Am I Right, Or The Floorman?

[chrozzo 19]

Ok, this happened in July and i am now just getting to posting it. I ma not completely sure regarding the poker room rules on this subject. I have been in and out of poker rooms for 3 years now and feel I know most precedures quite well. I was at Harrahs casino in Vegas. PLaying some 1/2 NL, full ring game. I had been there for about 45 min and up to 250 from 100 buy-in. in this hand SB has about 70 and MP has 32. I am in BB with K 9 . No raises and I check for the flop. Flop comes A 9 J , so I have bottom pair with nice draw. SB bets out 20, I call 20 and and MP goes all in for 12 more on top of 20. At that point the SB reraises all in as well for another 45 or so. I mention to the dealer I thought he could not raise again after the MP raised only 12 into his initial bet., and I certainly did not want to chase that for another 45 bucks.I ask that the floorman come over to verify, she called him over and he said the bet stands, even though he had not yet put it into the middle (he only put the 12 in and also announced the raise). Anyways, the floorman let him put his remaining chips in and I folded, only to have a fourth heart come on the turn, lol.Was I wrong in my call, or did Harrah's have it right?Thanks

[MaryWithoutSound 0]

Ok, this happened in July and i am now just getting to posting it. I ma not completely sure regarding the poker room rules on this subject. I have been in and out of poker rooms for 3 years now and feel I know most precedures quite well. I was at Harrahs casino in Vegas. PLaying some 1/2 NL, full ring game. I had been there for about 45 min and up to 250 from 100 buy-in. in this hand SB has about 70 and MP has 32. I am in BB with K 9 . No raises and I check for the flop. Flop comes A 9 J , so I have bottom pair with nice draw. SB bets out 20, I call 20 and and MP goes all in for 12 more on top of 20. At that point the SB reraises all in as well for another 45 or so. I mention to the dealer I thought he could not raise again after the MP raised only 12 into his initial bet., and I certainly did not want to chase that for another 45 bucks.I ask that the floorman come over to verify, she called him over and he said the bet stands, even though he had not yet put it into the middle (he only put the 12 in and also announced the raise). Anyways, the floorman let him put his remaining chips in and I folded, only to have a fourth heart come on the turn, lol.Was I wrong in my call, or did Harrah's have it right?Thanks

They were wrong, unless they have a special house rule...and you probably had odds to call..though I might be wrong.

[kennyg1966 0]

considering the 12.00 was all in i think the bet was OK.I would have called it though with a very good draw to the nuts!!

[Chrisj1616 0]

considering the 12.00 was all in i think the bet was OK.I would have called it though with a very good draw to the nuts!!

He shouldnt have been able to reraise to 45 all in BUT you made a donk play by not calling

[No_Neck 0]

yea they screwed up, because the 12 isn't a full reraise.

[pocktdeuces 0]

He shouldnt have been able to reraise to 45 all in BUT you made a donk play by not calling

the cardroom i play at has a rule that the raise only has to be half of the previous raise in order for you to raise. as in...i bet 10, another guy goes all in for 16...a third guy calls the 16...i can reraise to any amount that i want. i know that this is not all that common, but that may be the rules that were in play at this place.Jesse

[goose 0]

SB shouldn't have been able to reraise because the MP all-in didn't qualify as a raise (double the bet).Essentially they allowed the SB to raise himself. Bad call. Perhaps the dealer got confused by the limit 50% rule, which says that in limit, when the all-in is equivelant to 50% or more of the bet then it can be raised. (i.e. 10/20 game on the turn, player goes all-in for 15, that can be raised to 40)I made a couple of bad calls like this when I first started dealing as well.

[mx957 0]

the cardroom i play at has a rule that the raise only has to be half of the previous raise in order for you to raise. as in...i bet 10, another guy goes all in for 16...a third guy calls the 16...i can reraise to any amount that i want. i know that this is not all that common, but that may be the rules that were in play at this place.Jesse

This is the answer you were looking for.

[akoff 0]

He wouldn't have been able to do it in Atlantic City but maybe by house rules.you were still getting close to 3 to 1 on your call for 45 more...i didn't count it but you had to be close to that..I would have called with the nut flush draw plus the nines and runners to a str8...Did anyone do the math for this?

[umop-apisdn 0]

He wouldn't have been able to do it in Atlantic City but maybe by house rules.you were still getting close to 3 to 1 on your call for 45 more...i didn't count it but you had to be close to that..I would have called with the nut flush draw plus the nines and runners to a str8...Did anyone do the math for this?

Pot contained $123... so almost 3:1. Outs consist of 9 for the nut flush & assuming that both opponents have a pair or 2, 2 outs for trip nines... So 11 total. No implied odds since both opponents are all-in.Post this in a stategy forum - you'll get better (as in more accurate) responses.

[mx957 0]

This is the answer you were looking for.

