Unbeatable ... If I Could Only Fold Big Slick

[mtdesmoines 2]

My name is Mtdesmoines. And I have a problem with Big Slick. I can't lay it down. Suited or not, I always believe it's the best hand before the flop. I always believe it's the best hand after the flop. If someone invites me to put all my chips in, and I'm holding Big Slick with a flop that has a K or an A in it, I put my chips in without even thinking. It usually results in losing a solid night's work in accumulating chips. I think my Big Slick aggression has only worked once in three months -- I chopped with someone similarly afflicted. We laughed, looked at each other, shook our heads, and went about our way, each knowing the other had a Big Slick problem, but neither of us willing to deal with it. Can someone kick me in the *** whenever I get Big Slick, please?

[Sluggo 0]

Play shorter. Then your valuation of AK will be optimal.Or... stop going broke with a pair. Boards with aces have the most two pairs.

[Actuary 3]

maybe you are forgetting all the times you win with it?

[iggymcfly 0]

maybe you are forgetting all the times you win with it?

Good call. I think AK was more profitable than KK for me for a while. I never understand the people who talk about how overplayed it is all the time.

[mtdesmoines 2]

maybe you are forgetting all the times you win with it?

Well ... lessee ... checking my records, I've lost around a grand on it in 6 weeks. I lose more showdowns with 8,9 (my other weakness), but AK loses me more mobney.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Like sluggo stated, Stop investing all your chips on a pair.You have to realise only hands you're beating are lower pairs.Are you playing a game where people consistantly push with middle pairs or top pairs with weak kickers??Dont be affraid to raise it preflop, and dont be affraid to make continuation bets with it, but be very carefull.TPTK is never the nuts.

[mtdesmoines 2]

1) Like sluggo stated, Stop investing all your chips on a pair.2) You have to realise only hands you're beating are lower pairs.3) Are you playing a game where people consistantly push with middle pairs or top pairs with weak kickers??4) Dont be affraid to raise it preflop, and dont be affraid to make continuation bets with it, but be very carefull.5) TPTK is never the nuts.

Thanks. I think you're right on. Spot on. Totally on. In answer to 3, absolutely -- it's a live casino game and it gets very loose at times. Here's a couple examples: One of them I recall, I raised 8 BB. (Live game). Four callers preflop. Flop is K 9 5. I bet pot plus 25% to get people out. I get a caller. I immediately put him on a suited K5, but I can't quite accept that he called my preflop raise with K5. Turn is a turd. It's early, and I only have one more pot-sized bet left in my stack, so I put it all in. River is turd, cards turn over and villain shows K5. Here's another: I limp UTG with AK. The chronic, and I mean CHRONIC raiser in position #4 makes it $20. I totally put him on a middle pair -- he gets two callers, bet comes around to me; I have $60 left and I go all in to isolate him. Works like a charm. He turns over JJ. Better than I thought ... BUT the flop comes AK3. Turn Q, River: 10. I know BBFIDTS. But I still regret that preflo bet. If I call the 20, and go all in at the flop, I can push him out. So there's $200+ of the $1K i've lost with AK -- all the stories are pretty much the same. It's seems like it's just this hand that I'm over-valuing preflop and I'm not listening to my instincts post-flop. I didn't start doing it until this summer -- and I think it's because I have been so card dead this summer that I get over-excited about a "big hand." Which is why I posted this in the AA style ... the first step in solving a problem is recognizing that you have a problem, right?

