Thought I Made Right Laydown...

[ROGUE06 0]

PokerStars Game #6003410709: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/08/21 - 19:52:28 (ET)Table 'Scythia' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: carolinakyle ($48.75 in chips) Seat 3: PhilWill2004 ($60.35 in chips) Seat 4: Poly_Baller ($144.90 in chips) Seat 5: ROGUE06 ($44.50 in chips) Seat 6: Ausscheider ($60.60 in chips) PhilWill2004: posts small blind $0.25Poly_Baller: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to ROGUE06 [Ts Kc]ROGUE06: raises $1 to $1.50Ausscheider: calls $1.50carolinakyle: folds PhilWill2004: folds Poly_Baller: folds *** FLOP *** [Ks 7s Td]The 12 Avoid joins the table at seat #2 ROGUE06: checks Ausscheider: bets $2ROGUE06: calls $2*** TURN *** [Ks 7s Td] [2h]ROGUE06: checks Ausscheider: bets $5ROGUE06: raises $10 to $15Ausscheider: calls $10*** RIVER *** [Ks 7s Td 2h] [As]ROGUE06: bets $5Ausscheider: raises $21 to $26ROGUE06 said, "u hit flush?"ROGUE06 said, "u caught"ROGUE06: folds Ausscheider collected $45.75 from potAusscheider: shows [Js Jh] (a pair of Jacks)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $47.75 | Rake $2 Board [Ks 7s Td 2h As]Seat 1: carolinakyle (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: PhilWill2004 (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 4: Poly_Baller (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 5: ROGUE06 folded on the RiverSeat 6: Ausscheider collected ($45.75)I thought I played the hand perfectly up until the final call on the river. This guy has been catching rivers on me all day. I think check and calling on the flop was a good play. Checking on the turn and reraising from $5 to $15 wasn't a bad play IMO. That last card, the ace totally put doubt all over my mind. I was puttin him on the flush but I also kept in mind he could have QJ making him open ended the whole way and calling down. Or maybe he had A10 or A7 cuz I highly doubt he had AK. Overall I think I played the hand completely perfect up until the final call. I thought I trapped him perfectly but that river, the ace of spades was a complete scare card that put soo many hands out there not to mention, when I bet on the river, he insta-pushed his stack......which really had me going........I need to hear some imput.

[trystero 0]

$5 bet on river?

[Naismith 0]

PokerStars Game #6003410709: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/08/21 - 19:52:28 (ET)Table 'Scythia' 6-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: carolinakyle ($48.75 in chips) Seat 3: PhilWill2004 ($60.35 in chips) Seat 4: Poly_Baller ($144.90 in chips) Seat 5: ROGUE06 ($44.50 in chips) Seat 6: Ausscheider ($60.60 in chips) PhilWill2004: posts small blind $0.25Poly_Baller: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to ROGUE06 [Ts Kc]ROGUE06: raises $1 to $1.50Ausscheider: calls $1.50carolinakyle: folds PhilWill2004: folds Poly_Baller: folds *** FLOP *** [Ks 7s Td]The 12 Avoid joins the table at seat #2 ROGUE06: checks Ausscheider: bets $2ROGUE06: calls $2*** TURN *** [Ks 7s Td] [2h]ROGUE06: checks Ausscheider: bets $5ROGUE06: raises $10 to $15Ausscheider: calls $10*** RIVER *** [Ks 7s Td 2h] [As]ROGUE06: bets $5Ausscheider: raises $21 to $26ROGUE06 said, "u hit flush?"ROGUE06 said, "u caught"ROGUE06: folds Ausscheider collected $45.75 from potAusscheider: shows [Js Jh] (a pair of Jacks)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $47.75 | Rake $2 Board [Ks 7s Td 2h As]Seat 1: carolinakyle (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: PhilWill2004 (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 4: Poly_Baller (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 5: ROGUE06 folded on the RiverSeat 6: Ausscheider collected ($45.75)I thought I played the hand perfectly up until the final call on the river. This guy has been catching rivers on me all day. I think check and calling on the flop was a good play. Checking on the turn and reraising from $5 to $15 wasn't a bad play IMO. That last card, the ace totally put doubt all over my mind. I was puttin him on the flush but I also kept in mind he could have QJ making him open ended the whole way and calling down. Or maybe he had A10 or A7 cuz I highly doubt he had AK. Overall I think I played the hand completely perfect up until the final call. I thought I trapped him perfectly but that river, the ace of spades was a complete scare card that put soo many hands out there not to mention, when I bet on the river, he insta-pushed his stack......which really had me going........I need to hear some imput.

