General Problem With Underbetting

[timwakefield 68]

I've run into this a few times lately: the situation is where I raise it up with a pair in late position after 1 or 2 limpers. For this example let's say blinds 300-600, I have 13K, limpers have me covered. I pop it to 4000, first limper calls, everybody else folds. Flop comes AJ2 rainbow. Limper leads out for 600. WTF?????? Can I fold? Wouldn't an informational raise commit me? If I push I think I'm getting called by any ace, and why would this guy lead out if he doesn't have an ace? Can I fold my pair when somebody leads out for like 8% of the pot????

[Sluggo 0]

I like replacing checking with min-betting when first to act.Don't raise for information. Raise because you smell weakness. Tiny bets are often made by insecure people trying to fire an obligatory continuation bet or bluff. Then again, he might be doing to try and get you to commit your chips to the pot. With three streets, he has no reason to get the money in now.

[timwakefield 68]

I like replacing checking with min-betting when first to act.Don't raise for information. Raise because you smell weakness. Tiny bets are often made by insecure people trying to fire an obligatory continuation bet or bluff. Then again, he might be doing to try and get you to commit your chips to the pot. With three streets, he has no reason to get the money in now.

Well it's not a continuation bet, these are situations where I am the aggressor and in position. I guess it could be a weak bluff, but not many people are bad enough to bluff THAT weakly. How do you play QQ (or 99, or KK) in that situation or a similar one?

[hblask 1]

I rely on reads and the general mood of the table. If every hand has somebody throwing out a weak bet like that, and I have *something*, I'll just pretend it's an extremely weak steal attempt, and pretend it didn't happen, and do what I would've done if they had just checked (unless, of course, I would've checked, then I'd probably call). If the table has been tight with very little continuation betting or stealing, then I respect it to the point I believe they hit middle or bottom pair. I see this all the time in both cases, and in your original example, if I have QQ, I'll call and see if they are serious on the turn. If not, bet into it and expect a fold. If they show actual signs of having a hand, just get out and wait for a better chance. With a 99, I might call once and hope to check it down (which happens, as a rough guess, about half the time.) Otherwise, fold the 99.A big part of it is stack sizes, too. A slightly bigger stack, for whom the small bet won't hurt their status but who needs to accumulate chips might try this if they see you as weak (and on a weak table, they may just lump everyone together). The small stack is unlikely to attempt a steal like this, and you should probably just get out, because they are probably aggressively playing top pair. A big stack would be expected to make a meaningful bet if it's a steal attempt, but who knows. When a big stack does this, again, it's very read dependent, and I've been know to either 1) risk the tournament that it's a steal or 2) fold, depending on my mood and my read.I like to portray myself as very weak tight, letting people believe they can steal at will, so I see this bet a lot. It's great for getting some free money with middle pairs from people who would just stay out if they thought you were strong.

[Actuary 3]

it happens so regularly now, as if some book or forum is advising it.donk bets for small amounts.my strategy is too dependent and likely not worth sharing since I can't quantify/defend it******************************

II like to portray myself as very weak tight, letting people believe they can steal at will, so I see this bet a lot. It's great for getting some free money with middle pairs from people who would just stay out if they thought you were strong.

on that note, I get more money from check raising super aggs than any other play. Mostly because I myself don't know how to play the style that bets at every pot, I usually wait for something to move in with against a bet monkey. Works ok in 6 Man STT's. But when I"m card dead, not so much

[loopie 0]

I've run into this a few times lately: the situation is where I raise it up with a pair in late position after 1 or 2 limpers. For this example let's say blinds 300-600, I have 13K, limpers have me covered. I pop it to 4000, first limper calls, everybody else folds. Flop comes AJ2 rainbow. Limper leads out for 600. WTF?????? Can I fold? Wouldn't an informational raise commit me? If I push I think I'm getting called by any ace, and why would this guy lead out if he doesn't have an ace? Can I fold my pair when somebody leads out for like 8% of the pot????

Mr. Wakefield I feel your pain. However, I have seen this scenario many times. I offer u this: Never fold on the flop. Instead, cold call and see what he does on the turn. You have the position, so use it. His action on the turn hopefully will give u some needed information. Plus, ur getting enough odds to maybe peel of your set card. If he bets more or moves all in, folding is a solid play. If he checks, u may wanna move in. If he bets minimum again on turn, a flat call here on the turn is perhaps the play. At this point, and the size of the pot, u may wanna just look him up for future reference.

[Actuary 3]

Mr. Wakefield I feel your pain. However, I have seen this scenario many times. I offer u this: Never fold on the flop. Instead, cold call and see what he does on the turn. You have the position, so use it. His action on the turn hopefully will give u some needed information. Plus, ur getting enough odds to maybe peel of your set card. If he bets more or moves all in, folding is a solid play. If he checks, u may wanna move in. If he bets minimum again on turn, a flat call here on the turn is perhaps the play. At this point, and the size of the pot, u may wanna just look him up for future reference.

could you be more general?

[loopie 0]

could you be more general?

wheres the exact strategy section?

[timwakefield 68]

Well if he's offering me something ridiculous like 10/1 I'll call and try and make a set, then he minbets the turn and the river and sucks 3 BB out of me. Or I'll push when he minbets the turn and he'll call with his weak ace.

