General Problem With Underbetting

[loopie 0]

that one!

He has a "Do Not Disturb" sign on his door at the moment.

[jimmythang68 0]

i think the massive underbet most of the time is saying " i shouldnt have called your re-raise preflop so now im desperate and if i check youll make a CB bet i cant call so im going to make this pathetic little bet in hopes youll just call so i can somehow luckbox my way into a winning hand on the cheap" i think in general if you were repping a big hand with your preflop raise then go ahead and pop it up. In my experience this little bet is rarely a big hand.

I used to think that to. Lately, i will raise and they will insta push. I think for me it is the situation though. I have been playing in some cheap sit and gos lately and people play any ace and if they hit they are looking to get there money in.It still confuses me because I used to take this as a sign of weakness but I guess since everyone says weak means strong, I am going to ahve to reconsider.

[loopie 0]

I used to think that to. Lately, i will raise and they will insta push. I think for me it is the situation though. I have been playing in some cheap sit and gos lately and people play any ace and if they hit they are looking to get there money in.It still confuses me because I used to take this as a sign of weakness but I guess since everyone says weak means strong, I am going to ahve to reconsider.

The weak means strong scenario is usually related to visual tells of poker players. If a player acts weak, he's strong and so on. Weak and strong bets do not fall into this category. It is difficult to get into a person's head after they make a bet. Are they weak? Are they strong? Are they lazy, and just press minimum bet on their screen? Do they know this is no limit holdem? Are they making a move? Do they know what a move is? etc.......

[timwakefield 68]

I see no where in you topic about pair smaller than aces. And it matters if u got KK or 22. First of all, with a flop of A-J-2 as u posted, pocket kings could beat random hands with a jack in it. And obviously 22 would be a set.

What do you mean you see nothing in my post about a pair smaller than aces? What exactly are we talking about? In my original example I forgot to put a specific hand, but meant to say QQ. Either way the whole point is that I have a pair and an ace flops. Obviously that ace trumps my pair or there wouldn't be a problem.Yes in one example I gave 22 would be a set. So what? You think I'm complaining when I flop a set? More than one poster has responed with, 'Well you could make a set.' Well OBVIOUSLY in this example I don't make a set.Thank you for your responses, though loopie, they were helpful (no sw).

[loopie 0]

Who said my pocket pair was little? All I said was that it was a pair smaller than aces, with an ace on the flop. KK is a little pair now? It doesn't matter whether I have 22 or KK, if my opponent hit their ace I can't win.

This is what I was talking about. You posted this after I said play your small pocket pair differently. In the above quote, u say a pair smaller than aces. Now u say u meant to say queens. All im saying is none of this info. was in the OP.

[tskillz187 0]

The only PP I'd consider not pushing with here are QQ-AA. The other one's I'm pushing all in or folding PF. I'm also pushing all over the top of that weak arse bet. That bet doesn't even register to me, I was going to fire out at the pot anyways, he knows that, so that trash bet means nothing to me.

[Actuary 3]

Tskillz,so, you just hope he doesn't have an Ace?

[loopie 0]

The only PP I'd consider not pushing with here are QQ-AA. The other one's I'm pushing all in or folding PF. I'm also pushing all over the top of that weak arse bet. That bet doesn't even register to me, I was going to fire out at the pot anyways, he knows that, so that trash bet means nothing to me.

So flawed I don't know where to begin. Think I'll go to the casino first....

[tskillz187 0]

Tskillz,so, you just hope he doesn't have an Ace?

Yes. Why would he lead out there? What % of the time are we not continuation betting? If he had an Ace he was confident in he's not min betting right there. If he does and has the A it's not like we were outplayed we were betting the flop anyways and we are so shortstacked that we must commit ourselves.This hand is much tougher if Villain pushes into us on the flop.

[tskillz187 0]

Just calling that flop makes it so likely he is going to bet the turn hard its silly. People put those donk min bets in to get information as well. Donk small bet, oh he just called he has nothing, turn pot. Yay to playing out of position like a donk and making a solid player fold QQ.As basecome said earlier, you treat it as though the bet isn't even there. I think of these small bets as donations.

[loopie 0]

The only PP I'd consider not pushing with here are QQ-AA.

So u would push all ur money in with 4-4 or 5-5? Problem with this thinking is that if u get called, u prob are beat. Plus, with blinds only 600, racing is not ideal yet.

I'm also pushing all over the top of that weak arse bet. That bet doesn't even register to me, I was going to fire out at the pot anyways, he knows that, so that trash bet means nothing to me.

This hand smells so much like an ace-ten or weaker ace. The guy calls 4,000 pre-flop so I think most likely hands are weak ace or pocket pair. If u think he has trash, what hand do u think he has? If he truly has nothing, calling him down will win the pot just as pushing him on the flop. It's not like there are many draws on the flop, and flop texture is a key to playing this hand as well.

As basecome said earlier, you treat it as though the bet isn't even there. I think of these small bets as donations.

No offense, but it sounds like u need to get some more tournaments under ur belt. This strategy will get u knocked out of tournaments often when it wasn't necessary. I believe your aggressive play is more suited for FINAL TABLE or two table play.