[Uppie_ 0]

Thanks. I think you're right on. Spot on. Totally on. In answer to 3, absolutely -- it's a live casino game and it gets very loose at times. Here's a couple examples: One of them I recall, I raised 8 BB. (Live game). Four callers preflop. Flop is K 9 5. I bet pot plus 25% to get people out. I get a caller. I immediately put him on a suited K5, but I can't quite accept that he called my preflop raise with K5. Turn is a turd. It's early, and I only have one more pot-sized bet left in my stack, so I put it all in. River is turd, cards turn over and villain shows K5. Here's another: I limp UTG with AK. The chronic, and I mean CHRONIC raiser in position #4 makes it $20. I totally put him on a middle pair -- he gets two callers, bet comes around to me; I have $60 left and I go all in to isolate him. Works like a charm. He turns over JJ. Better than I thought ... BUT the flop comes AK3. Turn Q, River: 10. I know BBFIDTS. But I still regret that preflo bet. If I call the 20, and go all in at the flop, I can push him out. So there's $200+ of the $1K i've lost with AK -- all the stories are pretty much the same. It's seems like it's just this hand that I'm over-valuing preflop and I'm not listening to my instincts post-flop. I didn't start doing it until this summer -- and I think it's because I have been so card dead this summer that I get over-excited about a "big hand." Which is why I posted this in the AA style ... the first step in solving a problem is recognizing that you have a problem, right?

STOP MAKING POT SIZED BETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! same thing can be accomplished with 2/3 to 3/4 pot bets mean while keeping the pot smaller. Your pot sized bets are growing the pots to a point in which you can't fold AK. Slow down put the guy on a hand and it is only one pair it isn't a terrible play to check call or just place small bets to medium bets to gauge where your at. And if your doing this when your really strong as well as finding out if your good or not you won't be giving up any extra info. Other big thing is pay attention to what hands people call with and what they re raise with. lots of people call with monsters raise with medium to weak holdings. others raise there trips and two pairs on the flop and call with medium to weak hands. That is how your going to be able to get away cheaper or even away from AK.

[No_Neck 0]

Lets say you are in position and you raise, three or four random donkeys calls, the flop comes down 3-4-7 and donkey bets out. a few callers, do you call?lots of people peel and I have found that is a way to lose a lot of money when someone has like A7 and you hit your A on the turn.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Thanks. I think you're right on. Spot on. Totally on. In answer to 3, absolutely -- it's a live casino game and it gets very loose at times. Here's a couple examples: One of them I recall, I raised 8 BB. (Live game). Four callers preflop. Flop is K 9 5. I bet pot plus 25% to get people out. I get a caller. I immediately put him on a suited K5, but I can't quite accept that he called my preflop raise with K5. Turn is a turd. It's early, and I only have one more pot-sized bet left in my stack, so I put it all in. River is turd, cards turn over and villain shows K5. Here's another: I limp UTG with AK. The chronic, and I mean CHRONIC raiser in position #4 makes it $20. I totally put him on a middle pair -- he gets two callers, bet comes around to me; I have $60 left and I go all in to isolate him. Works like a charm. He turns over JJ. Better than I thought ... BUT the flop comes AK3. Turn Q, River: 10. I know BBFIDTS. But I still regret that preflo bet. If I call the 20, and go all in at the flop, I can push him out. So there's $200+ of the $1K i've lost with AK -- all the stories are pretty much the same. It's seems like it's just this hand that I'm over-valuing preflop and I'm not listening to my instincts post-flop. I didn't start doing it until this summer -- and I think it's because I have been so card dead this summer that I get over-excited about a "big hand." Which is why I posted this in the AA style ... the first step in solving a problem is recognizing that you have a problem, right?