Ok, I stand corrected the 1/2 raise rule applies to limit only. The floorman was wrong and you were 1/2 right (you were wrong when you folded for only $45 more but that's another story). Here's the rule from Robert's Rules of Poker (No-Limit Section).3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous The act of placing a wager in turn into the pot on any betting round, or the chips put into the pot. bet or To increase the amount of a previous wager. This increase must meet certain specifications, depending on the game, to reopen the betting and count toward a limit on the number of raises allowed. raise on that betting round, except for an When you have put all of your playable money and chips into the pot during the course of a hand, you are said to be all-in. all-in wager. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently To increase the amount of a previous wager. This increase must meet certain specifications, depending on the game, to reopen the betting and count toward a limit on the number of raises allowed. raise an When you have put all of your playable money and chips into the pot during the course of a hand, you are said to be all-in. all-in The act of placing a wager in turn into the pot on any betting round, or the chips put into the pot. bet that is less than the full size of the last The act of placing a wager in turn into the pot on any betting round, or the chips put into the pot. bet or To increase the amount of a previous wager. This increase must meet certain specifications, depending on the game, to reopen the betting and count toward a limit on the number of raises allowed. raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)And here's the link: http://www.robertspokerrules.com/chapter14.php

[A_Bullets_A 0]

He can make that raise. The dealer and the floorman were right. A lot of places use the 50% rule for both limit and no-limit. Since the bet was $20, the raise of $12 more is enough for anyone to be able to re-raise again. Only if it was $9 or less would you just be able to call or fold. That's how we do it where I work anyways, but I'm sure the rules could be different in other casinos.

[AcesUp46 0]

Seriously, it really depends on the cardroom. Some say that an all-in raise that's at least half the previous raise/bet reopens that round of betting (akin to limit play). Others say that the total all-in raise has to be a full one (ie twice the opening bet on the flop) in order for the betting to be reopened.This matter invites debate and disagreement even amongst noted poker rules authorities. Here's 2 Cardplayer articles by Bob Ciaffone (Robert's Rules of Poker) and Mike O Malley (PartyPoker host) that show their disagreement regarding an all-in issue that is very similar to the situation that the OP described.Ciaffone's articleO Malley's articleSo who's interpretation of the rule is better? Honestly, I'm fine with either rule so long as the cardroom applies it consistently. What I really hate is when cardrooms are inconsistent in applying their rules.Hope that helps.

[CBass1724 1]

I thought that guy could raise to get you out but if he simply called it meant you could not raise to get him out. Am I way off on this?

[akoff 0]

QUOTE(akoff @ Friday, September 15th, 2006, 8:28 AM) He wouldn't have been able to do it in Atlantic City but maybe by house rules.you were still getting close to 3 to 1 on your call for 45 more...i didn't count it but you had to be close to that..I would have called with the nut flush draw plus the nines and runners to a str8...Did anyone do the math for this?Pot contained $123... so almost 3:1. Outs consist of 9 for the nut flush & assuming that both opponents have a pair or 2, 2 outs for trip nines... So 11 total. No implied odds since both opponents are all-in.Post this in a stategy forum - you'll get better (as in more accurate) responses.My thought is that if I am close to to the right math I will call and pay it off. I want action when I play a hand. I am a firm believer that a few marginal calls for smallish type pots can produce huge gains in a monster later on....call it implied futures!!

[Socrates 0]

The 50% rule is the standard nowadays in limit, NL and tourny play. The rule was originally created for limit, but gained acceptance in NL over the past few years. Secondly, you folded!?!?!? Aside the fact that it was a cash game, this was pretty much an insta call.

[AcesUp46 0]

QUOTE(akoff @ Friday, September 15th, 2006, 8:28 AM) He wouldn't have been able to do it in Atlantic City but maybe by house rules.you were still getting close to 3 to 1 on your call for 45 more...i didn't count it but you had to be close to that..I would have called with the nut flush draw plus the nines and runners to a str8...Did anyone do the math for this?Pot contained $123... so almost 3:1. Outs consist of 9 for the nut flush & assuming that both opponents have a pair or 2, 2 outs for trip nines... So 11 total. No implied odds since both opponents are all-in.Post this in a stategy forum - you'll get better (as in more accurate) responses.My thought is that if I am close to to the right math I will call and pay it off. I want action when I play a hand. I am a firm believer that a few marginal calls for smallish type pots can produce huge gains in a monster later on....call it implied futures!!

As for the hand itself, I think OP made a marginally bad fold. He had a monster draw: nutflush + 2pair/trips draw + runner straight draw. The naked nut flush draw itself is just slightly -EV, but when you have the other redraws, your draw becomes +EV overall, but not by a big amount (especially after discounting the value of your outs). So, a fold is not so bad.One factor that would swing me towards making this call would be the fact that it's a max buyin that's capped at 50 big blinds. If I hit my draw, I'd have a big stack that will allow me to be one of the bigger stacks at the table. If this was a tournament situation, I'll be looking to get all my chips into the pot.

