hblask 1 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I'm not sure if this is the right spot for this, the Tournament forum seems out of place. I just wanted to post about something that is probably obvious to those of you who are good players, a good reminder for those of us in the middle, and can hopefully provide some insight to beginners or people who are struggling.The scenario is two consecutive nights of Protege tournaments. First night, I bust out in 6th to a bad beat. Oh well, these things happen (top three move on to the next round).Second night: it was a difficult tournament for me. The first hour was as card-dead as I've ever been, so I started the second hour in push-or-fold-but-probably-push mode. I was third from the bottom with over a hundred left. Then my luck changed, and I was able to get to the final two tables.But here's the key: I got a bad beat on a terrible call from someone on a chase. It didn't knock me out, but again put me to the bottom in any-two-all-in territory. Instead of saying 'nh' and getting my focus back, I chose to get into an argument with him, calling him names and crap. Even 5 hands later when I had built my way back to where I was before the bad beat, I was still steaming. Shortly after that, villain busts out when this time his bad play catches up to him. Still, am I over it and focused? I thought so, but not really.A few hands later, we are 5-handed, waiting for one more to bust to get us to the final table, and I get AJ. I raise, and get reraised enough that calling is not an option -- it's push or fold. And in that moment, the bad beat, the swings, the fatigue of two straight nights of this made me push into a hand that, if I was lucky would be a coinflip, but more likely was dominated. In retrospect, it was obvious. What would reraise me in that situation: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and maybe, possibly AQ, although my read said no (and maybe 10% for a bluff-reraise). Yet I pushed, counting on luck or the universe or something to rescue me. Three hours of careful play gone in one decision. And you know what? I think if I had just said 'nh' when villain sucked out 20 hands ago, I wouldn't have made this call that cost me the tournament. Because I had allowed my emotions to take over for my logic, all because of *somebody else's poor play*.You can decide how you respond to the game's ebb and flow, to the good luck and bad. The right decision gets you to the finish line. A moment's weakness means your hard work is for nothing.That is all. Flames not necessary, I know this wasted 3 minutes of your life. Link to post Share on other sites
fatman 1 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I know this wasted 3 minutes of your life.It actually only wasted about 90 seconds. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 It actually only wasted about 90 seconds.Oh good, that's a relief. I only have to feel half as bad for starting this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Freddec 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 good post OP................ Link to post Share on other sites
fatman 1 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Oh good, that's a relief. I only have to feel half as bad for starting this thread.No need to feel bad. I read it on my own free will. Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Strangeglove 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 had the very same thing happen to me in 100 + 15 live tourney (140 ppl about ) last wednesday ended up busted out in 12th ( final table pays )raised it up w/ JJ and got reraised to point of push or foldonly seen villian play a couple of hands but when pushed preflop he held AKof course he held QQ 4 me and Q on flop to add insultfrom now on i will see jacks and try to think of them as colorful elevensclarifying editrewind a few levels and i had folded 10's to a strong reraise from button and he rolled over A9 suited and later again same player reraised my KQ only to show KJ. Those two hands set the tone for me not wanting to laydown a semi strong pair preflop Link to post Share on other sites
WallstreetMSU 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 good post OP. Keeping your head on straight is half the battle when playing tournaments, any pro will tell you that.you provided some good insight.But you still wasted 90 seconds of my life.Good day.lol Link to post Share on other sites
The Bwaves 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I'm not sure if this is the right spot for this, the Tournament forum seems out of place. I just wanted to post about something that is probably obvious to those of you who are good players, a good reminder for those of us in the middle, and can hopefully provide some insight to beginners or people who are struggling.The scenario is two consecutive nights of Protege tournaments. First night, I bust out in 6th to a bad beat. Oh well, these things happen (top three move on to the next round).Second night: it was a difficult tournament for me. The first hour was as card-dead as I've ever been, so I started the second hour in push-or-fold-but-probably-push mode. I was third from the bottom with over a hundred left. Then my luck changed, and I was able to get to the final two tables.But here's the key: I got a bad beat on a terrible call from someone on a chase. It didn't knock me out, but again put me to the bottom in any-two-all-in territory. Instead of saying 'nh' and getting my focus back, I chose to get into an argument with him, calling him names and crap. Even 5 hands later when I had built my way back to where I was before the bad beat, I was still steaming. Shortly after that, villain busts out when this time his bad play catches up to him. Still, am I over it and focused? I thought so, but not really.A few hands later, we are 5-handed, waiting for one more to bust to get us to the final table, and I get AJ. I raise, and get reraised enough that calling is not an option -- it's push or fold. And in that moment, the bad beat, the swings, the fatigue of two straight nights of this made me push into a hand that, if I was lucky would be a coinflip, but more likely was dominated. In retrospect, it was obvious. What would reraise me in that situation: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and maybe, possibly AQ, although my read said no (and maybe 10% for a bluff-reraise). Yet I pushed, counting on luck or the universe or something to rescue me. Three hours of careful play gone in one decision. And you know what? I think if I had just said 'nh' when villain sucked out 20 hands ago, I wouldn't have made this call that cost me the tournament. Because I had allowed my emotions to take over for my logic, all because of *somebody else's poor play*.You can decide how you respond to the game's ebb and flow, to the good luck and bad. The right decision gets you to the finish line. A moment's weakness means your hard work is for nothing.That is all. Flames not necessary, I know this wasted 3 minutes of your life.At least you saw an important fraction of the big picture of poker.This is a great example actually. It defines the term "tilt". Everyone remembers when they first began the poker journey and everyone knows that guy who always pushes with 89s and hits the straight. It's a part of poker.I'm sure fatigue and the other things you listed were a factor but the main factor was another players bad play.The first thing you