I dont know if you're being sarcastic or not...anyways, I've played these types of games, many many times. You find this exact example in Vegas at ceasars and the Wynn and alladin etc.. all kinds of loose NL plays.A lot of times people go to a live cash game expecting to kick ***, but yet they still sit with money they are comfortable to loose.So keep that in mind, people are ready to gamble. I like raising preflop with AK, always!, at a 1/2 game i'd raise to 10 expecting 8 to be standard.You want to make your flop bets count.You bet too much and you price yourself in, you bet too little and you dont gain respect or info.Lets go with an exampleseat 1 - Rich guyseat 2 - Loose donkeyseat 3 - regular joeseat 4 - tag kidseat 5 - old ladyseat 6 - agressive good playerseat 7 - YOUseat 8 - another young guy trying to run the showseat 9 - captain chatty always limps, just tehre for fun.Blinds 1/2 cash gameYou're late position with AK. 2 limps and it gets to you.we raise to 10., seat 8 and seat 9 fold.SB - rich guy, folds.BB loose donkey calls.regular Joe calls, old lady folds.Pot $33.00flop is K, 9, 5 rainbowcheck, check, our turn.rihgt here i fire out for 25. I've invested 35.00 now total. At a 1/2 game i probably started with 200.00 so 35 isnt much for a potential winning hand.BB calls., and so does regular Joe., we have to assume something is up nowThe BB call can be anything, top pair, middle pair, maybe a straight draw, maybe even tryig to chase an Ace. (this is where our knowledge of him re-raising would come into play. If we know him to re-raise with decent hands)regular Joe could have anything also.Sometimes people will play crazy hands just because they "get a feeling" especially in live games.My advice now is to not worry too much about BB, but rather about average Joe.the turn is a brick 2, it checks to us again.the pot is now 108.00 a pot sized bet here gives us a total of over 140 invested and thus, committed to this.We should assume that with TPTK, we only get called for our stack by hands that beat us.I'm more inclined to bet about half the pot here. Making our bets larger on every street, but not large enough to committ us. a 60.00 bet on the turn will extract all the info we need.We also have position this time, and with the way the board is shaped up, it doesnt look like many drawing hands.The 60.00 bet has brought us to just over 90.00. BB folds and regular joe calls.river is a J, joe checks, i check behind. at this point it doesnt look like we have much FE, He's called us down the entire way.He shows K,9 and wins the pot.I know this is simply an example, but the point is, to extract enouhg info without risking too much, or leting loose players play for cheap.The idea of Pot sized bets gets confused with a correct play all the time. Its good to price people out but, not so good on our stacks when we're already proven to be beat

[gadjet 11]

Thanks. I think you're right on. Spot on. Totally on. In answer to 3, absolutely -- it's a live casino game and it gets very loose at times. Here's a couple examples: One of them I recall, I raised 8 BB. (Live game). Four callers preflop. Flop is K 9 5. I bet pot plus 25% to get people out. I get a caller. I immediately put him on a suited K5, but I can't quite accept that he called my preflop raise with K5. Turn is a turd. It's early, and I only have one more pot-sized bet left in my stack, so I put it all in. River is turd, cards turn over and villain shows K5. Here's another: I limp UTG with AK. The chronic, and I mean CHRONIC raiser in position #4 makes it $20. I totally put him on a middle pair -- he gets two callers, bet comes around to me; I have $60 left and I go all in to isolate him. Works like a charm. He turns over JJ. Better than I thought ... BUT the flop comes AK3. Turn Q, River: 10. I know BBFIDTS. But I still regret that preflo bet. If I call the 20, and go all in at the flop, I can push him out. So there's $200+ of the $1K i've lost with AK -- all the stories are pretty much the same. It's seems like it's just this hand that I'm over-valuing preflop and I'm not listening to my instincts post-flop. I didn't start doing it until this summer -- and I think it's because I have been so card dead this summer that I get over-excited about a "big hand." Which is why I posted this in the AA style ... the first step in solving a problem is recognizing that you have a problem, right?

Example 1:I'd say if he's donk enough to call a raise of 8BB's with K5 he'll probably play the same on a flop of K96... and you win. However, I agree that you didn't need to make the pot so big...Example 2: Worked exactly as planned until his runner runner straight came... the thing to note here is that you are pushing with AK as a long term play, for a decent amount of money... if this is your approach (which staticstically is fine) you have to expect bigger swings cause you're creating bigger pots... you are however making a good play here.So on these two examples alone I think you're too result oriented... if you win the second pot you're more than doubling up and all the sudden you're not complaining here...So, definately take Royal's advice on playing AK, but you shouldn't be looking at results you should be looking at your play...

