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Flush Draws On The Flop


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Perhaps this is just one of those situations where you just have to see how the hand pans out, but I encounter if frequently (mostly in $10 or less MTT's, SnG's).Prime example:Dealt to me 3h3dFlop: 3c 7c JhPost flop, I raise 1/2 the pot, get a couple callers, then one guy bets half his stack. I push, he calls, makes the flush, I'm gone.#2. Alternately, I could have pushed all my chips on the flop, but I'm still 95% certain he would call, and if he didn't, I'd take a tiny pot.#3. I could have called his bet, then pray that a club doesn't come on the turn, but at that point, my stack may be almost all gone.Anyway, it seems like a lot of players view flush draws as coin-flips. Indeed, a lot of the time, they could have pot-odds, and of course I have pot odds to call any bet that they make (probably even if I think they have a straight).What's the best play in this sutation? You flop a set, and there are 4-5 players in the hand and it's likely that at least one has a flush draw. Is there a good way out? Again, I'm not implying that there is anything necessarily wrong with them calling when they have pot-odds, I'm just asking what I should do on a flop like that during a tournament.I apologize if this has come up before. If so, just point me in the right direction.

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If I flop a set in a big multi-way pot (4 others) and there's a flush draw on the board, then I'm betting the full pot, not half. And if it were a relatively small pot to the flop in relation to the chip stacks, then I would consider betting more than the pot. Two things to keep in mind here. One, you're a favorite to win vs any flush draw. Two, you still have outs when holding a set should they complete the flush. All you need is for the board to pair to give you the boat. I believe flopped sets improve to boats around 1/4-1/3 of the time. Maybe someone can clarify the odds for this.

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If I flop a set in a big multi-way pot (4 others) and there's a flush draw on the board, then I'm betting the full pot, not half. And if it were a relatively small pot to the flop in relation to the chip stacks, then I would consider betting more than the pot. Two things to keep in mind here. One, you're a favorite to win vs any flush draw. Two, you still have outs when holding a set should they complete the flush. All you need is for the board to pair to give you the boat. I believe flopped sets improve to boats around 1/4-1/3 of the time. Maybe someone can clarify the odds for this.
I understand the odds aspect (I'm likely a 3 to 1 favorite), I'm just saying that I don't believe there is any way to get certain players to fold in these situations, especially in low-limit tourneys.Say blinds are 100, and I'm in early position, I call and get 3 callers after me. My stack is 2,000 and is about avg. I call and SB and BB call.Pot: 500If I bet 500-700, the flush guy is probably still thinking "Implied odds". If I bet 1,000, he's likely to push in the rest of his stack, probably figuring that I have an overpair. Ok, not all players will do this, but in low-limit NLHE, it's a common sight. Overbetting often looks like a dare. "I dare you to call!" "Idiot! I have a flush draw!"Granted, it's not necessarily a "bad" situation, as 3 out of 4 times, I guess I'd want him to call, but is it possible to mitigate the damage?This also could apply to situations where I have an overpair, although I'd raise preflop if so.
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If it is a small pot I will make small but reasonable bet that I expect to be called (some people will call no matter how much you bet) What I don't want to do is "give pot odds" meaning the more I bet the more attractive the prize is. "People also have the perception they have two cards to win with". If I get raised I call (beware of) "is the player raising only to slow me down so that I do not bet on the turn card or do they actually have a hand".Turn Card: I will bet or raise more than the pot (only one card to go not so attractive) depending on the player(s) calling I may even place all my chips at risk or a better play is to count their chips bet the exact amount the player with the most chips has or the first player to call has.Not 100% guaranteed but a good payoff when they miss, :D :icon_clap:Lesson to learn: Never be afraid to lose :club:

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I understand the odds aspect (I'm likely a 3 to 1 favorite), I'm just saying that I don't believe there is any way to get certain players to fold in these situations, especially in low-limit tourneys.Say blinds are 100, and I'm in early position, I call and get 3 callers after me. My stack is 2,000 and is about avg. I call and SB and BB call.Pot: 500If I bet 500-700, the flush guy is probably still thinking "Implied odds". If I bet 1,000, he's likely to push in the rest of his stack, probably figuring that I have an overpair. Ok, not all players will do this, but in low-limit NLHE, it's a common sight. Overbetting often looks like a dare. "I dare you to call!" "Idiot! I have a flush draw!"Granted, it's not necessarily a "bad" situation, as 3 out of 4 times, I guess I'd want him to call, but is it possible to mitigate the damage?This also could apply to situations where I have an overpair, although I'd raise preflop if so.
If you can't deal with the 25% of times when the guy chases his flush draw and catches it, stop playing poker. now. You want him to chase these draws because he is making the mistake not you..Decisions, not results (Sounding like Rocketwadster now, eh? lol)
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If you can't deal with the 25% of times when the guy chases his flush draw and catches it, stop playing poker. now.
There's always at least one post like this... I'm still waiting for "This should be in the bad beat forum."I deal with bad beats all the time. I even deal with 1-outers on the river. It sucks, but it's poker. My point here, is that in tournament play perhaps I'm not making the right decision on how to guard against someone with a flush draw without going bust, especially in the case of a flopping a set.I think WowThats had a good response. I could have simply called the big bet, then possibly checked the turn if it was a club (he didn't say that), or otherwise pushed on the turn. Regardless, I still may have had to call any bet on the river, simply because of pot-odds and my remaining stack size, but I could make a more informed call. Any bet larger than 20% of the pot, and he should fold on the turn, if the turn doesn't give him his flush.
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not sure what the problem is.you want a full proof and profitable way to not get outdrawn ?semi bluffing with the draws is popular because you will lay down a lot of hands. They don't know you have a set.Bet good size bets, like pot, if multiway.****************************************

