Playing With Poor Players...

[Abbaddabba 0]

Theoritically, as long as you dont bluff them, you SHOULD win more in the long run.....however I think the main point of this thread is......since most people play with "average" players, who know the basics of what to do and what not to do, they find it hard to adapt.

It's only hard to adapt if you're one of those "average" players.

[psujohn 0]

I think in reality when people say they'd rather play with "good players" what they mean is they'd rather play with "predictable players". Predictability plays out sort of like a curve. Real beginnners are unpredictable because half the time they don't know what they have - or at least don't know how strong they really are. Really good players are unpredictable because deception/mis-direction is a big part of playing at the highest levels. Somewhere in the middle people go through a real by the book phase where they're very easy to read and easy to exploit.

[Fade2241 0]

Most of these responses bring up very good points. I think the best advice when playing bad players is simply to stay tight/aggressive initially. Waiting for monsters is a bit too conservative at the outset. *TRY* to thin the field by raising when strong the first couple of times but if too many people call your bets/raises consistently, the waiting for monsters approach is probably gonna be the more effective one. My point though is just because they are bad players doesn’t mean you can’t run over them sometimes. Don’t forget that.

[opie 0]

This summer I went to Vegas for a confernce ... and to play live casino poker for the first time. I started off slow - $2-$4 limit (I usually play $1-$2 on-line), just to build up my confidence. I lost, even though I knew I was the best player at the table. So I stayed at that limit the next day - and lost. I lost and lost and lost for 5 days.It was really frustrating because they other players were generally really bad. I saw a 6-5 hold up to win on a board of A-J-8-3-2 ... in a FOUR WAY POT (other hands were 6-4, 5-4, 5-4). I saw a player call someone else who was bluffing ... with a 3-2 - the WORST possible hand (he didn't pair the board). I mean, really, REALLY bad players - some drunk, some having no clue. I could often tell exactly what other players had, but either I got no cards or I just got outdrawn.But I knew I was playing well - just not getting cards (plus being killed by the rake at a $2-$4 table). Be patient, I kept telling myself.The last day I went to the Wynn and played $4-$8 limit. The skill level at that table was a million times better than I had been playing, but I really focused and won back everything I had lost earlier in the week (+$200). I got some good cards, but also I played well again, and wasn't horribly unlucky like the rest of the week.Or maybe I just suck and don't know it. :-) But I doubt it, since I had a pretty good guess what my opponents had, and knew what the odds were, and things just weren't working out.In summary - it was easier playing against the clueless donks, but very frustrating not winning. In the long run, there is much more money to be made against poor players, but it can be maddening in the short run when you get unlucky.Peace,Opie

[chewybarber 0]

Just an observation--nobody thinks they suck at poker. --weird-- the poker ego

[Actuary 3]

I have little POKER ego.I sorta suck at it.I just suck less than enough others sitting with me; so I can make a little money2c/4c at a time right now.

[mtdesmoines 3]

The problem is that this is live.The second problem is that at a table of 9 fish and you, you will get outdrawn quite a lot.The third problem is that the long run takes forfuckingever when you only see 25-30 hands / hour.The resolution is that you never feel ahead if you are having a bad session/week/month.You don't see these people complain when they happen to be on an upswing and win 100 BBs in one night, or you do the next time when they expect their 20 BB/hour rate to continue.These people just don't understand long run expectation, that's all.- Zach

PS: 100 BB per night is chump change at a live table.

[iggymcfly 0]

At a level as low as 2/4, I really think the rake structure can hurt you close to as much as the poor players help you, especially live. It makes sense that a 4/8 game would be easier to beat.

[chewybarber 0]

Being a poor player myself, I can tell you I hate playing against strong players. (Luckily for me, I am learning on the minibet.)I'll throw something else out, I've noticed that a lot of the big talkers--table coaches--can't find the fold button, and they never think they are beat; naturally when these people loose they yell and cry, and swear they have never seen such a lousy group of players. Well, I've never seen so many "pro" players who can't find the fold button.