[tskillz187 0]

So u would push all ur money in with 4-4 or 5-5? Problem with this thinking is that if u get called, u prob are beat. Plus, with blinds only 600, racing is not ideal yet.This hand smells so much like an ace-ten or weaker ace. The guy calls 4,000 pre-flop so I think most likely hands are weak ace or pocket pair. If u think he has trash, what hand do u think he has. If he truly has nothing, calling him down will win the pot just as pushing him on the flop. It's not like there are many draws on the flop, and flop texture is a key to playing this hand as well.No offense, but it sounds like u need to get some more tournaments under ur belt. This strategy will get u knocked out of tournaments often when it wasn't necessary.

I've final tabled 4 MTTs this week, 3 100's and a 5. I took down the five (typical) and got 10, 10, 9 in the hundreds (sigh). Sorry I dont throw rail me threads up all the time, but if you are going to question my tournament play because you wrongly disagree on this play, then I will tell you my results. I play tourneys successfully. I most certainly didn't say I would push those PPs. I would fold those little ones, as I don't play small pps in the middle stages of tourneys unless I am a big stack. I said if I were to raise I would be pushing with them though, not raising and putting myself in this situation. Then I was like meh, maybe QQ-AA I'd try and build a pot with. The min bet does not scream weak A and if you think it does, then he is scared with it and may in fact fold to our push. You think he limped with A rag, then called a big PF raise with it, then led out small? That a pretty unlikely parlay in my opinion. I put him on a middle PP and he is defensively betting it, hoping that we are scared of the A. If you flat call after his min bet, it shows him you are scared of the A, now you give the power to an OOP player to pot the turn and take the pot off of you. He is the one getting the information on the flop, not you, that turn is an auto pot by him if he is putting out the min bet on the flop and is a strong player.This is not the stage to hit "call, call, call" If he went and cooperated and min bet each time it would be awesome, but I think that is unreasonable, you take the lead away from him on the flop, seeing as how the pot is about 10kish and we have 8kish and have to raise, I don't like putting it to say 4k and then folding after that.

[loopie 0]

I've final tabled 4 MTTs this week, 3 100's and a 5. I took down the five (typical) and got 10, 10, 9 in the hundreds (sigh). Sorry I dont throw rail me threads up all the time, but if you are going to question my tournament play because you wrongly disagree on this play, then I will tell you my results. I play tourneys successfully.

Let me first say I didn't mean to question your tournament success. I was trying to say u needed more tournament experience to see more situations and hands etc.. Because I believe your view to be more of a skillful point of view on your part, rather than coming from experience. You say alot about your opponent, but how would u know this particular player's tendencies?? We are mostly just guessing.

He is the one getting the information on the flop, not you, that turn is an auto pot by him if he is putting out the min bet on the flop and is a strong player.

You say something interesting here:"and is a strong player". Unless we have some kind of read on this player, we don't know what kind of player he really is. But would a strong player limp p/f, call a big raise, then bet min. on the flop. I think u would agree this a novice player or a beginner. And being so, thats what makes a true read that much tougher.

[tskillz187 0]

You say something interesting here:"and is a strong player". Unless we have some kind of read on this player, we don't know what kind of player he really is. But would a strong player limp p/f, call a big raise, then bet min. on the flop. I think u would agree this a novice player or a beginner. And being so, thats what makes a true read that much tougher.

It is just an assumption that he is a strong player, but he has tim covered and he got those chips somehow. In poker I make someone prove he is a bad player instead of prove he is a good player, it's a much safer way to address the situation.If his play is like this now and he has lots of chips I make the assumption that he is an accumulator that is putting on pressure, maybe that is too big an assumption, but with no reads I'm pushing with my QQ. Maybe he flopped AJ and thought he would "trap" our AK here or some garbage, but I think it's more likely he has a mid PP and is defensively betting, while also getting information on our hand. Also, he must not be all that bad if we are disagreeing on the correct move here, maybe the play isn't as novicey as it looks.

[The Nuts 0]

Like every other scenario, it depends.If a guy calls a raise, then it leads out for that little on a rainbow board it tells me that he either has something like AJ, Ax. Maybe even QJ or KJ. Or he has a long shot draw (inside straight draw) and is attempting to put out a blocking bet so he could see fourth street for a cheap.To me, it depends on my reads and other factors. If I have no information on my opponent and I can afford it, then I'm calling down if the bets are weak enough, hoping that I get to showdown just to see his hand no matter what I have.Anyways when this happens, unless I'm convinced that my opponent is on a draw or if I have something big, then I just call. A lot of times, these same people will check on fourth street and nearly any bet will make them fold.But in your case, I'm calling that bet with almost any two cards just to see what villain would do on fourth. If they lead out for a large enough bet, then I'd lean toward folding.

[loopie 0]

It is just an assumption that he is a strong player, but he has tim covered and he got those chips somehow. In poker I make someone prove he is a bad player instead of prove he is a good player, it's a much safer way to address the situation.If his play is like this now and he has lots of chips I make the assumption that he is an accumulator that is putting on pressure, maybe that is too big an assumption, but with no reads I'm pushing with my QQ. Maybe he flopped AJ and thought he would "trap" our AK here or some garbage, but I think it's more likely he has a mid PP and is defensively betting, while also getting information on our hand. Also, he must not be all that bad if we are disagreeing on the correct move here, maybe the play isn't as novicey as it looks.

We just have different philosophy. Like I said before, aggressive play is good at the final table or near it. Since this situation is mid tourney or around, I'd rather wait for a less complex situation to get my money in. If you are following your instincts, this is cool. I have encountered this scenario before, and more times than not the player ace Ax. This is just my experience. Your play is more gutsy and may work out in your long run.