[AcesUp46 0]

Ok, so I was bored and decided to run through the following simulations. Since you said you had to call $45 to win the $123 in the pot, you'd need more than 36.6% equity in the pot for your call to be +EV.Worst case. You're up against top set (AA) and a made flush with a redraw to the straight flush (QhTh). Here's the breakdown of your equity.Kh9d - 19.7%AcAd - 30.8%QhTh - 49.5%Rather unrealistic case.Best case. You're up against 2 underpairs with no heart.Kh9d - 90.8%2c2s - 4.6%4c4s - 4.6%Clearly this is an unrealistic case too.Probable case 1. You're up against a naked Ace and another flush draw.Kh9d - 47.8%Ac2d - 40.9%Qh8c - 11.2%Probable case 2. You're up against an Ace+flush draw and 2 pair.Kh9d - 39.9%AcTh - 21.6%Jc9c - 38.5%Probable case 3. You're up against a naked Ace and a set.Kh9d - 31.1%AcTd - 4.22%JcJs - 64.7%Since you don't really know precisely what hands they have, you can average out the 3 probable cases and you'll have an averaged equity of 39.6% which then makes your call +EV but only very slightly.Of course, you may wish to create more probable cases and then see how your hand fares against against that. My gut feel is that it's only very slightly +EV against the average of all the probable hands that your opponents could have in this situaton.

[DanielSon 0]

I'm going to start bringing these rule books to the casinos with me and everytime a floorman gets it wrong, I'll open it to the page and throw the book in his face, then cash out....

[Actuary 3]

push the flop next time instead of calling $20You want to see both cards if you're going to pay $20 for the turn; and you don't mind picking up the $26 either, if all fold

[brvheart 1,752]

Ok, this happened in July and i am now just getting to posting it. I ma not completely sure regarding the poker room rules on this subject. I have been in and out of poker rooms for 3 years now and feel I know most precedures quite well. I was at Harrahs casino in Vegas. PLaying some 1/2 NL, full ring game. I had been there for about 45 min and up to 250 from 100 buy-in. in this hand SB has about 70 and MP has 32. I am in BB with K 9 . No raises and I check for the flop. Flop comes A 9 J , so I have bottom pair with nice draw. SB bets out 20, I call 20 and and MP goes all in for 12 more on top of 20. At that point the SB reraises all in as well for another 45 or so. I mention to the dealer I thought he could not raise again after the MP raised only 12 into his initial bet., and I certainly did not want to chase that for another 45 bucks.I ask that the floorman come over to verify, she called him over and he said the bet stands, even though he had not yet put it into the middle (he only put the 12 in and also announced the raise). Anyways, the floorman let him put his remaining chips in and I folded, only to have a fourth heart come on the turn, lol.Was I wrong in my call, or did Harrah's have it right?Thanks

I don't know about this situation, although the way I understand it the reraise shouldn't have been allowed, and I haven't read any of the other posts in this thread yet... But I'm fairly sure, you shouldve called another 45, you were already in for 20, and you had the nut flush draw... that would be an easy call for me to make.

[MasterLJ 0]

Yep, more than half the raise is re-raisable at my local casino as well.

[NoSup4U 0]

the cardroom i play at has a rule that the raise only has to be half of the previous raise in order for you to raise. as in...i bet 10, another guy goes all in for 16...a third guy calls the 16...i can reraise to any amount that i want. i know that this is not all that common, but that may be the rules that were in play at this place.Jesse

Where I play has the same rule, if someone raises all in for more than half of the previous bet/raise, you can reraise. But this game is a 5/150 spread limit game. So technically its not NL, you can bet anywhere from $5 to $150.So the all in was legal, at least in my casino in the 5/150 game.Mark

[rog 0]

Since you don't really know precisely what hands they have, you can average out the 3 probable cases and you'll have an averaged equity of 39.6% which then makes your call +EV but only very slightly.

Okay, I didn't check your math, or anyone else's, but with 40% equity, getting 3:1 to call, how is this "slightly" +EV? 3:1 makes it break even at 25% equity. This is a pretty freakin big edge. I'd call this in a heartbeat. The nut flush draw alone gives you 33% equity making a call seriously +EV without any other outs. Did I miss something here?

[mobius481 0]

Okay, I didn't check your math, or anyone else's, but with 40% equity, getting 3:1 to call, how is this "slightly" +EV? 3:1 makes it break even at 25% equity. This is a pretty freakin big edge. I'd call this in a heartbeat. The nut flush draw alone gives you 33% equity making a call seriously +EV without any other outs. Did I miss something here?

You are correct.However, I figured 135 in the pot. Here is the breakdown:Pre flop $6 (it could be more than this but not less)Then$20 bet$20 call$20 call with $12 raise$12 call with $45 raise$135 in the pot with $57 to call, not $45, that puts you at 2.37 to 1 on the pott odds and if you take the 39% stated earlier, that is 1.56 to 1.Should have called.Finally, I think the ruling was wrong but I haven't played in a casino in about a year. Maybe the rules changed. I do like the idea of throwing the rule book at the guy though. Sounds fun.