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Quiz Question #20


Pot Limit Omaha  

144 members have voted

  1. 1. What would you do?

    • Call
      76
    • Fold
      68


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Fold. While you have a shot at two flushes, it's a low end. Even if both other players have aces, then they have a shot at the nut flush, if of course one of their other hole cards is a club or spade. The straight is almost as bad. If you get a wheel draw, you're up a creek because A) It can bring an Ace, likely making trips for one of your opponents, and B)if a 2 doesn't fall, you have 2 pair, and are probably already beaten. Not to mention the chances that your opponents have overcards galore. What if the flop's 7-9-10? You're hurting, and you've just thrown 3 grand away.You raised, you got reraised twice, it's time to get out cheap. Maybe I'd gamble in a tourney, but not in a cash game. That's how people go broke.

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There is NO WAY i call here.Sure, pot odds might add up for a call. But Pot odds are there as a guide - they DO NOT dictate definetively what you should and should not do!Why not just fold knowing you are drawing slim and save the money to play another hand.Hell, i dont want to gamble off most of my stack because im 25% to win the hand and im getting the correct odds.You can't assume your suits are outs for you either, infact - i'd go ahead and assume they are not outs.By calling this raise, the only way you win this pot is to get lucky and hit the board, hard! Again, no way i call here
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.In a cash game, if pot odds are better than than your odds of winning the hand you MUST call...because, simply put, if you do that every time over a set number of hands you profit.The problem most people run into is they make up scenarios in their heads where they do have the pot odds, when they really don't, and they go out of their way to justify a call based on pot odds, when their chances of winning are actually much lower than they conclude....BUT, if you accurately determine that your price is better than your odds, you have to call if you like money.For example, let's say we are betting on the roll of a die...you are 5:1 to guess the correct roll....your odds of guessing right are only 17%.But, if you have to bet $1 and I say I'll give you $6 every time you're right, you'd be a complete moron to turn down that deal.Because over 1200 rolls of the die you make a profit....200 times you win $6...1000 times you pay $1...you make $200.It doesn't matter how bad your odds of winning are as long as the price you pay is better.So, it comes down to you calling $3000 to win $7700 ($400 of each which is a sidepot)....so, do you have better than a 28% chance of winning here?Yes, you do.Even if you are against KcKsQsJc and AcAsTsTc you are 32% to win...and I have to think that that is pretty close to your worst-case scenario against their probably holdings. I have to think that against a reasonable range of hands for two tight players you are much better than 30% to win, so a call is mandatory...if you like money.btw - I think this is a clear fold in O8....I also likely fold in an Omaha tournament, even if the price is slightly in your favour, looking for a better price (but could also call if your stack is huge if knocking out the 2nd player is a great benefit).Also - the fact that you raised with 3458 to begin with (and the fact that some of you don't like it) is irrelevent...he could have been making a move, or setting up a post-flop move...he may have raised blind and not looked until facing the all-ins...he could be randomizing and this was his time to raise a random hand...there are dozens of reasons to play this hand this way....just because the "book" says to fold it pf doesn't mean you should every time.
Fold. While you have a shot at two flushes, it's a low end. Even if both other players have aces, then they have a shot at the nut flush, if of course one of their other hole cards is a club or spade. The straight is almost as bad. If you get a wheel draw, you're up a creek because A) It can bring an Ace, likely making trips for one of your opponents, and B)if a 2 doesn't fall, you have 2 pair, and are probably already beaten. Not to mention the chances that your opponents have overcards galore. What if the flop's 7-9-10? You're hurting, and you've just thrown 3 grand away.You raised, you got reraised twice, it's time to get out cheap. Maybe I'd gamble in a tourney, but not in a cash game. That's how people go broke.
It doesn't matter if you're hurting after the flop...there's no more play here...you get to see all 5 cards....if the 2nd player had more money behind, then it's usually a clear fold, but your call of 3000 into a 7700 pot (assuming the first raiser calls his last 1100) is with the consideration that you are not going to be outplayed, you are not worried about pricing for a redraw after the flop, and you will see all 5 cards. It's as clear as day - do you have better than a 28% chance of winning this hand? Yes, you must call...no, you must fold.
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Maybe I'd gamble in a tourney, but not in a cash game. That's how people go broke.
I'd do the opposite. If I'm afraid of going broke, I'm playing at the wrong stakes.
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You raised, you got reraised twice, it's time to get out cheap. Maybe I'd gamble in a tourney, but not in a cash game. That's how people go broke.
Man, pot-limit omaha cash games are definitely not for you. You would probably hate a game where it is sometimes correct to fold the nuts on the flop and sometimes correct to jam the pot when your opponent flopped the nuts and you didn't.
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You raised, you got reraised twice, it's time to get out cheap. Maybe I'd gamble in a tourney, but not in a cash game. That's how people go broke.
If you can't afford to lose $3000 you shouldn't have $3000 on the table.
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Man, pot-limit omaha cash games are definitely not for you. You would probably hate a game where it is sometimes correct to fold the nuts on the flop and sometimes correct to jam the pot when your opponent flopped the nuts and you didn't.
Troo...nothing like having KdKsTdTs in your hand, to a board of Tc4s6sKc, and you're drawing dead.
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it would be a real wierd *** hand if one guy had a-a-t-j and another had a-a-k-q that just hardly ever happensi dont see why these guys need to have aces in their hand anyway remember they are real short stacked playing 100-200 with only 4000. even if they are rocks they could have any kind of big pair or a few high connecting cards. given the spot with chips already invested i would probably gamble and call the all ins.