[Royal_Tour 0]

Example 1:I'd say if he's donk enough to call a raise of 8BB's with K5 he'll probably play the same on a flop of K96... and you win. However, I agree that you didn't need to make the pot so big...Example 2: Worked exactly as planned until his runner runner straight came... the thing to note here is that you are pushing with AK as a long term play, for a decent amount of money... if this is your approach (which staticstically is fine) you have to expect bigger swings cause you're creating bigger pots... you are however making a good play here.So on these two examples alone I think you're too result oriented... if you win the second pot you're more than doubling up and all the sudden you're not complaining here...So, definately take Royal's advice on playing AK, but you shouldn't be looking at results you should be looking at your play...

Thanks, i agree with everything you've said, except he was behind in example 2.techincally a coin flip but he was still behind, so he loses that situation more often

[gadjet 11]

Thanks, i agree with everything you've said, except he was behind in example 2.techincally a coin flip but he was still behind, so he loses that situation more often

OP limped, raiser raised to $20, got two callers, Pot = $60+his limp+blinds... don't know the blinds amount so can't have exact amounts...OP pushed for $60 more, so that's a $40 call from the raiser and two folds adding $40 dead to the pot plus his double up of $60+BB, giving him more than enough pot odds to put him ahead long term... I know what you're saying about being behind, but I'm saying that if he's chosing to push based on the potodds compared to his percentages than this was a good spot to do it and it is +EV long term... but he should expect bigger swings...EDIT: Reread my first post... agreed I should've said... It is a good play PROVIDED you are getting more than a double up to give you odds to call... in this case he was.

[Royal_Tour 0]

OP limped, raiser raised to $20, got two callers, Pot = $60+his limp+blinds... don't know the blinds amount so can't have exact amounts...OP pushed for $60 more, so that's a $40 call from the raiser and two folds adding $40 dead to the pot plus his double up of $60+BB, giving him more than enough pot odds to put him ahead long term... I know what you're saying about being behind, but I'm saying that if he's chosing to push based on the potodds compared to his percentages than this was a good spot to do it and it is +EV long term... but he should expect bigger swings...EDIT: Reread my first post... agreed I should've said... It is a good play PROVIDED you are getting more than a double up to give you odds to call... in this case he was.

Ya the way he played it was fine. I was just saying he shouldnt really expect to win this hand all the time with AK here/p.s., i like uur new avatar

[gadjet 11]

Ya the way he played it was fine. I was just saying he shouldnt really expect to win this hand all the time with AK here/p.s., i like uur new avatar

Ha thanks, he rules... but he's no Elisha Cuthburt Speaking of which, I saw an old epimisode of Popular Mechanics for Kids on the Knowledge network with her on couple days ago and was laughin and thinkin about you... P.S. We're always sayin the same damn thing, you've just said them 8000 more times than me

[Royal_Tour 0]

Ha thanks, he rules... but he's no Elisha Cuthburt Speaking of which, I saw an old epimisode of Popular Mechanics for Kids on the Knowledge network with her on couple days ago and was laughin and thinkin about you... P.S. We're always sayin the same damn thing, you've just said them 8000 more times than me

lol, i think of you too.. ya, i knew she'd be hot since day 1. and yes, I know, great minds think alike, except when they are bored they go on and on such as myself

[gadjet 11]

lol, i think of you too.. ya, i knew she'd be hot since day 1. and yes, I know, great minds think alike, except when they are bored they go on and on such as myself

i miss your laugh... I miss your smell ... when I think this whole thing is over you and I should get an apartment together....Yeah... think about you and what a perv you are for having the hots for a 13 yr old... ... yeah I know she's older now... but if I'm bored enough to stop and watch Popular Mechanics for Kids... I'm bored enough to play 6 degrees of separation between Elisha Cuthburt and you bein a perv...Now who's goin on and on...? Very long +1

[Actuary 3]

Well ... lessee ... checking my records, I've lost around a grand on it in 6 weeks. I lose more showdowns with 8,9 (my other weakness), but AK loses me more mobney.