Bet the flop. Bet the turn. River is read dependent.You will never, ever, ever, ever trap a good player by raising preflop and then check-calling.You're giving away the strength of your hand by check-calling.In any case, this guy fell for it and you got the check-raise in on the turn. The river was certainly the scariest card in the deck for you, but if you're not planning on calling, don't waste the five dollar bet. My dog would've raised you on the river when you bet so scared. It was pretty much guaranteed that you were getting raised once you put out that bet. Folding the river certainly is dependent on your read of the player, but "this guy has been catching me on the river all day" is not a good reason to fold. Bet the flop, bet the turn and this hand probably works out differently.I think I need to say this again...when you raise preflop, especially out of position (and with a bad hand), you must must must bet the flop when you hit it.Also, bet the flop!

[Gooser 0]

raising utg wiht k10? mehhhhhhhh

[CrazyJoe 0]

$5 bet on river?

it made me throw up a little. that river line is sooooooo bad.

[wsox8 10]

that river bet is way too small. There is already $37.75 in the pot (If I added correctly) so the $5 bet is way too small. I would bet about $20 into it or check and call depending what he does. But I'm kinda clueless here.ALSO I don't like the raise with a hand like K-10. I would have folded it.

[PimpRock 0]

5 handed I can stomach the raise pre flop so long as its a decent amount (slightly more than 1.50). 2 x BB and waaaaay too many hands are gonna come along for the ride at this level and then your playing a weak hand oop. The flop is draw heavy so to me, 2 bucks is not enough. You bet 3/4 or the pot and your building a tasty pot. Like the turn play, no problems there. I think these fellas said everything they need to about the 5. For me... half the pot, then if he has the balls to raise you out of it then credit where its due but I think you were asking to be bluffed.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I don't mind pre-flop as we're 5-handed. Personally, I'm preferring a raise to something like $2 at this level, but if you're confident in your post-flop play 3xBB is fine.I really really hate the flop check unless this guy is an overaggressive bluff machine or you've shown a willingness to not always c-bet and have someone take the pot away. In such a case, a check is okay, but with this very draw heavy board, you need to put some pressure back on him...and keep it on.I also agree with the others that the river bet is pretty awful. I guess you're trying to make a blocker bet? If so, it's way too small.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Preflop is debateable; not my fav. but not the worst thing I've seen. Dunno if you're playing Lag.Bet the flop. Bet the flop. Bet the flop. K-x-10 with a flush draw? Get some money here.C/r is good, regardless of how you got to the turn.Bet on the river an amount you would call. Andy Bloch had a good article sent out to FTP players today; if you didn't get it ask me and I will forward it to you. Bet an amount where if you get raised, you know you'll be beat. However, regardless of the fact that the villain should've chucked JJ on the turn, it was a good spot to bluff at you when there was little chance you were on a flush draw.

[oldirtyharry 0]

Id likely checck/call this river

[darkrider88 0]

I defintely don't like preflop. I'm a tighter player by nature, but even if you are playing lag it is still bad b/c it's a complete trap hand. I'm raising 7-6s utg before K-10, b/c when you flop your k or 10, you are either gonna win a small pot or lose a big one. Also, the raise is just too small pf.More importantly, on the river, you are getting about 2.25-1 on your call, which is very nice. I think the way you played it made a bluff really possible, and you are basicially forced to call w/ those odds.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I think it's bizarre that you guys are so opposed to raising KTs five-handed. Yeah, it's a "trap" hand...that's why you don't call raises with it and play it cautiously with a pair...but it can easily be the best hand here pre-flop. (30% equity against 4 random hands)

[TS Clark 0]

I don't mind pre-flop as we're 5-handed. Personally, I'm preferring a raise to something like $2 at this level, but if you're confident in your post-flop play 3xBB is fine.I really really hate the flop check unless this guy is an overaggressive bluff machine or you've shown a willingness to not always c-bet and have someone take the pot away. In such a case, a check is okay, but with this very draw heavy board, you need to put some pressure back on him...and keep it on.I also agree with the others that the river bet is pretty awful. I guess you're trying to make a blocker bet? If so, it's way too small.

I agree with all of this above.