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i dont see why these guys need to have aces in their hand anyway remember they are real short stacked playing 100-200 with only 4000. even if they are rocks they could have any kind of big pair or a few high connecting cards.
A very tight player almost never reraises committing more than half his chips without AA in his hand. A tight player never puts in the third raise after a very tight player reraises without AAxx. You would have a better chance of finding a hand other than AA in the hand of a tight player who puts in the third raise for the same amounts after a very tight player reraised an early position raise in a no limit hold em cash game.I think you people are really underestimating what very tight means in pot limit omaha. A tight PLO player will often see fewer flops than a tight NLHE player.
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A very tight player almost never reraises committing more than half his chips without AA in his hand. A tight player never puts in the third raise after a very tight player reraises without AAxx. You would have a better chance of finding a hand other than AA in the hand of a tight player who puts in the third raise for the same amounts after a very tight player reraised an early position raise in a no limit hold em cash game.I think you people are really underestimating what very tight means in pot limit omaha. A tight PLO player will often see fewer flops than a tight NLHE player.
I agree, at least one of the two players has AAxx, and the other guy is huge too....simple probability tells me the other has KKxx rather than also AAxx....and generally, your chances are much better if both players have AAxx, making it more correct to call....even against AAxx and AKKx you are likely over 30% to win the hand.
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I agree, at least one of the two players has AAxx, and the other guy is huge too....simple probability tells me the other has KKxx rather than also AAxx....and generally, your chances are much better if both players have AAxx, making it more correct to call....even against AAxx and AKKx you are likely over 30% to win the hand.
You need to factor in that, given a very tight player's reraise in front of him, a tight player would fold a lot of KKxx hands.
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You need to factor in that, given a very tight player's reraise in front of him, a tight player would fold a lot of KKxx hands.
yup...I am doubting the second reraiser has KKxx (though there are a few KKxx hands he might have, but overall it's almost guaranteed he has AAxx).The first reraiser could have KKxx, even at "very tight", especially if dude with 3468 is known to be loose.
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The quiz is "what would you do?", not "what is the correct play?"At the table there is no way I (personally) could evaluate that I was a 28% favorite with pot odds of 27%, so my instinct would be to fold.Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.

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The quiz is "what would you do?", not "what is the correct play?"At the table there is no way I (personally) could evaluate that I was a 28% favorite with pot odds of 27%, so my instinct would be to fold.Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.
Well, I don't know where you're getting 1%...He's getting 28% pot price, but he could be upwards of 40% to win the hand.Regardless, even if he's only 31% to win against a range of hands, that is not a 3% advantage...it's a 10% advantage.And, since the word "quiz" is used, that implies that there is a correct, and incorrect, play. (and folding may indeed be correct)And to be profitable long-term, you need to be able to determine what your odds are in all situations to determine if your price to play is correct.
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i don't know if there is a right answer here. odds probably say to call against the likely hands we've discussed, but the chances of winning are, obviously, low.i'm most concerned about AA with doublesuited cards in the high-straight ballpark of my hand. so, if my hand makes a straight, i'm probably in danger to a hand like AA89 or AA910 or something. that's the real problem with the hand. the same goes for making a low flush against nut flush draws.with two players all in, somebody's probably got our hand in a pretty bad spot. i think, overall, it's a bad gamble. fold.

