Big Preflop Pot, Flop Top Set Of Aces Facing Pot Bet, $200 Plo8

[akishore 0]

Pacific 200 PLO8 ringMP - approx $650Hero - approx $600MP is the only stack at the table that covers me, much less comes close to me. The only hand I have seen of his is when he three-bet (pot) on a flop of 7-6-5 with just 3-4-x-x. That three-bet covered his only opponent, so I saw no turn/river play in that hand (his opponent pushed with just a bare A-2-x-x and got counterfeited on the river to get scooped).Folds to MP who pots it to $7, I repot to $24 with As Ah 9c 2h, folds back to MP who calls.Pot is $48.45 after rake, flop is Ac Jh 5c.MP bets pot at $48.45, I repot to $193.80, ...Is this good or terrible? I know I'm not in great shape against both a low draw and a flush draw (but to my surprise, it's nowhere as bad as I thought it would be, only 50/50 ish according to twodimes, or 45/55 if he also has a straight draw of some kind), but I hate waiting for a "safe" turn card and I think it's also a mistake to fold with this strong of a hand (granted, not super strong, but heads-up it is, I think??).Let me know, I was very uncomfortable in this situation. Thanks!Aseem

[Vman96 0]

Since you two are so deep, I would be tempted to wait for a safe turn card. 234x with two clubs is a real threat on the flop here. I know PLO8 at pacific is horrendous...I have played it a few times, and I wish they had lower limits, but still...youre probably a coin flip at best. For this hand though, I think a high non club is a "safe" turn card. Unless he has the balls to call your reraise preflop with KQTx

[jjgoldy5 0]

Pacific 200 PLO8 ringMP - approx $650Hero - approx $600MP is the only stack at the table that covers me, much less comes close to me. The only hand I have seen of his is when he three-bet (pot) on a flop of 7-6-5 with just 3-4-x-x. That three-bet covered his only opponent, so I saw no turn/river play in that hand (his opponent pushed with just a bare A-2-x-x and got counterfeited on the river to get scooped).Folds to MP who pots it to $7, I repot to $24 with As Ah 9c 2h, folds back to MP who calls.Pot is $48.45 after rake, flop is Ac Jh 5c.MP bets pot at $48.45, I repot to $193.80, ...Is this good or terrible? I know I'm not in great shape against both a low draw and a flush draw (but to my surprise, it's nowhere as bad as I thought it would be, only 50/50 ish according to twodimes, or 45/55 if he also has a straight draw of some kind), but I hate waiting for a "safe" turn card and I think it's also a mistake to fold with this strong of a hand (granted, not super strong, but heads-up it is, I think??).Let me know, I was very uncomfortable in this situation. Thanks!Aseem

High variance = push.Low variance = wait for safe turn (you hate any 2-4 or club)While I don't think pushing the flop is bad...Edit: The more and more I think about it, I call the flop bet and push a good turn, I can see this guy getting trapped for his whole stack with something like A23x if we dont raise the flop. Deception is key. I think he is betting out on any turn (not check calling his low draw) because when you call the flop he is going to put you on a low draw also. If you pot the flop and a disaster card falls on the turn, you are out 200$, which seems -EV when I think you are going to get his money anyways on a safe turn.Good luck.

[akishore 0]

Okay, here is a serious question.If we just call, we are very susceptible to be facing a big bet on most any turn.Tell me, what turn cards are "safe"? (There's a reason I put safe in quotes in the OP.)J and 5 of course.A club is clearly not safe.A deuce, three, or four is not safe (opens up a wheel possibility).A king, queen, ten is not safe (opens up a broadway possibility).A six, seven, eight is not safe (he could have the low locked and it would be monkey-stupid retarded of me to get it all in drawing dead to half the pot, and if he has any kind of wheel/broadway/flush draw, he will be a significant favorite).In other words, I think my life becomes exponentially more difficult on the turn, because practically every card in the deck besides an offsuit 9 is dangerous in some way, and I force myself to that decision.But what is really ****ing with me is the deep stacks. If it was NL, I'd argue that a push is correct because it denies your opp the odds if he's behind and also makes decisions ultra-easier. But even if I repot it here, we still have a few hundred left behind... ****!That said, I still am not convinced AT ALL that just calling is good (you are literally going to give up the pot if one of those "unsafe" cards comes and you face a big bet??) nor I am convinced that repotting is good.Such a f'ing tricky hand....Aseem