[James D 0]

Being a poor player myself, I can tell you I hate playing against strong players. (Luckily for me, I am learning on the minibet.)

Hey, quit putting yourself down man... Confidence is important. I'm sure you're better than you think, just stop playing the 92 offsuit yeah? Good luck too.

[BuffDan 0]

Last night on ESPN's re-run of a day during the 2003 main event, Lon mentioned that Paul Darden said he would rather play against a bunch of quality pros than he would against amateurs because he believes that, since pros no how the game should be played, they are easier to read. Just an interesting piece of info I wanted to share in relation to this topic.

The thing about this is "easier" does not translate to to "more profitable." To use an extreme example, it is easier to play 27o facing a medium raise in front of you, as it is just folded, then it is to play queens, as you have to decide whether to call or reraise, and then reevaluate on the flop, etc. But the queens sure are more profitable.

[rgold79 0]

My experience has been that the people who complain most about playing with lousy players are the people who are least capable of varying their style of play depending on table situation. Each game has its own unique set of players and so must be approached differently in order to maximize profitability. A table full of "donkeys" probably means the game is running loose. Personally, my strategy at a table like this is to play tight, pick my spots carefully, and pound people when I have the goods. Truth be told, this requires excellent discipline, and at live table seeing 30 hands an hour can be tough (advice: if you can focus while listening to an ipod, bring one - it helps alleviate boredom). But the best players are the ones who can adapt their game situationally, and the good players who can't do so tend to be the ones who complain about bad play.

[UncleHoot 0]

But the best players are the ones who can adapt their game situationally, and the good players who can't do so tend to be the ones who complain about bad play.

Yip. DN, 2006 WSOP ME.

[BudBundy 0]

Yip. DN, 2006 WSOP ME.

2000 WSOP was the millenium not 2006.

[SnakeEyes 0]

Ok, here it is.A good player will never call your all-in with a flush draw when you have a set. A bad player will. In the long run, you getting called is phenomenal. In the short-run, the bad player has a relatively significant chance at making a hand that beats you. Good players don't give you the luxury of this. Bad players do.So when you lose a $1k pot to a donk on a flush draw, it stings. But you need to thank them for the opportunity to double your money with tremendous odds.When the donk holds 10 3os, and they called your pf raise and the flop comes A 10 6 to your AK, they will also call you with pretty decent odds (25%ish) to suckout on you. It's hard to see it coming since you can't put a donk on a hand.I hope this makes sense because I am sauced.

I agree, and good points. However, 10 3os has about an 18% chance to suckout on this hand. 1 in 5 chance instead of 1 in 4.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

2000 WSOP was the millenium not 2006.

2006 ME = 2006 Main Event, where you getting "Millenium" from? I think he is referencing DN berating a player saying: "That's not poker!"

[BudBundy 0]

2006 ME = 2006 Main Event, where you getting "Millenium" from? I think he is referencing DN berating a player saying: "That's not poker!"

i know i was just being goofy

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

i know i was just being goofy

Ah!

[Actuary 3]

i know i was just being goofy

gobble gobble

[BudBundy 0]

is it turkey time there yet?

[Actuary 3]

is it turkey time there yet?

past, about 2 weeks ago.For Christmas we eat roast and ham and turkey too.Unless you are poorthen you eat chicken.

[BudBundy 0]

Huh.Turkey is cheaper than chicken here. They are both very cheap.Two weeks ago must be the thanksgiving then yea?

[Actuary 3]

Two weeks ago must be the thanksgiving then yea?

yep.aside from Prime Rib Roast, those other meats aren't expensive.

[Zach6668 513]

Canadian Thanksgiving > American Thanksgiving.

[No_Neck 0]

Canadian Thanksgiving > American Thanksgiving.

you sir are insane, whats the story behind yours?