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After Hours Rant


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My roommate and I were havin a conversation tonight when our party died down after the company had left.... when we were cleaning up havin some late nighters, he made a very good point that really sunk in with me....so Im gonna share it with FCP readers for better or for worse.Sometimes you just gotta let it rip with no consequences...speak your mind and not give a flying f**k what anybody thinks. So lets do it.IMO Poker is such a beautiful game. I think we can all agree on that. The strategy, the egos, the essense of the game challenges us all on so many levels in ways unique to our own personalities and abilities. To me I see poker as a true test of competition for every man....whether he is fat, skinny, ugly or whatever. Its a level playing field that every man can compete in regardless of athletic ability or lack thereof. I love poker because it tests my patience, my desire and my fortitude....and you don't even need a G.E.D. to jump in the mix. Its a stage for all competitors..black, white, jewish, muslim, purple, orange who cares where you came from, where you've been or what your bank account is. Poker is the great equalizer.But what really disappoints me (and Im sure many others) is the collective mindset of our 'profession' is that so many of us (I am by no means excluding myself) are so hostile, vindictive, and downright hateful towards the competition. We 'flame', berate, degrade, expose and discredit other players because we as poker players feel we are superior to the competition.On a personal level, I love poker because it challenges me mentally, physically...tests my limits of tolerance, and demands absolute devotion if expected to succeed in the long term.The real issue is that for some reason as COMPETITORS, the nature of the poker player seems to be driven by the need to berate and humiliate other players...at all costs. Be it a bad play, a busted bluff, bad bankroll management or general demeanor. The poker "community" (and I use that term extremely loosely) seems hell bent on bashing and degrading anyone that challenges their invincibility.Its safe to say that 90% (conservative estimate) of every last poker player on Earth seems to think he/she is the 'BEST'...we are all the next (fill in the blank with the WSOP champ of choice), so when someone suggests an idea or an approach to the game which we might not agree with...the knee-jerk reaction always seems to be >> (you are an idiot....horrible play...you are a donkey etc etc) and somehow evolves into a flame war complete with personal insults and venom laced cyber threats.In the venue of message forums IMO this is an aspect of the game that has spiraled out of control. Everyone is so concerned about what limits this person is playing...how much did he lose...is he busto..etc etc etc.Why are poker players such gossip whores ? Why is everyone so consumed with the state of other players bankrolls ? Every day I see a thread on P5's about how Mike Matusow is such a loser/degenerate etc. LOL Good lord its positively pathetic to witness .01/.02 limit NOOBS berating name players and dishing out critique for established name players. Not just Mikey but Prahlad, Jamie Gold, Greg Raymer, Chris Moneymaker and so many other pros that 'made it' . I suppose its just veiled envy, but nevertheless its pathetic that some of (us) are so intent on discrediting others that have had more success than we have.Anyway Im rambling, but I guess I am just disgusted that our 'community' as poker players is so ridden with gossip hounds and discussion of how the other guy f**ked up, or how he is a fluke . Ive been playing poker now for 4 years and I've had to read over and over how Chris Moneymaker is a joke....how Greg Raymer is a joke and how Joe Hachem is a joke and now Jamie Gold is a joke....all from the same collection of players who would auction off their right testicle on Ebay for the same recognition that the aforementioned players enjoy today.This is supposed to be a gentlemans 'sport' , but sadly its full of 'Micons' and other lowlifes who insist on perpetrating story lines of slander, degradation and belittling anyone who isn't in the clique' of the new generation X of poker as we know it. The arrogance of some of the online 'elite' make me want to puke. If we just embraced the spirit of competition and left the personal sh1t at the door this would be a much better poker world for all of us.ok nuff said I could go on but this is long enough....flame away Im sure I am going to get ripped for something :club:

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Pretty interesting. I agree with a lot of it and disagree with a lot of it. I have to go work now so perhaps I will disect this when I get back. One thing I will say for sure is that you are taking message boards and assuming that translates into 90% of the thinking out there. I think this is way off. Most of the people you see on here ARE among the top 20% of poker players (note I said most). I'm not sure the group of guys you hang out with or if you have a local home game, but I AM the best of that bunch. I'm the only one that's read a poker book of any kind. I'm the only one that has played a higher buy in live game or bought into decent sized ring game or tournaments online. I'm the only one that can use half the lingo that is used here and not get looked at funny. If I said string bet, 8 out of 10 people would look at me funny. If I said variance, same story. These are people that give me crap because I have a collection of poker books at home. Amongst those players, perhaps a few meet the reputation you descibed. The rest fall in with an entirely different group, those that are scared to play consistently, high limits, or online, because they don't think they're good enough. None of these are arrogent, none will berate a bad play, all will say they are not very good and get lucky when the win. Most are better players than the group above, but that's because they are tighter and smarter, albeit more afraid.The last group I can think of is the knowledgable but consistent loser. These are the usual online types that load up with $200, sit 1-2, lose it. Maybe they buy back in and maybe they don't, but these are the people with poor bankroll skills, or impatience, that we love to play against in ring games. There is some arrogance or flaming here, but most of these people don't venture near a poker board or read books.As I told a buddy of mine that finished Harrington on Hold em, you are now more knowledgable than 95% of people that don't have the disipline, time, or desire to get better at their game. As you pointed out, a lot that make it here bash or flame, but I think a lot of that is just people having a good time (to them) or trying to be funny (sometimes succesful and sometimes not). Well I guess I had time after all, I guess to sum all of that blabber up, I would say not generalize the entire poker "community" with what you see on these boards. The sample size is simply way too small.

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Another aspect of this issues is the "style of expression" that has become the norm in many poker arenas. People are allowed to scream, swear, berate, etc. in ways that other games/sports do not allow. Over time, that practice of allowing such behavior at the tables "encourages" some young people to take things one step further ... then one step further ... etc. Where will it stop?Note that few of the older players or the women players behave so badly at the tables. I doubt their frustration levels are any less. I am sure that they, too, feel that they are "the best." They simply have learned (or been forced to learn) how to control the expression of their feelings. They simply have more self control in those situations and/or have learned less abrassive forms of self-expression.I am a woman ... who works in a woman's profession. Believe me, the women I work with can be as competitive and ruthless as any poker player I have ever encountered. But those women have learned a different style of self expression. They appear different on the surface and there are some differences in the specifics of their frustrations, etc. -- but the biggest difference between them and the poker players is the way they have learned to express it.It's a culture thing, certainly -- one that some find attractive and others find so unattractive that it turns then off to the game. Perhaps the real question is: Does the poker community want to continue down this cultural path or does the poker community want to make a few changes?llou

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Yea, there's no screaming, swearing, berating, ect, in football, baseball, basketball, hockey or Monopoly.
Oh, of course there is. I know that. But the style of expression that is tolerated on a widespread level is different. If you can't see the differences, then you are not looking very closely.
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Oh, of course there is. I know that. But the style of expression that is tolerated on a widespread level is different. If you can't see the differences, then you are not looking very closely.
I've routinely seen and heard things playing sports and Monopoly that I've never seen in a poker room.You are saying something other than what I think you are, or you're just wrong about this.The things you mention happen far more in physical sports than they ever do in poker.So far as outright fights. In sports you get a time out or penalty, in a poker room you'd get arrested.
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Honestly it's the name of the game.This isn't a team "sport". It's a cut-throat balls to the wall action game with a lot of down time.I think it's the mentality of "it's me against the table" in poker that has driven the mindset of the youthful players to be extremely competitive and exercise horrible table etiquette.Poker sometimes reminds me of tennis. It's a one man game. You against the opponent. Look at Agassi, he was very controversial, with his language and attitude, but was a great.I think many poker players feel that this is the case. It's a competitive one man game. I think it's a leak in most peoples game is there mindset. You may know all the odds in the worlds and numbers run through your head like a calculator but if your steaming or not all there mentaly your just as bad as a donkey with the krablar. (sw) I love the krablar.Most players don't have the mental capability to become better players without pumping themselves up through verbal abuse and exposure of others mistakes. It's not like a team where you can use moral and build up a better team through practice and dicipline.Also, everyone wants to hit it big and become that TV star, poker star. That illusion of greatness blinds players with hate when they are the obstacle in the way of their success.Great topic...More Thoughts?