[akishore 0]

I also posted this at 2+2, if any of you are interested in following that thread.http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...;Number=7477912Aseem

[jjgoldy5 0]

I also posted this at 2+2, if any of you are interested in following that thread.http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...;Number=7477912Aseem

On second thought, just fold. This hand is giving me a headache! :angry2:I just cant see him giving you action on a hand that is much less than 50/50 here because your hand is so transparent as a set of aces. What would you think about a smaller raise? I just hate committing ourselves to this pot without getting it all in... we will still have 200BBs behind on the the turn...ugh I hate deepstack PLO8...this is so much easier in a NL game.As an aside, when there is another 300BB+ stack at the table, I am cashing out and rejoining in 30 minutes :)I actually like FullTilt's Cap games for this reason.

[akishore 0]

I just cant see him giving you action on a hand that is much less than 50/50 here because your hand is so transparent as a set of aces.

I kind of disagree with this. Many people raise with hands like A23x or even A2KK or some other similar stuff (at least they were in this game), and I don't think people practice great hand reading ability. Also, I allow him the opportunity to make a mistake for big money. Finally, he can easily give me action with a lower set or be stubborn with a counterfeited A2xx if he sucks, etc. Don't underestimate how much people suck at this game. =D

What would you think about a smaller raise?

I thought about this and dislike it. I mostly want him to fold. And what is the purpose of a smaller raise -- am I folding to a reraise? (hell no.) Is it just to keep the pot small? Then why wouldn't I just call? The big raise is mostly for fold equity and value if he calls while behind.

As an aside, when there is another 300BB+ stack at the table, I am cashing out and rejoining in 30 minutes

TOTALLY NOT. I <3 donkeys with big stacks -- more money. Seriously, everyone sucks hardcore. Look at the example I gave in the OP -- he f'ing pushed with the *** straight (3-4-x-x on 5-6-7 flop) and a terrible low, he just got lucky that an even worse player called with a bare A-2 low and got counterfeited on the river. I hate hate hate leaving the table when I have a huge stack.AseemP.S. You should hate Full Tilt's cap games, because the majority of my winnings have come from monstrous river bets where I either scoop or three quarter. I would hate limiting my winnings in that way. If you have an edge, and a huge one, why limit it?

[jjgoldy5 0]

I kind of disagree with this. Many people raise with hands like A23x or even A2KK or some other similar stuff (at least they were in this game), and I don't think people practice great hand reading ability. Also, I allow him the opportunity to make a mistake for big money. Finally, he can easily give me action with a lower set or be stubborn with a counterfeited A2xx if he sucks, etc. Don't underestimate how much people suck at this game. =DI thought about this and dislike it. I mostly want him to fold. And what is the purpose of a smaller raise -- am I folding to a reraise? (hell no.) Is it just to keep the pot small? Then why wouldn't I just call? The big raise is mostly for fold equity and value if he calls while behind.TOTALLY NOT. I <3 donkeys with big stacks -- more money. Seriously, everyone sucks hardcore. Look at the example I gave in the OP -- he f'ing pushed with the *** straight (3-4-x-x on 5-6-7 flop) and a terrible low, he just got lucky that an even worse player called with a bare A-2 low and got counterfeited on the river. I hate hate hate leaving the table when I have a huge stack.AseemP.S. You should hate Full Tilt's cap games, because the majority of my winnings have come from monstrous river bets where I either scoop or three quarter. I would hate limiting my winnings in that way. If you have an edge, and a huge one, why limit it?

I usually play one level above where I normally would play in the cap games, and the games are super juicy (people make even dumber decisions than normal).This guy is a donk -- no question. If your goal is to make the guy fold, pot the **** out of him (never bad to do with the nuts), but I really believe that even donks are going to see that you have a set of aces here.In one respect, your turn decision will be easier (especially if he folds) if you raise... but in another, it will be much more difficult (usually) when a non board pairing, non nine falls (most of the time) when we get to to the turn.If he makes a low, you are drawing to half the pot, but are committed such that you have to call your remaining 400$ against a freeroll, and as you said, with any high card other than a 9 falling, you have no idea where you stand.Personally, I keep the pots small in those sorts of sticky situations...it plays more like a draw than a made hand. A smaller raise can get you a free card on the turn, provides much of the same fold equity (any idiot can see you have AAA here), and avoids being committed to drawing against a freeroll on the river.Thoughts?

