Question For Daniel Regarding High Stakes Poker & Nl Cash Games

[kwantum 0]

Hi all,Long time lurker and a big fan of DN. I've recently been watching Season 2 of High Stakes Poker on GSN. I have a question for Daniel and the board, no idea if he reads these threads or not.There seems to be a trend on HSP of simply flat calling the flop when you have top pair or and over pair on a non-scary board. I always thought "Small Ball" was mostly applied to tournament play, but a lot of players on HSP seem to simple call on the flop.Examples:Eli raises in MP with ATo. Daniel calls.Flop is 5 2 2 rainbow. Eli bets close to the pot. Daniel simply calls.Turn is another 5. Eli checks, Daniel checks. River is a 6. Eli checks, Daniel bets $20,000 or so, and Eli folds.I've also seen Eli do similar when the board is like KJ4 and he's holding K9. Someone bets, and he simply flat calls. Conventional wisdom from most of my friends that play NL cash games online is that you raise the flop with an overpair or top pair usually to find out where you are at. Obviously, if your opponent is too aggressive, calling is optimal since he'll bluff off more money. I personally don't care for flat calling the flop with a vulnerable hand like top pair or a small overpair unless you're specifically playing a habitual bluffer. But I'm interested in the "Small Ball" concept as well. Gavin Smith talks about it a lot on The Circuit and I think Daniel mentioned it will be a chapter in his upcoming book about it.Lastly, I guess the stakes on HSP and in the "Big Game" may often affect player's decisions in terms of pot control compared to a 5/10 or 10/20 online NL cash game. Perhaps flat calling the flop when the stacks are shallow is more appropriate since you don't commit yourself on the flop with a big raise.I'd love to hear from Daniel and the other forum members on this type of play. Thanks and GL,K.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

When you have a vulnerable hand TPTK or worse, you want to keep the pot small.

[kennyg1966 0]

David Grey folds alot of hands the 80% of the GSN players would play in a heart beat !!He is playing scared IMO. might be slightly over his head!$1,092,530 lifetime winnings and 2 - 1st places!

[rogerwilco 0]

Not exactly on-topic, but something I thought was interesting in the last episode:Daniel raised rather strongly with 55 to avoid seeing a flop, which would likely cost him money in the props.I never thought, prop-bets actually influenced the game directly like that. It might make it even more difficult to evaluate someones play in a hand without this additional information.

[fatman 1]

David Grey folds alot of hands the 80% of the GSN players would play in a heart beat !!He is playing scared IMO. might be slightly over his head!$1,092,530 lifetime winnings and 2 - 1st places!

And he is pretty annoying.

Not exactly on-topic, but something I thought was interesting in the last episode:Daniel raised rather strongly with 55 to avoid seeing a flop, which would likely cost him money in the props.I never thought, prop-bets actually influenced the game directly like that. It might make it even more difficult to evaluate someones play in a hand without this additional information.

Did anyone else hear when Gabe Kaplan said that the producers were not allowing props next season. I wonder if this will affect who plays or not. I gotta think they do props so that they don't get bored.

[kwantum 0]

When you have a vulnerable hand TPTK or worse, you want to keep the pot small.

I understand this, however there are other means of keeping the pot small as well. And when you just call, you will often face a big bet on the turn and get blown off your hand anyways. For instance, if you raise the flop then get bet into on the turn, you can usually safely fold unless you improve your hand or have a good read on your opponent. If he checks to you, you also have the option of checking behind if the board is not scary and calling any reasonable river bet unimproved, or value bet the river if checked to.Another reason I don't usually lean towards flat calling, is that if you tend to CALL with vulnerable hands, a smart opponent will pick up your play. If you only raise the flop with monsters or big semi-bluffs, you will start seeing more "2nd barrels" fired at you on the turn. And against thinking opponents you will see less action when you flop big and raise because you are more transparent with your betting. Obviously, you have to mix up your play some, but I like to mimic the plays I make with monsters even when I have something as vulnerable as top pair, top kicker in order to receive future action.Again, I love and understand the point about pot size, but it always seemed like more of a tournament concept to me. Care to elaborate?

[kennyg1966 0]

they did say no props.BUT knowing the degenerats gamblers that they are!!they will just keep it quiet!all the producer can do is keep the $1200/hr. they make if they let it slip!!$1200.00 to these guys is a straddle bet !!and i guess that answers our question about next season!!

[budica 0]

And he is pretty annoying.Did anyone else hear when Gabe Kaplan said that the producers were not allowing props next season. I wonder if this will affect who plays or not. I gotta think they do props so that they don't get bored.

I believe that he was just saying they "should" stop props, not that they were going to. I think they should make them a bigger part of the show!

[rogerwilco 0]

I think they should make them a bigger part of the show!

Hmm, as I see it, prop-bets are just a terribly complicated way of tossing a coin - not too interesting to watch in my opinion...But if the producers want to make the show realistic they should let the players do whatever the fuck they want.

[budica 0]

Hmm, as I see it, prop-bets are just a terribly complicated way of tossing a coin - not too interesting to watch in my opinion...But if the producers want to make the show realistic they should let the players do whatever the fuck they want.

I agree, that it's just like tossing a coin. Maybe they could just add a quick 3 second spot twice a show to say what the players have made or lost on their props.

