Unethical Or Just Good Strategy?

[stakman1011 0]

Ok, so last night I was accused of cheating at the final table of a tournament on Golden Palace Poker. I don't think what I did was unethical, although I can see their point.Here's the situation:4 handed at the Final Table of an 18 dollar rebuy tournament, a little over 1300 for first place. There were three of us with a little more than 100,000 in chips and one shortstack with around 25,000. I quickly realized that the other big stacks were playing way too tight because they were afraid of being knocked out while the short stack hung on. They were playing simply to move up the ladder and get a higher payout.I seized the opportunity and began playing very recklessly, and they in turn allowed me to run the table over. I was stealing more or less at will and building my stack up at the expense of the other big stacks.The short stack was playing kind of carefully, looking for a good spot to get his chips in (I thought he was playing too tight)At any rate, all that exposition is to set up this hand...I had stolen myself up to like 170K and the small stack had blinded down to 14K.With blinds at 5/10 K I was in the BB with a random hand. (I honestly forget...let's call it 10 4 offsuit, because it was somewhere around there) The short stack raised all in, 4K more to 14 total and the small blind folded. I was faced with the obvious, no brainer decision of calling 4k into a pot of like 25 k.I folded.the other two big stacks went crazy and accused me of collusion and cheating and soft playing and so on.I merely reasoned that it would be a better situation for me to keep the short stack alive.As it turned out, the move sort of paid off. I was able to continue stealing blinds more or less at will, and by the time the next player got knocked out (NOT the shortstack who, in part thanks to me, made a comeback) I had a huge chiplead.By the time we got 3 handed I had around 75 per cent of the chips in play and coasted to the victory. All throughout this the rail was accusing me of cheating and collusion etc.I ran the story by a poker playing friend of mine and he felt my actions were "unethical" because I didn't "play equally tough against everyone."I still maintain my actions were ok but I'd be interested in other opinions.Thanks, Stak

[JMoney2681 0]

Not unethical. Just stupid.

[chgocubs99 0]

Not unethical. Just stupid.

[aucu 3]

Take them out if you can, that small stack can double a couple of times and be back in the hunt in a flash.

[mrdannyg 274]

i don't think it's unethical or stupid. so long as there is a big difference in your ability to steal when its 3-handed vs. 4-handed, it is a very good play.

[Tiltinagain 973]

How would this be unethicalIs there a rule to the tourney that if you're getting 6 - 1 odds you HAVE to call?Absolutely not.I don't think I would have played it the same way but not because of the ethics involved.It's your money, make the plays you want to I say.

[JMoney2681 0]

i don't think it's unethical or stupid. so long as there is a big difference in your ability to steal when its 3-handed vs. 4-handed, it is a very good play.

Trust me, I understand the "strategy" behind this, but OP wasn't too big of a chip leader in comparison to the other 2. He should've taken out, or at least tried to take out the short stack, move up in money, and then battle the other 2. Not calling the 4K more is terrible. One more double up from him and he's back in the hunt for sure. OP just got lucky it worked out for him this time, thats all.

[chgocubs99 0]

i don't think it's unethical or stupid. so long as there is a big difference in your ability to steal when its 3-handed vs. 4-handed, it is a very good play.

No. The goal of the tournament is to win all the chips. To do that, all the players must be eliminated, by you or by someone else. Making that play is horrendously -EV in the long run.

[showstopper24 0]

it wasn't unethical-they were just mad you didn't take him out

[_Great_Dane_ 0]

Based on what you said, I see nothing wrong with folding your hand, regardless of what your intentions were. You could have said the same about the small blind folding. Someone could have made an argument that you should have called, based on the pot odds, but the fold, based on the way that you described it, is not collusion or cheating (assuming that it was not chip dumping to an associate).

[GWCGWC 83]

It's a bad play but not unethical.There is no reason to think the other two players would start playing back at you 3 handed as they both would want to move up one more spot in the money.seriously, you call there with any handcongrats on the win

[GambleToWin 0]

I don't think it was unethical, but I don't see why you made that play with those odds given to you. Although, you may think that the other players are "worried about moving up in the money" you have to be to. I know your chipleader, but it doesn't matter anything can happen there. I understand your logic, but I think its kind of dumb. But, you did win and it worked for you. Congrats on the Tourney and the $1300. Buy yourself something nice

[sholden 0]

Trust me, I understand the "strategy" behind this, but OP wasn't too big of a chip leader in comparison to the other 2. He should've taken out, or at least tried to take out the short stack, move up in money, and then battle the other 2. Not calling the 4K more is terrible. One more double up from him and he's back in the hunt for sure. OP just got lucky it worked out for him this time, thats all.

