This Is How Aggression Wins In Small Stakes Hold 'em... 3/6

[akishore 0]

Honestly not much to discuss here, I think I played correctly on every street, but I want to explain my thinking as I go along to help out people who are learning limit hold 'em.Waaay sorry if this comes off as super arrogant, not meaning to be, but I strongly feel that what I did (particularly on the flop) was correct, and I feel that if you disagree, you are not maximizing your EV.3/6 ten-handedTable fluctuates between loose and tight (this hand was clearly on one end of the spectrum...). Aggression seems average.I am MP2 with 9 8 .UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, MP1 limps, I limp, MP3 limps, 2 folds, SB raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, I call, MP3 calls.The original limp is the only part of the hand which I won't argue much and admit is pretty close. I really liked the prospect of huge implied odds if I flopped hard -- there were already four limpers ahead of me and would likely be more behind me.(16 sb, 8 plrs) 9 6 4 SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, 3 folds, I three-bet, 1 fold, SB caps, BB folds, UTG folds, I call.This is the tricky street. Too many people cold-call here, or worse, fold (gasp -- look how big the pot is! If you don't understand how this is definitely not a fold, ask). So, let me explain my thought process here.Once SB bet, I wasn't planning to raise. I figured three or four would call ahead of me and I would also call -- a raise doesn't accomplish much since I'm not getting hands to fold behind me. You could argue that I could raise for value if a ton of people call, and maybe I would agree.However, once UTG raised and everyone folded up to me, I think it's a clear three-bet. Cold-calling doesn't do much, but imagine if we get SB to fold his AK and we're ahead of UTG? This type of scenario doesn't have to happen much to make this play way profitable.Once SB caps, it is pretty clear he usually has an overpair here. But even so, getting the other two guys to fold is monstrous -- suddenly my equity shoots up in a humongous pot, and I'm always cool with that. Ask if you need more help understanding this concept (and if you do, you probably need to read the bible of low limit hold 'em by Miller and Sklansky).(13 bb, 2 plrs) J SB bets, I call.Standard call, I am getting huge odds on what is almost always a clean five-outer. Also add in the chance that we actually have the best hand, easiest call ever.(15 bb, 2 plrs) 9 SB bets, I raise (w/ intent to call a three-bet), ... (results not shown)Standard raise. I am almost always good, and no way I'm folding to a three-bet in this huge pot -- the odds that he 9x (e.g. A9), JJ, 66 or 44 (pretty much the only reasonable hands which beat me) are way too small to justify a fold. If anything, one could argue that this is a cap, but I think calling a three-bet has better expectation.First little disclaimer: I am not claiming that my flop three-bet made me hit my five-outer and crack villian's likely AA/KK/etc. I am claiming that my flop three-bet improved my winning chances in a big pot, either by isolating myself against a villian that is overplaying his hand (e.g. AK) or by cleaning up all my outs -- e.g. folding a higher 9x there is monstrous, as is something like 7x that can have a straight redraw if I turn an 8, or 88, etc. The idea is that if I'm not folding, adding in one extra bet is worth if it if it can improve my winning chances by a certain amount, and that amounts needn't be that big when the pot is this huge. Second little disclaimer: the principles I applied in this hand don't always apply in limit hold 'em, sometimes not even in 3/6 games. This would usually be a terrible play in an Absolute 2/4 game but can be a brilliant play in a live 20/40 game -- it all depends on the game texture, and this type of aggression mostly works best in loose games where your opponents frequently take their hands too far and make many mistakes postflop.Feel free to post questions, etc.Aseem

[Zach6668 513]

This post is sooooo detailed. I need to come back and read it later. I'll be back.

[Moneyball16 0]

I would fold preflop. I dont really think its as close as you think, but you might be good enouhg postflop to make up for playing this hand in the position.I dont really have a problem with your flop play given the size of the pot, but I have some questions.Any reads on SB and UTG? If everyone calls your flop 3-bet, what is the gameplan on turn and river?We're calling river ui, right?

[DonkSlayer 1]

Are absolute limit games really that strong? Yikes, I feel amazing about myself right now. Cold shower time.

[rwood 0]

just curious what are you doing if it's 3 bets to you there?

[SuM827 0]

was this online, or live? Online, I'd say you may as well fold, and save your self the work. Getting involved in these hands is something you don't need to do when multi-tabling.

