big bets in 25 hands  is BETTER than winning 10 pots for 3 big bets each.  If you can't undesrstand that concept, well, maybe poker's just not your game.  I know, maybe you should have a speling contest...

EXACTLY!! Well put Smash. Play straight forward poker against these players and in the long run you WILL BE A WINNER. Dont worry about the short term luck factor

[Koroshiya 0]

For what it is worth..."If you play four pots against one person, and in three you lose one small bet, but in the fourth you win five big bets, you have just done something really, really well. Sacrificing pots, losing hands, is a truly fundamental part of winning poker. Weaker players fixate on pots. They don't even care if their thinking is right; they just care if they won a pot. How often do you hear someone say "well, you did the right thing since you won the pot"? Baloney. Making dumb decisions that accidentally lead to winning a pot are not good things. They were mistakes. Yes, sometimes mistakes turn out to make us money, but making mistakes is not the way to be a winner. Focusing on getting the money in the long run is what makes a winner."http://www.playwinningpoker.com/articles/03/08.html

[RISEorFall 0]

for a few minutes I thought Smash was back....

[allinbluff35 0]

for a few minutes I thought Smash was back....

he is, search under members and find him, he posted the other day

[DCWildcat 0]

Weaker players fixate on pots. They don't even care if their thinking is right; they just care if they won a pot. How often do you hear someone say "well, you did the right thing since you won the pot"?

Here's a good example of that.I was playing a truly fishy calling station, one that I had a very strong read on (how couldn't I?). He's more predictable than Jafarrell saying something dumb.Hero: Raise with AJ from button.BB: calls.Flop: A 7 2.Bet, callTurn: QBet, callRiver: 7Bet, raise. I state "You censored censored, you censored stayed in with a 7. I can't believe I'm calling this. Censored pot size."Him: "I won, didn't I?"Me: "Yeah, you did. And if we played the last street 23 times, I would win it 22 of those. You have no control over whether the 7 falls. So how does that justify your play?"Him: "STFU newbie. You just don't understand poker."

[RISEorFall 0]

DC...if he just stayed in with a 7...don't your aces beat him? Did you mean pocket 7s? or A7? im confused....

[DCWildcat 0]

He had a 7 in the hole for trip 7's, beating my aces over queens

[RISEorFall 0]

ooohhh makes sense now. I missed the 7 on the flop. Ha I need more sleep...

[DCWildcat 0]

It's all good 8)