If he can steal more that 25k before the small stack goes out it makes sense to fold.It's even better when you do it by bluffing into a dry side pot on the river with 7 high to keep the short stack alive a bit longer...

[MadKennedy420 0]

A win=A win right? or A win=niw A

[EurekaKid 0]

I do this all the time in sit and gos where I have a huge lead with 4 to go and I can tell the two medium stacks are jsut hanging on for the enxt guy to be eliminated. It's good strategy, nothing unethical. It can sometimes backfire, but its worth it when players are hanging on.

[AcesUp46 0]

I actually like your move there. You clearly understand the psychology that was going on and you correctly figured you'd have a better chance at stealing even more with the super short stack around. Well done.There is nothing unethical about your play. The other players were upset because they were playing too tight and were unable to correctly adjust for your style.

[stakman1011 0]

I didn't post this in Strat because I didn't really want a debate on the strategy, but rather whether it was ok ethics-wise.The consensus seems to be I did nothing wrong ethically and that makes me happy.As for the play itself I'm not convinced one way or the other that I did the right thing.It's obvious that the play itself was -EV...I knew that at the time.I'm sure the threat of the short stack tightened up the other two stacks...which in turn gave me more equity on the subsequent steal attempts. I'm not sure whether the increased equity on later hands made up for the lost equity on the BB hand.I don't really know how to calculate it, and I don't think a calculation is possible.It seems to me as though I saved 4K while giving up around a 40 % shot at 33K. I don't know how to quanitfy my increased equity on steals though, so a good comparison seems impossible to me.I do know that I stole the blinds successfully a few more times before the fourth place player got eliminated...But perhaps that thinking is too results oriented.At any rate, I appreciate all the feedback, both on the strategy side and the ethics problem.StakOh yea, one more thing. This tournament (like many) seemed to be pretty heavily weighted toward the top 3 places. If not for this rather significant jump I would not have made the play at all.

[GrinderMJ 0]

This was neither unethical nor was it stupid. This situation is very similar to being a chipleader in a turbo sng where the blinds get huge and it's optimal play for the chipleader to keep the shortstack alive.

[KoRnholio 2]

It's good strategy, nothing unethical. It can sometimes backfire, but its worth it when players are hanging on.

QFT. With the other 2 stacks playing too tight, it can be very right to extend this "bubble-like" situation to steal your way to an even higher chip count. Once that short stack gets knocked out, 3rd place is generally a big step up in the money and the other 2 players will likely stop playing too tight. Why ruin a good thing by potentially knocking out that shorty?

[yergan 0]

THere was a post in the strategy forum about Scott Fischmans SnG strategy.He mentioned using exactly the same strategy. i.e. keeping the short stack alive so you can continue stealing blinds on the bubble.

[Moneyball16 0]

I believe Daniel has a cardplayer article about this very situation where in hindsight he wished he would have folded KK aginst a shortstack allin because he was playing to win and folding in that spot would have allowed him to create a huge stack for himself. I have also heard Gavin Smith and Phil Hellmuth comment that folding here might be the right play.

[chgocubs99 0]

This was neither unethical nor was it stupid. This situation is very similar to being a chipleader in a turbo sng where the blinds get huge and it's optimal play for the chipleader to keep the shortstack alive.

I would disagree with this. Perhaps if you get down to 4 players in a sit n go, and the blinds are 50/100, and you have 7,000, and others have 1,000 apiece, it is optimal. Once the blinds get big, it's time to start taking people out. If the blinds are 200/400 in the same scenario I'm calling every single time in the big blind to any of the players all in, with any two cards. The last thing you want is someone getting healthy they should have been knocked out long ago.

[Petoria 0]

Good job OP, that was a fairly advanced line of thinking. It's neither unethical, nor stupid. Keep up the good work.

[chgocubs99 0]

Good job OP, that was a fairly advanced line of thinking. It's neither unethical, nor stupid. Keep up the good work.

LOL. I like that.Sometimes the obvious play is the right one. This is one of those times.

[Santzes 0]

Very brilliant move, and far from unethical. I can see why the others think you're cheating, but I like the move. And the "cheating" may even make them tilt.

LOL. I like that.Sometimes the obvious play is the right one. This is one of those times.

This is result orientated thinking, but he lost like.. approx. 30% equity in $29k pot - 70%*4k.. and won $70k stealing the blinds? I think it was a brilliant move.