[Gus_Herbert 0]

You really played this pot poorly.I don't mind the raise with K 10, I love K10 and if your post flop skills are sufficient you should be able to play marginal holdings such as this well.But yes why did check the flop?! Usually when someone raises preflop and then checks the flop it generally means a very big hand. Nevertheless you should never slowplay a flop like K 10 7 because there is so many straight draws out there:98, JQ, even AQ , J 9. and there was also a flush draw!! wow geez.Also when the guy bet $2.00 on the flop. That was a pretty weak bet, to me that sounded like a feeler bet (and it was because he was seeing if his Jacks were good)Also check-raising the turn was a foolish play and it gave away the strength of your hand. You always want to be the aggressor in No limit Holdem.you should be betting the flop, betting the turn and betting the river. If he look s you up with Jacks, you've raked a nice pot off of his mistakes.Now lets talk about your river bet.YOU CHECK-RAISE TO $15, AND THEN BET $5.00 ON THE RIVER?!! that screams weakness.Unless your doing that to try to trap him to raise you (your planning on calling)you should be making a pot sized bet, or a check call.I don't mind either. The check call is good for two reasons:one if he made a flush or a straight which didn't seem likelt because of his flop bet, (you would only lose the minimum if you check called.)Also the check on the river gives your opponent a chance to bluff you, and then you call him down and take a good potHowever your $5.00 bet was good for a reason that you never even thought of.It screamed weakness and he raised u and took down the pot. However why don't u try making a bet like that sometime on the river when u have a MONSTER HAND. Then when your opponent comes over the top of you you call his all in or raise all in. You'll be surprised how well it works agaisnt beginning and intermediate players.One more note. YOU SHOULD HAVE CONSIDERED YOUR OPPONENTS RAISE!you bet $5 and he raised $21 to $26! wow what a reckless raise amount. That just screams thoughtless, gutless bluff, he probably raised you really quickly too. Even if he didn't the amount just doesn't make sense, and 5 times your bet??? it's a little much (reasonable but still ) you should have called the river bet, because the way that pot was played by both of you was just too damn fishy. NOT A PERFECTLY PLAYED POT by either. But you can learn upon it.Keep on playing K 10 too :)Gus

[darkrider88 0]

I think it's bizarre that you guys are so opposed to raising KTs five-handed. Yeah, it's a "trap" hand...that's why you don't call raises with it and play it cautiously with a pair...but it can easily be the best hand here pre-flop. (30% equity against 4 random hands)

Cobalt: I'm just trying to learn the game, and i respect your opinions a lot, so this isn't me trying to argue w/ u. I'm just curious as to why you like the raise there. If someone calls you are going to be OOP w/ a medium strength hand (except if the blinds call, then we'll be in position). What i don't like more is the small raise, since we are more than likely gonna be called. When we do flop a pair, either there will be little resistance and we win the pot, or we get resistance, and now don't know where we stand, since we could be crushed. To sum this long post up, what would you do if pf action was the same, flop is 10-7-3, you bet, and then are raised. or if the flop is K-Q-5, and your bet flop is called, what do you do on the turn (considering there is a blank). so many tough decisions? btw anyone can reply, not just cobalt. thanx

[ROGUE06 0]

I do agree the $5 bet on the river was terrible. I should have check-called the river or bet atleast $10 so I would have to insta call any raise. I only raised UTG with K10 because tho the table was loose, the few hands before the one I posted, there were no callers to the preflop raise. I had been playing TAG poker the whole time but with this hand and a few other hands, I decided to mix it up raising with K10. I also trust my post flop reads pretty well. I admit I played this hand poorly at the river, but showing no strength by check calling the flop and trapping him was the right play IMO. Also I had good reads on that opponent before.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Cobalt: I'm just trying to learn the game, and i respect your opinions a lot, so this isn't me trying to argue w/ u. I'm just curious as to why you like the raise there. If someone calls you are going to be OOP w/ a medium strength hand (except if the blinds call, then we'll be in position). What i don't like more is the small raise, since we are more than likely gonna be called. When we do flop a pair, either there will be little resistance and we win the pot, or we get resistance, and now don't know where we stand, since we could be crushed. To sum this long post up, what would you do if pf action was the same, flop is 10-7-3, you bet, and then are raised. or if the flop is K-Q-5, and your bet flop is called, what do you do on the turn (considering there is a blank). so many tough decisions? btw anyone can reply, not just cobalt. thanx

When we're playing 5-handed, we have four players behind us. If we're called (and there's plenty of times when our raise will just take the pot down), two potential callers will be in position, two will not. That's a pretty decent ratio. At a full table, we'd certainly be in a much more precarious spot playing KTs in "early position", because there are a host of potential callers that would have position on us.Post-flop play is going to depend a lot upon your read of the player. If you know the guy's a total rock and he raises you or calls the flop when you've just got a pair, you're obviously going to proceed with caution (possibly throwing the hand away...possibly playing on depending on read/odds). Believe me, I don't like playing out of position, but when you're playing five-handed, KTs is a very decent hand. If you expand hole-card range in PokerStove, it's actually in the top 7.4% of hands.As for the pre-flop bet-sizing, there are a number of pros that prefer raising 2-2.5x the BB. The general thinking is that the better your post-flop edge, the smaller you can get away with raising pre-flop. For most TAGs at this level, 3.5-4x is probably better, but I'm currently in the 3-3.5x camp. That said, I'll certainly change that up based on opponents.