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You are saying something other than what I think you are, or you're just wrong about this.
I think I AM saying something other than you think I am saying. You are right about that.Communication styles are a tricky thing.I"m not sure what words to use to help you see what I see. I'll have to think about it a while.llou
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wow its 9:30 AM I guess its time to hit the sack :club: (yes I know Im a poker degenerate..heh)looking forward to some intelligent responses to this thread I hope I inspired some good discussion and not mindless flaming cuz I if I have to read anymore flame threads my head is gonna explodeexplodingheadow4.gif(crosses fingers)

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I've routinely seen and heard things playing sports and Monopoly that I've never seen in a poker room.You are saying something other than what I think you are, or you're just wrong about this.The things you mention happen far more in physical sports than they ever do in poker.So far as outright fights. In sports you get a time out or penalty, in a poker room you'd get arrested.
OK Spademan, let me try to say this a different way ....The OP asserts that the poker culture is different from other cultures. I was trying to say that those differences stem NOT ONLY from the fact that poker players necessarily FEEL or THINK differently than the people who play other games, but that the poker cultures allows/encourages people to EXPRESS those feelings and thoughts differently. People who play other games may often feel and think in ways very similar to poker players -- but the culture of those other games is different and therefore the expression of those feelings and thoughts are different.llou
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OK Spademan, let me try to say this a different way ....The OP asserts that the poker culture is different from other cultures. I was trying to say that those differences stem NOT ONLY from the fact that poker players necessarily FEEL or THINK differently than the people who play other games, but that the poker cultures allows/encourages people to EXPRESS those feelings and thoughts differently. People who play other games may often feel and think in ways very similar to poker players -- but the culture of those other games is different and therefore the expression of those feelings and thoughts are different.llou
Little vauge, but, maybe true. =P
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Little vauge, but, maybe true. =P
Maybe I'm being a real wuss for saying this ... but it's nice to be able to have a discussion here that doesn't turn into ugly flaming.Thanks for being open minded and patient with me. :club:
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I have always belived that the are 3 ways of doing things.. the right way, the wrong way, and YOUR OWN WAY.But whatever you do someone will always have somthing to say about it.Im with Ripptyde on this one. If any player worth there right wants to make it big there gonna have to hang there balls out there once in a while. Dont HATE THE PLAYER, HATE THE GAMEPeace out.

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Maybe I'm being a real wuss for saying this ... but it's nice to be able to have a discussion here that doesn't turn into ugly flaming.Thanks for being open minded and patient with me. :club:
What can I say, I'm the warm and fuzzy type.
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I've routinely seen and heard things playing sports and Monopoly that I've never seen in a poker room.You are saying something other than what I think you are, or you're just wrong about this.The things you mention happen far more in physical sports than they ever do in poker.So far as outright fights. In sports you get a time out or penalty, in a poker room you'd get arrested.
Totally agree with Spade here. A lot of other sports take it to a whole other level and often gets physical. Poker is tame compared to soccer, football, baseball, basketball, etc...
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Did Bryan Micon do something disrespectful or arrogant? In the OP he mentioned the "Micons" of the world. Did I miss something.
IMO Micon is a piece of ****His forum NWP thrives on hostility and hatrid, and he seems to encourage it. He enjoys perpetrating rumors, gossip and slamming anyone who leaves the door open for it.No doubt he is a talented player... that is not disputed, but his demeanor and behavior on and off the table is nothing short of disgraceful. The tone of his forum personifies exactly what is wrong with poker.
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IMO Micon is a piece of ****His forum NWP thrives on hostility and hatrid, and he seems to encourage it. He enjoys perpetrating rumors, gossip and slamming anyone who leaves the door open for it.No doubt he is a talented player... that is not disputed, but his demeanor and behavior on and off the table is nothing short of disgraceful. The tone of his forum personifies exactly what is wrong with poker.
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with poker. It's the internet where the "problem" is, if you want to call it that.
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