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Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.
The reason DN works with these small raises on 'non-raisable' hands is to help his information gathering.When he gets reraised by a very tight player as opposed to being simply raised after limping, its a safe bet the raiser has a very strong hand, probably AAxx.Then when a tight player re-re-raises the thought process is similar.This makes the need to do +/- 1% calcs at the table uneccesary. You can deduce that you are putting in a good portion less than a third of the pot knowing that there is a good chance they are both holding AAxx, so against their likely ranges you have moved from a small dog upwards making it a call
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The quiz is "what would you do?", not "what is the correct play?"At the table there is no way I (personally) could evaluate that I was a 28% favorite with pot odds of 27%, so my instinct would be to fold.Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.
I don't know abut you, but I prefer it when what I would do is the same thing as what is the correct play.When playing pot limit omaha, these sorts of situations come up often enough that you have to be prepared and think ahead of time about what hands play well in multi-way all-in situations, both preflop and on the flop.PLO isn't a game for stealing blinds, and definitely not UTG. If DN raises UTG with this hand, it is because he is making a pot-building raise that he would like to see called.
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Guys heres something i dont think anyones said yet. the vote is pretty close so based on pot odds it probably doesnt matter if you fold or call in the long runbut if you make a call like this then everybody will notice and you'll send a message that you will protect your raises and cant be moved off hands. call here and no one will try to bluff you anytime soon

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Even if you are against KcKsQsJc and AcAsTsTc you are 32% to win...and I have to think that that is pretty close to your worst-case scenario against their probably holdings.
This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win! None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.
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This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win! None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.
This is balanced by the times you are 45% to win the hand. Because your opponents are tight, more often than not, the side cards to the aces each almost certainly have are more likely to conflict with eadh other than to block your hand.Plus, the third player in this hand should probably be folding KKQQds in this spot. Playing that hand is like playing JJ after UTG raises and a very tight player raises in a no limit hold em cash game. I think people are way overestimating the chances that at least one opponent doesn't hold AAxx.
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This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win! None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.
Then you're not reading, or understanding, the other posts in this thread...because I, and many others, have CLEARLY stated that the range of hands your opponents hold likely makes you over 30% to win the hand.In response to your hand...here are some plausible holdings - give player one AhAdKcQc and player two AsAcTsTc and you are 40% to win.....give player two AsAcKsKh and you're 43% to win...if player one has AhAcKdKs and player two has AdAsKhKc you are 58% to win...we can play this game forever if you want.You are likely well over 30% against their RANGE of hands, (and I'd venture to guess 35%), and since you only need 28%, call is the correct play.
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The odds are there. If you are hesitant about calling here and you understand that the odds are in your favor, then you are playing too far above your bankroll. In a tourney, you can argue for this fold because although you are getting odds, you are risking your tournament life with not that huge of an edge.In a cash game, when you can rebuy at will, there is no reason to fold this hand given the math expressed above by our forum math whizzes. :club:

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You are playing $100-$200 blind Pot Limit Omaha and come in raising to $600 with 3 :D 4 :D 5 :club: 8 :D A very tight player re-raised the pot, making it $2100 to go and only had $1100 left. Now, another tight player goes all in for a total of $3600. You have to call $3000 more in what will most certainly be a three way pot. What would you do?
i'd call. even if we have both our suits dominated assuming both tight players have big pairs or double suited broadway hands we are still only slightly worse than a 3:1 dog, and getting better than 3:1 on the call given this is a worst case scenario i can't see folding. i'm sure there are some scenarios in which the tight players both have aces or other big broadway hands and they are the ones sharing cards/suits and we have almost 50% equity.-andrew
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