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Flush Draws On The Flop


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I guess this is aimed at me??? I could give a XXXX less about losing a hand. I'm looking into possible ways of playing certain types of hands. I gave a fairly specific example, which was based on a "real-life" incident. I have often wondered what type of play would have guarded against this happening, and I was wondering what other players had to say. I got a lot of responses that were similar to what I had already considered.There seems to be a huge amount of disagreement on how to best play that sort of hand, or any other hand. Short of folding, it's possible that no one is wrong. I made the play I wanted, I got the action I wanted. Losing a hand and busting out of a tournament are completely different issues, hence the original question.What exactly is your problem?
Why would you guess it's aimed at you when he quoted someone else?
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I made the play I wanted, I got the action I wanted. Losing a hand and busting out of a tournament are completely different issues, hence the original question.What exactly is your problem?
What's the best play in this sutation? You flop a set, and there are 4-5 players in the hand and it's likely that at least one has a flush draw. Is there a good way out? Again, I'm not implying that there is anything necessarily wrong with them calling when they have pot-odds, I'm just asking what I should do on a flop like that during a tournament.
problem, if you can call anything on a forum, "a problem" is countless discussions on "how to avoid" getting-knocked-out-of-tourney-when-I-flop-a-big-hand type threads. Problem also of others coming in knowing what happened and advising based on results. you seem mad.it's jus a forum.
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problem, if you can call anything on a forum, "a problem" is countless discussions on "how to avoid" getting-knocked-out-of-tourney-when-I-flop-a-big-hand type threads. Problem also of others coming in knowing what happened and advising based on results. you seem mad.it's jus a forum.
I'm not mad. I thought you were, with the big caps, the bold letters, and the exaggerations. Again, I'm just looking for insight, and out of all of the posters here, I think your answers hold the most weight. But posting here is frenzied.By providing a more specific scenario, it seemed like it would be easier to analyze the play. I didn't do it simply so I could mention how "I got sucked-out and it sucked. Please have sympathy." I've got some 1-outers stories that are much better for that.I'm obviously not the only one here that struggles with this type of situation. Sometimes it's a set, sometimes it's an overpair, sometimes it's TP/TK.I understand what you mean by "results don't matter", but if I flop a full-house and then push all-in, I'm a complete moron. You want to make a play that is most likely to get you the most chips. That's partly mathematics, partly psychology, and partly the skill/aggressiveness of the player that you are up against.Being completely serious, do you think I made a bad play with the above scenario by only betting 1/2 the pot from BB? If so, explain why. I'm listening and I'm not mad. I'm insane, but not angry. :club:
Why would you guess it's aimed at you when he quoted someone else?
Maybe because I've posted the same thing 27 times, but phrased slightly differently each time, and I feel like an idiot. LOL
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This thread has made me slightly stupider.Everybody needs to listen to Actuary.The quote of the day is:"I play poker to win MONEY, not pots."If you can figure that out, you've made the leap.- Zach

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Being completely serious, do you think I made a bad play with the above scenario by only betting 1/2 the pot from BB?
1st, we cannot assume even with 4 others in pot that one has a flush drawOdds of getting dealt to spades with 2 on board is about 4.5%. Given 9 others, then about 35% of the time someone has the FD. However, that also assumes everyone sees the flop. Even donkeys fold T4s preflop.So, let's not assume we are against a flush draw 100%, yet.However, much of our potential profit WILL COME from FD's here and maybe a passive AJ or silly J7s. But by and large, when you are ahead here (not losing to set over set) the action will come from FD's or overpairs that love to be twicky. Lead the flop.You want to build a pot here. It's a small pot with a strong hand..build it. 1/2 pot is fine on the flop but I'd think 3/4 is better. Given it's muitlway you'll have opportuniteis to get called by any J any 7 and gutshot, and over cards + back dor draws, and pocket pair.I don't think a huge emphasis should be put on the amount of the flop bet; just say the more coordinated the board, the more likely it was to hit someone, and the more players in the hand, the bigger the bet.If you try to go for a c/r you probably take it down more often but at the risk of a smaller pot or possible check thru. Leading the flop looks weaker than a check raise and you will win bigger pots. If you are shorter stacked and many players are close to pot committed, then a c/r would be better.And of course, after he raises, you should put him all in.Don't give him a chance to fold a missed draw and don't fear set over set.***********************************
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I've had too much caffiene today, and now I feel like I need to remove at least half of this thread. Nevertheless, I'm going to post again, because that's just me.Anyway, while my questions may sound relatively stupid from time to time, I think most of my play has been pretty decent. Sometimes it's good to know "Why EXACTLY am I doing what I'm doing?" And it's especially true after you lose a big hand, and feel like an idiot. So, if someone reads this and underestimates me, great. :club: Without quoting Actuary's entire answer, I'll just add an additional "Thank you." :D

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I've had too much caffiene today, and now I feel like I need to remove at least half of this thread. Nevertheless, I'm going to post again, because that's just me.Anyway, while my questions may sound relatively stupid from time to time, I think most of my play has been pretty decent. Sometimes it's good to know "Why EXACTLY am I doing what I'm doing?" And it's especially true after you lose a big hand, and feel like an idiot. So, if someone reads this and underestimates me, great. :club: Without quoting Actuary's entire answer, I'll just add an additional "Thank you." :D
I like your honesty... and I will underestimate you :D
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Who's upset here? No one is complaining. Poker is poker. My original question was simply if there is a good way to survive this type of encounter, short of simply hoping that your odds prevail, and going bust if they don't.In a cash game, I believe the answer is very straight-forward. In tournament play, it may be a cloudier issue.Again, this same issue could come up if you have an overpair, in which case your odds may be around 60/40, rather than about 75/25 if you have a set.Incidentally, Matusow busted out of the WSOP with just such a hand. I don't see how he could have avoided it, either. But that's the point of my post. Is there a smarter way to play when you're up against a flush draw on the flop? When is caution warranted? What about trapping?With a set, I think the question has been largely answered, and my position is "whatever you think will get you the most chips." Trapping with a smaller (half-pot) bet is risky since the flush card may hit on the turn if you get 3-4 callers (and no raisers), nevertheless, I don't think it's a bad play, and it may allow you back out of the hand on the turn and survive the tournament. Yes, it's a risk, too, but if a flush card doesn't come on the turn, your pot may be 3 times bigger, or perhaps you even have a full-house now.Statistically, it's easy to say "get all your chips in the pot on the flop", but will that earn you the most chips? Especially if it's an otherwise crappy flop.If Daniel tells me that the trap play is bad, maybe then I'll listen. Or maybe I'll just go ask Phil. :club:
I really don't see that this was an overly bad play. I guess it somewhat depends on the style player you have sitting across from you.
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I really don't see that this was an overly bad play. I guess it somewhat depends on the style player you have sitting across from you.
It's not, I've just been getting out-drawn a lot lately in MTT's and SnG's, no matter what I seem to do... Oh well. Rigged. :club:
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Sometimes, you can't guard against somebody chasing a flush draw because despite the odds, they are still willing to push on just a draw.But if I feel my opponent is on a draw and will chase no matter what, then I'm pushing him all in. In the long run, you come out ahead in those situations.

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