[tallytownFSU 0]

raising utg wiht k10? mehhhhhhhh

I was gonna agree with the above..........until

I think it's bizarre that you guys are so opposed to raising KTs five-handed. Yeah, it's a "trap" hand...that's why you don't call raises with it and play it cautiously with a pair...but it can easily be the best hand here pre-flop. (30% equity against 4 random hands)

Touche Cobalt.

[darkrider88 0]

Alright Cobalt i gotchya. The sense I'm getting is that it isn't a move for people who aren't as adept at postflop play, but if your confident in playing deep in a hand then its a fine raise. Thanx.

[Naismith 0]

Why does everyone keep referring to this hand as KTs? The OP wasn't suited. There's a big difference.To the OP, I think you played this hand pretty poorly all around. I think you need to find a safer spot to trap, but if you're going to trap, follow through with it.

[jjgoldy5 0]

check/call this river (+EV)If you make a big bet, he is folding most hands that you beat, and coming over the top with hands that you don't beat and bluffs....If you check call, you can induce bluffs / get hand to showdown cheaper if you are behind.

[mrdannyg 274]

Why does everyone keep referring to this hand as KTs? The OP wasn't suited. There's a big difference.To the OP, I think you played this hand pretty poorly all around. I think you need to find a safer spot to trap, but if you're going to trap, follow through with it.

it was double-suited

[7s7c 0]

Check/Call the river. I played a not so similar example but kinda hand last night where if I had made a small bet on the end like in the hand you posted I would have probably gotten killed with a re-raise as you saw. Sometimes those check/calls on the river are the optimal play if you think you can win a showdown with it. 2 pair I'm certainly showing down in that spot.Full Tilt Poker Game #925389754: Table Winery Ridge - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:40:58 ET - 2006/08/22Seat 2: Caberdog ($40), is sitting outSeat 3: Jack7Off ($50)Seat 4: madktd ($47.80)Seat 5: cribb23 ($68.80)Seat 6: PeterPrucha ($18)Seat 7: Chad Lovejoy ($32.50)Seat 8: jalba216 ($53.55)Seat 9: tokingking ($30)tokingking posts the small blind of $0.50Jack7Off posts the big blind of $1The button is in seat #8*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Jack7Off [6h Qd]Caberdog has returnedmadktd calls $1cribb23 foldsPeterPrucha foldsChad Lovejoy foldsjalba216 calls $1tokingking calls $0.50Jack7Off checks*** FLOP *** [6c 4s Tc]tokingking checksJack7Off bets $3madktd foldsjalba216 calls $3tokingking folds*** TURN *** [6c 4s Tc] [3h]Jack7Off bets $5jalba216 calls $5*** RIVER *** [6c 4s Tc 3h] [5s]Jack7Off checksjalba216 bets $13Jack7Off calls $13*** SHOW DOWN ***jalba216 shows [Ad 4h] (a pair of Fours)Jack7Off shows [6h Qd] (a pair of Sixes)Jack7Off wins the pot ($43.70) with a pair of Sixes*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $46 | Rake $2.30Board: [6c 4s Tc 3h 5s]Seat 2: Caberdog is sitting outSeat 3: Jack7Off (big blind) showed [6h Qd] and won ($43.70) with a pair of SixesSeat 4: madktd folded on the FlopSeat 5: cribb23 didn't bet (folded)Seat 6: PeterPrucha didn't bet (folded)Seat 7: Chad Lovejoy didn't bet (folded)Seat 8: jalba216 (button) showed [Ad 4h] and lost with a pair of FoursSeat 9: tokingking (small blind) folded on the Flop

[CobaltBlue 662]

Why does everyone keep referring to this hand as KTs? The OP wasn't suited. There's a big difference..

I think the introduction of that error was my fault, and you're certainly right. Being unsuited makes the decision to raise slightly more marginal. That said, I'm still not opposed to it.

[Naismith 0]

I think the introduction of that error was my fault, and you're certainly right. Being unsuited makes the decision to raise slightly more marginal. That said, I'm still not opposed to it.

I'm not opposed to raising with it UTG, either, but I'm not opposed to raising with many hands from many positions. :)In any case, can we all agree that this was not the hand to slow play?