[akishore 0]

Good points. I am unsure right now but will digest these and reply later.Thanks!Aseem

[jjgoldy5 0]

Good points. I am unsure right now but will digest these and reply later.Thanks!Aseem

Aye, give your brain a rest... Thanks for posting this.

[mrdannyg 274]

i'm with akishore on this one. its all well and good to say wait for a turn card, but there simply aren't many. since this is on pacific, i don't think a 6-7-8 are particularly bad, since most pacific players are such donkeys, this may actually give us a chance to 3/4 them if their low is counterfeited.i just go ahead and pot here though. again, this is pacific - potting here might easily allow us to get it all-in against A9 or a lower set. waiting for the turn is going to really kill our playability. without a read on his betting patterns, i'm not comfortable waiting for the turn here.

[navybuttons 15]

i'm with akishore on this one. its all well and good to say wait for a turn card, but there simply aren't many. since this is on pacific, i don't think a 6-7-8 are particularly bad, since most pacific players are such donkeys, this may actually give us a chance to 3/4 them if their low is counterfeited.i just go ahead and pot here though. again, this is pacific - potting here might easily allow us to get it all-in against A9 or a lower set. waiting for the turn is going to really kill our playability. without a read on his betting patterns, i'm not comfortable waiting for the turn here.

i think it's unlikely we are 3/4ing anybody in this this hand. this week the O8 forum has seen the return of aki, wintermute, JackKingOff, and now dannyg. it would be a blast if cham and smash came back. who was it wintermute always used to get in fights with? i know "who hasn't he got in fights with?" but there was one in particular.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Against a better player, I think maybe a flat call would be best, with the intention of pushing any non-low, non-club turn, and folding otherwise if he bets pot again. His flop bet would concern me, since he's firing into us when he has to be aware that there's a good chance we have aces, and I'd be geniunely worried about A234, A23 with a club draw, or silmilar hands. Also, it seems unlikely that a strong player would have a broadway draw here, given his preflop play and his flop bet.But, against this guy, who's presumably not an especially good player (given the earlier hand you mentioned), I think repotting is probably best. He could have a hand like AKQ2, AKQJ, KQJT, etc., meaning that a high card turn isn't necessarily safe. And he could be betting this flop with a variety of other hands that we're well ahead of, stuff like AJ32. By repotting, we get enough money in the pot that if he calls, we'd be getting 2-1 if he puts us all-in on the turn. Getting 2-1 on the turn, we'd be correct to call unless he had a made straight or flush. So I think if the turn is a 4 or any low club, and he pushes after calling the flop, I think we need to consider folding. But any other turn card, and I think we have to call (we wouldn't be getting the quite the right odds against broadway or a flush with no low; but a call would not be a terrible mistake against those hands, since we can still draw out for a scoop; whereas against a wheel of a flush+low, we can only draw out for half).Summary: I like the way you played the flop against this guy. But, if you respect your opponent's play, and you feel his flop bet deserves a lot of credit, then I think you should smooth call and see the turn cheap.

[navybuttons 15]

Against a better player, I think maybe a flat call would be best, with the intention of pushing any non-low, non-club turn, and folding otherwise if he bets pot again. His flop bet would concern me, since he's firing into us when he has to be aware that there's a good chance we have aces, and I'd be geniunely worried about A234, A23 with a club draw, or silmilar hands. Also, it seems unlikely that a strong player would have a broadway draw here, given his preflop play and his flop bet.But, against this guy, who's presumably not an especially good player (given the earlier hand you mentioned), I think repotting is probably best. He could have a hand like AKQ2, AKQJ, KQJT, etc., meaning that a high card turn isn't necessarily safe. And he could be betting this flop with a variety of other hands that we're well ahead of, stuff like AJ32. By repotting, we get enough money in the pot that if he calls, we'd be getting 2-1 if he puts us all-in on the turn. Getting 2-1 on the turn, we'd be correct to call unless he had a made straight or flush. So I think if the turn is a 4 or any low club, and he pushes after calling the flop, I think we need to consider folding. But any other turn card, and I think we have to call (we wouldn't be getting the quite the right odds against broadway or a flush with no low; but a call would not be a terrible mistake against those hands, since we can still draw out for a scoop; whereas against a wheel of a flush+low, we can only draw out for half).Summary: I like the way you played the flop against this guy. But, if you respect your opponent's play, and you feel his flop bet deserves a lot of credit, then I think you should smooth call and see the turn cheap.