[mrdannyg 274]

Are absolute limit games really that strong? Yikes, I feel amazing about myself right now. Cold shower time.

sometimes, they'll play very strong. often there are a couple fish, so the overall EV for the game is decently high, but essentially yes.try to find some people who are long-term winners 2+bb/100 at 2/4-3/6 on absolute. not many. probably none better than 3.as for the hand, we do vastly increase our equity with the flop 3-bet, but i'm not sure i like it that much for a few reasons:1 - UTG has a set, and we're drawing dead (nearly). pot is too big to fold, so we're putting in 5-8 SB with nothing.2 - this board is draw-light, but is it played the same way with 2 diamonds on the flop? now our outs aren't so clean.3 - how much are we really improving our equity? are people folding 9s? I'm just not sure if we improve our equity enough to put in 3-4 bets here.I actually like raising more without the UTG raise, since then an SB 3-bet will thin the field in the same manner, and we save ourselves a bet.

[DonkSlayer 1]

This isn't really an accurate title, right?It implies that your aggression took down the pot from a situation that would've otherwise gotten away from you. That's not what happened. You inflated your equity, caught your suck out, and won a big pot because you pumped the pot. So, "How increasing equity = big payoff", right?

[Abbaddabba 0]

try to find some people who are long-term winners 2+bb/100 at 2/4-3/6 on absolute. not many.

HELLO!!!11I dont know about it being that bad. 2/4 especially usually has really easy tables - look at the one posted for ****s sake. 6 limpers? 3/6 is tougher. And for whatever reason, 5/10 full ring are usually real easy when they get going. 3/6 short handed on absolute at night can be ****ing deadly though. Have you ever watched some of them? A circle jerk of players who're actually really good. I dont know why they bother. You'd think they would be bright enough to realize that there are better options out there. Ive spent SOME time there (with 4 other tables open, mind you), but i leave pretty quick.I wouldnt even think twice about 3betting the flop. Possibly ahead, 5 probably outs + decent bd straight draws (any 5,7,8,9 or 10 all improve you). And pretty often you get someone with a big pair to shut down and go into call down mode giving you a free card or free showdown.It's not unreasonable at all to get a few better hands to fold either. If there werent as many limpers and it wasnt raised preflop, it'd probably be a fold. 8BB stuffed in there preflop is yummy though. And when action is at you, the pot is already jacked up to 10BB. For 1.5 bets, im stabbing away with almost any piece.You know ive actually seen people raise/fold the flop in comparable pots? I 3bet the flop a pair + gutshot combo, did some stuff on other tables and came back to see the pot being awarded to me.

[akishore 0]

What the hell makes any of you think this hand happened on Absolute??? When have you ever seen an eight-way pot in your lifetimes at Absolute?? God I hate that site, and for a good reason. If this had happened at Absolute, hell would have officially frozen over.Aseem

[Abbaddabba 0]

I just assumed it because i saw other people saying it.But im guessing this is where it comes from,

Second little disclaimer: the principles I applied in this hand don't always apply in limit hold 'em, sometimes not even in 3/6 games. This would usually be a terrible play in an Absolute 2/4 game but can be a brilliant play in a live 20/40 game

Which doesnt really imply that this hand was at absolute unless you're saying that you made a shitty play.And what do you have against absolute? I <3 it.

[antistuff 0]

care to share what site has 3/6 games this soft?

[mrdannyg 274]

HELLO!!!11I dont know about it being that bad. 2/4 especially usually has really easy tables - look at the one posted for ****s sake. 6 limpers? 3/6 is tougher. And for whatever reason, 5/10 full ring are usually real easy when they get going.

i thought you were at 1.7? either way, there still isn't many above 2. i think i only have 3-4 people in my DB above 1.5, including us.the 3/6 full games are generally pretty tough, and 3/6 are murderous. 2/4 is usually not too bad, and 5/10 is a good mix of decent players, people playing too high, or people who just like round numbers and shouldn't be playing at all.i don't know where this came from, but the 3/6 on titan is this soft.

[Abbaddabba 0]

i thought you were at 1.7? either way, there still isn't many above 2. i think i only have 3-4 people in my DB above 1.5, including us.

That was my new database. ... which is now 1.95. My old database is about 2.5 (same number of hands in each).And that's before filtering out short handed. Im high 2's at full ring.

[rog 0]

Fold preflop. Seriously...I fold preflop. However, the flop 3-bet is really really easy. Pot's too big to fold. Face the field with 3-cold to clean up outs. I dont really consider capping the river.

[Zach6668 513]

care to share what site has 3/6 games this soft?

Aseem thinks we are all datamining him and tracking his every move so we can take his bankroll, so he doesn't disclose the site.

[akishore 0]

Haha, no, it's not that. I just don't like FCP'ers to know who I am sometimes and alter their play against me. Mostly it's because I'm seeing more and more FCP'ers everywhere...AseemP.S. This hand was on Pacific. I haven't seen eight way pots anywhere else, fwiw...

[Zach6668 513]

LOL, fine then.Don't worry though, I quit limit, so you don't have to worry about me