[koolromeo 0]

i think the props will be gone next season. one of the reasons poker has become mainstream, is that it is a game of skill and not just degenrate gambling. the whole prop thing makes the poker seem a bit shadier. i think it's a bit strange that these players have mastered their game to the point where they have become world famous and multi millionares from poker, but they blow huge money on things like props and golf. players like dn don't go to the pit and put 500k on the line at craps, but they think nothing of pissing away half a million on golf or props. for as smart as dn is at poker, he doesn't seem to realize that he is the " sucker at the table" when these guys get him on the golf course.

[Scott3705 0]

I understand this, however there are other means of keeping the pot small as well. And when you just call, you will often face a big bet on the turn and get blown off your hand anyways. For instance, if you raise the flop then get bet into on the turn, you can usually safely fold unless you improve your hand or have a good read on your opponent. If he checks to you, you also have the option of checking behind if the board is not scary and calling any reasonable river bet unimproved, or value bet the river if checked to.Another reason I don't usually lean towards flat calling, is that if you tend to CALL with vulnerable hands, a smart opponent will pick up your play. If you only raise the flop with monsters or big semi-bluffs, you will start seeing more "2nd barrels" fired at you on the turn. And against thinking opponents you will see less action when you flop big and raise because you are more transparent with your betting. Obviously, you have to mix up your play some, but I like to mimic the plays I make with monsters even when I have something as vulnerable as top pair, top kicker in order to receive future action.Again, I love and understand the point about pot size, but it always seemed like more of a tournament concept to me. Care to elaborate?

There has been a fair amount of slowplaying a lot in this game and there has been a fair amount of bluffing off with air. So in that context, calling would make half sense. If nothing else in a live game, it keeps anyone from trying to run over the table by calling a lot of flops. I do agree that the hands that they show of Daniel make it seem like his play is very transparent. He calls with marginal hands and raises with big draws, big hands, and air. If you're really looking to understand it, I would suggest searching Iggymcfly's recent posts in the NL strat section. A number of them dealt w/ this concept and there was pretty good back and forth about the merits of both. I am personally not a fan of the bet, reraise, fold line very often. Just like you said a thinking player may think one thing about one line, I felt like a lot of people picked up that bet, reraise, fold line from Alie when he was playing and were putting him to the test constantly as well.

[alf13 0]

When you have a vulnerable hand TPTK or worse, you want to keep the pot small.

Exactly.There is no need to play nervous nelly poker there and instigate a big pot with a vulnerable hand.There is also something to be said for having a good read on what your opponent holds and sweating a card to gain another bet from your "oblivious" opponent. The turn card was a good one for Daniel's hand (based on Daniels read) and he just moved the sweat to the river. Daniel probably had a good read on Eli and knew he would probably "bluff" the river or value bet the river with Ace high on that board. Eli wiggled out of doing what Daniel wanted, so plan B was simply value bet his hand..which he did.My guess is that Daniel thought he could get 20k called from Eli with Ace High on the river. You know he had to know his hand was best when he did bet the 20k, so you must give credit to Eli for not being as oblivious as he seemed in the hand.Good read, followed by good play, by both players involved.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Not exactly on-topic, but something I thought was interesting in the last episode:Daniel raised rather strongly with 55 to avoid seeing a flop, which would likely cost him money in the props.I never thought, prop-bets actually influenced the game directly like that. It might make it even more difficult to evaluate someones play in a hand without this additional information.

You would too if you had a 5 in 5 out of your 7 props:4-5-6 (Big Boy)3-5-75-7-87-8-92-5-93-4-52-3-6There is a very good reason why most every top pro plays cautiously with top pair after the flop. It's not that good a hand in no limit deep stack poker. If you end up playing a big pot with it, you'll get crushed way more often than not. Calling is a deadly weapon and is often a better play than raising or folding. As for David Grey, he is what you would call a complete nit. He plays squeaky tight before the flop in all games.

[akoff 0]

Well I guess that about sums up that topic! Any one care to add something ...

[TheWatchMan 0]

calling with top pair makes all the sense in the world to me.when you raise you throw a lot of money out there with just one pair.however i think the main objective in just calling lies in your opponents hand.if they have nothing and you raise them you just lose them. this seems stupid.if you rais ethem and they play with y ou theyre likely to have top pair beat.so by calling you allow them to continue to play if they have nothing.it does require some more judgement, but esp on high stakes, the players all use a large amount of it.this is espescially true of 1 2 nl and 2 4 nl online, where the players are usually very aggressive with absolutely nothing.players like eli are very aggressive also. and if i wa sin a pot wiwth him id want to give him every opportunity to bluff.

[rogerwilco 0]

You would too if you had a 5 in 5 out of your 7 props:4-5-6 (Big Boy)3-5-75-7-87-8-92-5-93-4-52-3-6

I understood that, and I guess every flop that doesn't hit your prop potentially costs you a lot of money since its more likely to hit one of the other players (I have no idea of the math there hough).I just thought it was interesting, that props are not just bets on the side of the game but occasionally actually influence how someone plays a hand, I never though of it that way.edit: What do you think of High Stakes Poker banning prop-bets next season?

[kwantum 0]

There is a very good reason why most every top pro plays cautiously with top pair after the flop. It's not that good a hand in no limit deep stack poker. If you end up playing a big pot with it, you'll get crushed way more often than not. Calling is a deadly weapon and is often a better play than raising or folding.

I agree with you, Daniel. I figured the stakes and deep stacks make this a more popular play at your level. I guess the more shallow your stack is the more the "raise or fold" thinking applies.Thanks for taking a time out to reply. I thought you played great in HSP Season 2, just some sick sick beats. GL in Season 3 (Did this get filmed yet?) !!