thought was what a donk! OMFG I can't believe it. TP/MM. Whatever.You should have been thinking; Okay this player is willing to put all his money in the pot as a complete underdog. If I wait and pick the right spot I can most likely stack him with a decent hand or marginal hand.A virtue I don't think a lot of players value in poker is "level-headed-ness". Or the ability to observe above a particular situation.A good example of this is a boxing match. Imagine if you were going to fight mike tyson and you knew you could win only if you had the confidence to beat him in a fight.Well during the weigh in he's telling you he's going to bone your wife, kill your kids, and pummel you until your his concubine. Would you let this get to you knowing that if you don't have to confidence to beat him you'll lose? Of course not.You would tell him he better get the number to the waaaaaaaaaaaambulance because he's going to be crying all the way to the hospital.You must approach poker with the same mentality. No matter what happens I'm going to try and make the best dicision to win the most money in the long run. If that means folding aces on the bubble when three people go all in you do it.Think above the situation, put yourself in others shoes, and keep a level head, I gaurantee you would have made that protege seat.Gl, the bwaves. Link to post Share on other sites
FourFlusher 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Good post, OP.There's and old expression that doesn't really mean anything, but, makes some kind of back door sense: When you're up to your *** in alligators, it's difficult to remember you're initial objective was to drain the swamp.You have to remember your objective is to take it down, not punnish anybody.I tend to target certain players that piss me off, or that I think bluffed me out, but I know in my heart it's not a good idea. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 This is a great example actually. It defines the term "tilt". Everyone remembers when they first began the poker journey and everyone knows that guy who always pushes with 89s and hits the straight. It's a part of poker.I'm sure fatigue and the other things you listed were a factor but the main factor was another players bad play.I think in this case, it actually was the adrenaline letdown from having tilted, sort of a post-tilt exhaustion that said "this game is hard, maybe I'll try to get lucky". I hadn't even felt that when I was down to 600 in the first hour, near the very bottom. Back then I said "I'm getting back in this thing." After the bad beat, when I was still steaming, I said "I'm getting back in this thing." Finally, the unnecessary adrenaline fades and, when faced with a decision, I say "I need luck to stay in this thing." Without the sudden drop in energy, I may not make that decision. Link to post Share on other sites
benhoug 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 OP, stack sizes/blinds/amount you raised/amount he re-raised would be helpful. Maybe I'm just lazy and didn't see them as I skimmed the post, but that would help w/ analysis. Link to post Share on other sites
FourFlusher 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 No it wouldn't. He didn't ask if he made the right play, he simply described the way his emotions controlled the game. Stacks/blinds don't matter here. Link to post Share on other sites
benhoug 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 No it wouldn't. He didn't ask if he made the right play, he simply described the way his emotions controlled the game. Stacks/blinds don't matter here.sure they do. It could've been the right play.OP is assuming he made a bad play b/c he let his emotions get the best of him, he tilted or whatever. I'm not so quick to assume that he made a bad play. He probably did, but given all the info. on the hand it could've been the only play to make. I'm just looking to fill in some holes here. Link to post Share on other sites
M101A1-105 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Good post and not a waste of either 3 minutes or 90 seconds. We have all been there at one time or another. I was reading the latest Bluff this morning and Sam Farha did the same thing to Moneymaker after the "big" bluff. Sammy should have smoked Moneymaker but instead, his mind got bent. Link to post Share on other sites
DB10-2 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 staying off tilt or at least recognizing and managing it is a key aspect of poker. i don't care if you've played 2 weeks or 20 years. look at our gracious host on least season's HSP and you'll see that even top pros will tilt off cash like the rest of us.the last time i had it happen to me was in an $1800 tournament of champions freeroll in a private L.A. league. it was long levels and deep stacks, but most people were playing pretty big pots anyway. i was trying to stay out of big pots with marginal holdings but found myself right there anyway:i tried to slowplay AJ on a board of A-Q-J in a pretty big pot, but when the turn came a 7 (bringing two spades) and both a short stack and a guy who had me covered pushed, i folded the hand. it was a good fold as the short stack was on a flush draw with KQ and the big stack had turned a set of 7s. the river would have cost me a ton of chips as another Q came off, making a boat for one player and trips for the other. i would have gone from winning the hand on the flop to being crushed by the river. just seeing that upset me.anyway, i made a solid laydown, but was steaming because i could have taken down a decent pot on the flop but chose to slowplay in a dangerous situation. just the idea that this mistake had almost cost me everything got me tilting. in the next few hands, i dropped about 1/4-1/5 of my stack and really never got it going after that. i made the final table but busted pretty quickly. lesson? keep it together. my advice if you want to learn how to take bad beats is to play cheap online SNGs and freerolls. since there's little to no money involved, set a reward for yourself: if i take down this $5 SNG or cash in this silly $100 freeroll, i will buy myself _____. then play it hard and see what happens. the benefits will be that the players are so bad you are sure to take some beats. it's a good, cheap way to learn how to deal with them, and if you play OK, your expectation should still be positive. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 OP, stack sizes/blinds/amount you raised/amount he re-raised would be helpful. Maybe I'm just lazy and didn't see them as I skimmed the post, but that would help w/ analysis.True, it's possible that AJ is a reasonable call 5-handed against a re-raise. But here's the facts I (should have) cared about: 1) my M was still just into double digits, so I had time.2) the guy who re-raised had played very few hands, about as few as I had3) the guy who re-raised had me covered, but not by enough to engage in frivolous reraises.4) I feel like I play better at full tables, so waiting for one more person to go out would be to my advantage Link to post Share on other sites
phishjones 0 Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 quick question... What did the guy who reraised you have? Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 quick question... What did the guy who reraised you have?He ended up having a QQ, and no ace showed to save me. Link to post Share on other sites
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