6 weeks ?wow.With that trend I'd really be reconsidering how to play.You've likely got so much more experience in NL than I, yet, you think $1000 in 6 weeks with a high volitility hand like AK is disastorous?I'm also amazzed by the uncanny way you put villlains on K5s and mid pair. All you live guys are so good at that. You had some bad beats. where's Smash when I need him.

[Zach6668 513]

6 weeks ?wow.With that trend I'd really be reconsidering how to play.You've likely got so much more experience in NL than I, yet, you think $1000 in 6 weeks with a high volitility hand like AK is disastorous?I'm also amazzed by the uncanny way you put villlains on K5s and mid pair. All you live guys are so good at that. You had some bad beats. where's Smash when I need him.

You can't pinpoint an opponents' exact hand yet?You've got a long way to go, sir.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

You can't pinpoint an opponents' exact hand yet?You've got a long way to go, sir.- Zach

tru dat. homes.

[mtdesmoines 2]

6 weeks ?wow.With that trend I'd really be reconsidering how to play.You've likely got so much more experience in NL than I, yet, you think $1000 in 6 weeks with a high volitility hand like AK is disastorous?I'm also amazzed by the uncanny way you put villlains on K5s and mid pair. All you live guys are so good at that. You had some bad beats. where's Smash when I need him.

My trend is win $600-700, lose $300. Win $500, lose $250. I'm doing OK overall. My original point, the title of the thread, is that if I could learn to play/fold AK, I'd be doing much better.

[Actuary 3]

My trend is win $600-700, lose $300. Win $500, lose $250. I'm doing OK overall. My original point, the title of the thread, is that if I could learn to play/fold AK, I'd be doing much better.

I don't think 6 weeks is much evidence.AK is a highly volitile hand.You will win some big pots, lots of small ones, and lose some big ones.Your examples were of the bad beat variety, or just bad luckVariance is enormous in poker.If you were doww $1000 with 78s in a comparable buy in game I'd be concerened

[iggymcfly 0]

I'm not saying this applies to OP necessarily, but a lot of these people that "have such a hard time" with hands like AK and AA seem to be scared to death of them. Like if they get outdrawn, a vortex will open in the poker table that swallows their soul or something.Why do we need to overbet the pot on the flop with TPTK on a board of K95? Anyone who's behind is likely drawing to three outs at this point, maybe 5 if they're calling with middle pair. Where's the urgency here? Why not just bet 2/3 of the pot and get calls from the hands that we're beating. Maybe you're losing every time you go to showdown because you're blowing everyone out of the pot you might have beat with your unnecessarily massive bet. Remember, win money not pots.

[mtdesmoines 2]

I'm not saying this applies to OP necessarily, but a lot of these people that "have such a hard time" with hands like AK and AA seem to be scared to death of them. Like if they get outdrawn, a vortex will open in the poker table that swallows their soul or something.

I have seen the vortex. Trust me, you don't want to go there.

[loopie 0]

My name is Mtdesmoines. And I have a problem with Big Slick. I can't lay it down. Suited or not, I always believe it's the best hand before the flop. I always believe it's the best hand after the flop. If someone invites me to put all my chips in, and I'm holding Big Slick with a flop that has a K or an A in it, I put my chips in without even thinking. It usually results in losing a solid night's work in accumulating chips. I think my Big Slick aggression has only worked once in three months -- I chopped with someone similarly afflicted. We laughed, looked at each other, shook our heads, and went about our way, each knowing the other had a Big Slick problem, but neither of us willing to deal with it. Can someone kick me in the *** whenever I get Big Slick, please?

You are not alone. Several top pros have difficulty playing big slick and play it differently. I remember a story when Phil Ivey backed someone in the 5 Diamond or Star Bellagio tourney a few years ago. Iveys only request was for the guy to never fold AK pre-flop, no matter how many raises he faced. The guy made the final table.People tend to give up on AK when they consistently lose with it and then play it different. When they play it less aggressive or not at all they don't maximize when it wins. Consistency is a big key and to ride out the bad streaks.