why have i not seen you that much before? and why can i not have your babies? i think this is the line. nh

[Vman96 0]

i think this is the line. nh

I agree. This covers both kinds of opponents very well. I suggest a similar line...but this was only for a player that knew what he was doing...Potting into you so you do raise and he gets all his money in on the flop like he wants to with two cards to come and has an equity edge! Against someone who may not realize you have AA...mr. nice guy's suggestion is very good.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Even I am against a complete moron I will be calling here.For one, villain potted preflop and called the repot, then villain potted the flop.You gotta give credits to his play. Either he had lots of draws or he's scared and tried to stop draws. The problem here is, we don't knowwhich is which!Either way our major problem is our stack is so deep , and we have only one way hand here without much redraw. If villain calls the repot, then pots the turn if a low, high, or a club come and they don't pair the board nor a 9, then we don't know what to do.Sure our hand could be way ahead, ahead, and our hand will never be far behind. But the problem with our hand is its bettability on the turn and river unless the board pairs on the turn or a nine falls.What's our advantage here? We have position on villain so we can act after villain do.What if we just choose to call? It could as well create pressure on our villain if a scare card comes on the turn.You are not losing much here really in the worst case folding on the turn, and villain will think you are weak-tight and bluff you more in the future if he dares in this hand. The good thing is villain sucks, oop, and he has deep stack as well (don't worry, most deep-stacked fish will stay in the game for long until they lose them all). Poker is not just about current hand, think about how to use the current play (and hence what image it will create for your opponents) to win it in the future. Your stack is deep so try to protect it, it's ok to be outplayed in one hand, eventually you will take his whole stack.Also, to win a moron's whole stack, you really need a super strong hand. No need to gamble and wait for your spot to pick your fight, don't lose it in a small edge, take it down in a big edge.Now if we are against a decent player, the decision is much easier.Also, if you want to gamboool, take the small edge on the flop to win villain's whole stack, then just make a small raise, I will say 90% of the time your and his stack will go in the middle.So I will just choose to call. If villain pots again on the turn, fold. If villain checks, toss a small bet to the pot and see how he reacts. Remember, villain is a bad player, he's going to tell you what he has.

[Wintermute 0]

Okay, here is a serious question.If we just call, we are very susceptible to be facing a big bet on most any turn.Tell me, what turn cards are "safe"? (There's a reason I put safe in quotes in the OP.)J and 5 of course.A club is clearly not safe.A deuce, three, or four is not safe (opens up a wheel possibility).A king, queen, ten is not safe (opens up a broadway possibility).A six, seven, eight is not safe (he could have the low locked and it would be monkey-stupid retarded of me to get it all in drawing dead to half the pot, and if he has any kind of wheel/broadway/flush draw, he will be a significant favorite).

The only cards I'd be really worried about are clubs that don't pair the board and 2's, 3's, and 4's. In particular, if a K,Q, or T comes off and the guy checks to you, it's a pretty easy PSB to take it down. The guy's probably got an Ace given his PFR, but it's doubtful he's raising AKQT from EP, which is the only holding that makes sense for him to lead on the flop that would be worrisome with a K/Q/T board. If you then say well he's an idiot and will bet the turn no matter what card comes, then terrific--put him all in when he bets on a broadway board and stack his stupid ***.The kinds of hands he'll have most often when he fires into you with on the flop are A23/A24ish, with some clubs most of the time. I'd say put him on this type of holding and then get active when the turn bricks. If you catch a 6, 7, or 8, you can fold the turn to a big bet since you're getting freerolled.

[Chamonyx 0]

I think Mute nailed it in his response (and in the other thread, so I won't revisit that).I would push here if I could get 75% of my remaining stack in, but otherwise you want to retain the advantage of position.Having the option to fold on the turn has significant value with deep stacks.