[gadjet 11]

wheres the exact strategy section?

[Actuary 3]

Well if he's offering me something ridiculous like 10/1 I'll call and try and make a set, then he minbets the turn and the river and sucks 3 BB out of me. Or I'll push when he minbets the turn and he'll call with his weak ace.

I fold a ton of hands that I"m probably ahead.there's little value in a push here vs riskif the bets become to big, just fold.maybe raise the flop if you have any read.

[loopie 0]

Well if he's offering me something ridiculous like 10/1 I'll call and try and make a set, then he minbets the turn and the river and sucks 3 BB out of me. Or I'll push when he minbets the turn and he'll call with his weak ace.

You put yourself in this situation by raising so much with your little pocket pair. Perhaps consider different pre-flop play and keep out of tricky situations when it's not called for.

[chopper320 0]

I think depending on the player that made that many bet, in this exact situation most of the time I call this bet and see what happens on the turn.Strangely enough, they will continue making these mini bets thru the river and I will just continue to call, never getting too committed but having enough showdown value to make these small calls. It seems like most of the time they do this with a small pp and you will win the pot.HOHII describes this scenario very well and why it's such a bad play for them, which in turn benefits you.

[loopie 0]

I think depending on the player that made that many bet, in this exact situation most of the time I call this bet and see what happens on the turn.Strangely enough, they will continue making these mini bets thru the river and I will just continue to call, never getting too committed but having enough showdown value to make these small calls. It seems like most of the time they do this with a small pp and you will win the pot.HOHII describes this scenario very well and why it's such a bad play for them, which in turn benefits you.

couldnt of said it better myself....

[SavageHenry 0]

i think the massive underbet most of the time is saying " i shouldnt have called your re-raise preflop so now im desperate and if i check youll make a CB bet i cant call so im going to make this pathetic little bet in hopes youll just call so i can somehow luckbox my way into a winning hand on the cheap" i think in general if you were repping a big hand with your preflop raise then go ahead and pop it up. In my experience this little bet is rarely a big hand.

[timwakefield 68]

You put yourself in this situation by raising so much with your little pocket pair. Perhaps consider different pre-flop play and keep out of tricky situations when it's not called for.

Who said my pocket pair was little? All I said was that it was a pair smaller than aces, with an ace on the flop. KK is a little pair now? It doesn't matter whether I have 22 or KK, if my opponent hit their ace I can't win.

[Sain't Town Bo`i 0]

Why Are you Making Small Pot Raises w/ Small Pair's or Even A Big Pair

Who said my pocket pair was little? All I said was that it was a pair smaller than aces, with an ace on the flop. KK is a little pair now? It doesn't matter whether I have 22 or KK, if my opponent hit their ace I can't win.

You Can Win if you Hit Your Set

[Actuary 3]

Why Are you Making Small Pot Raises w/ Small Pair's or Even A Big PairYou Can Win if you Hit Your Set

welcome.Tim, did you hear that?you can hit your set.Are you ok playing that post flop?I had not considered that angle yet.

[timwakefield 68]

Why Are you Making Small Pot Raises w/ Small Pair's or Even A Big Pair

Why are you capitalizing every word? Are you saying that my hypothetical bet was too small? Exactly how much should I raise behind one or two limpers with "Small Pair's (sic) or Even A Big Pair?"

You Can Win if you Hit Your Set

Yep.

[bascomeb 0]

Whenever people greatly underbet I try to treat it as if they had just checked and not let it get to me. Do what you would've done if the player had checked to you on the flop. If you were going to bet half the pot then riase his bet to half the pot.If you were going to check then just call the underbet and see what he does later.

[UncleHoot 0]

couldnt of said it better myself....

I could HAVE said THAT better, though.

[loopie 0]

Who said my pocket pair was little? All I said was that it was a pair smaller than aces, with an ace on the flop. KK is a little pair now? It doesn't matter whether I have 22 or KK, if my opponent hit their ace I can't win.

I see no where in you topic about pair smaller than aces. And it matters if u got KK or 22. First of all, with a flop of A-J-2 as u posted, pocket kings could beat random hands with a jack in it. And obviously 22 would be a set. I stated in my first response about just calling the flop and turn and looking him up on the river. By your big raise pre-flop, ur committed to the hand to continue with his min bets

Mr. Wakefield I feel your pain. However, I have seen this scenario many times. I offer u this: Never fold on the flop. Instead, cold call and see what he does on the turn. You have the position, so use it. His action on the turn hopefully will give u some needed information. Plus, ur getting enough odds to maybe peel of your set card. If he bets more or moves all in, folding is a solid play. If he checks, u may wanna move in. If he bets minimum again on turn, a flat call here on the turn is perhaps the play. At this point, and the size of the pot, u may wanna just look him up for future reference.

Here is my first post, which a few people have basically said the same thing.

I could HAVE said THAT better, though.

So this is your brilliant contribution? WOW. nh, gg, kma, wtgty Hooter, now i feel complete.

[Actuary 3]

bring back the good Loopie, you schizzoe

[loopie 0]

bring back the good Loopie, you schizzoe

the good Loopie? You mean the one who is not sarcastic and/or mean and/or vengeful and/or immature?

[Actuary 3]

the good Loopie? You mean the one who is not sarcastic and/or mean and/or vengeful and/or immature?

that one!