I think WowThats had a good response. I could have simply called the big bet,
no.you want the money in when your equity is high and others will pay you off.he may have top two pair. Why does he have to have a FD?a third flush card could kill your action.no, getting it all in on the flop was correct.
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no, getting it all in on the flop was correct.
That makes sense. Thanks.Part of me has always wondered about this situation. "Did I just make a donkish bet there?" I've played that hand in every way imaginable, but the results are generally the same. If someone has a flush draw, I'll be all-in on either the flop or turn. That's not necessarily bad, as has been pointed out. I guess "it's just poker."In fact, in the above situation, everyone acted exactly as I'd hoped they would (I wanted to be re-raised), but then I busted out. But hey, it happens...
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Is there a good way out?
I'm just saying that I don't believe there is any way to get certain players to fold in these situations
i think you answered your own question
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i have been struggling with this same scenario lately and i can't figure out the correct answer. the answer might be, "play higher," because i feel like people NEVER fold flush draws at the lower limits. sometimes i push the flop with a hand like this and make them play for all of their chips if they want to draw. more often than not they call and, at least against me, they always seem to hit. i have tried betting the pot or 1 1/2 times the pot and they always call. this at least gives you the option of folding on the turn if they hit and bet it strong. i think a lot of time they will check when they make their flush, giving you a chance to fill up. i wish there was a definitive answer...

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there is: Charge the appropriate price and stop getting up set when they hit their draws. Poker is stochasitc not deterministic.
Who's upset here? No one is complaining. Poker is poker. My original question was simply if there is a good way to survive this type of encounter, short of simply hoping that your odds prevail, and going bust if they don't.In a cash game, I believe the answer is very straight-forward. In tournament play, it may be a cloudier issue.Again, this same issue could come up if you have an overpair, in which case your odds may be around 60/40, rather than about 75/25 if you have a set.Incidentally, Matusow busted out of the WSOP with just such a hand. I don't see how he could have avoided it, either. But that's the point of my post. Is there a smarter way to play when you're up against a flush draw on the flop? When is caution warranted? What about trapping?With a set, I think the question has been largely answered, and my position is "whatever you think will get you the most chips." Trapping with a smaller (half-pot) bet is risky since the flush card may hit on the turn if you get 3-4 callers (and no raisers), nevertheless, I don't think it's a bad play, and it may allow you back out of the hand on the turn and survive the tournament. Yes, it's a risk, too, but if a flush card doesn't come on the turn, your pot may be 3 times bigger, or perhaps you even have a full-house now.Statistically, it's easy to say "get all your chips in the pot on the flop", but will that earn you the most chips? Especially if it's an otherwise crappy flop.If Daniel tells me that the trap play is bad, maybe then I'll listen. Or maybe I'll just go ask Phil. :club:
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1) Turn Card: I will bet or raise more than the pot (only one card to go not so attractive) depending on the player(s) calling I may even place all my chips at risk or a better play is to count their chips bet the exact amount the player with the most chips has or the first player to call has. 2) Lesson to learn: Never be afraid to lose :club:
1) in this specific situation, rather than push the flop, I love to get to the turn cheaply -- there, you can make the flush draw look more like garbage, or at least see that it happened and get out with your skin intact. Depends on stacks, too. If I have 4 times as many chips as the flush draw villain has ... easy push. Put him in. 2) I seriously appreciate the sentiment behind that statement, but I have to tell you ... this summer has been HELL on me. If I put someone all in and they end up with only one or two outs ... they've been hitting them around 80% of the time. *I KNOW* it's variance, but it has been a MAJOR, MAJOR ***** to live through. I know now how poker pros steam; I know how they go broke; and I know how hard it must be to make a living on this game when variance hits. It is an AMAZING thing to live through.
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1) in this specific situation, rather than push the flop, I love to get to the turn cheaply -- there, you can make the flush draw look more like garbage, or at least see that it happened and get out with your skin intact. Depends on stacks, too. If I have 4 times as many chips as the flush draw villain has ... easy push. Put him in. 2) I seriously appreciate the sentiment behind that statement, but I have to tell you ... this summer has been HELL on me. If I put someone all in and they end up with only one or two outs ... they've been hitting them around 80% of the time. *I KNOW* it's variance, but it has been a MAJOR, MAJOR ***** to live through. I know now how poker pros steam; I know how they go broke; and I know how hard it must be to make a living on this game when variance hits. It is an AMAZING thing to live through.
Giving them a cheap/free turn is often stupid. It's exactly what the OP doesn't want to do. And judging by his statements, the stack sizes are small enough to get all the money in by the river.Also, having more chips than one villian doesn't turn this into a push where we massively overbet.
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1) in this specific situation, rather than push the flop, I love to get to the turn cheaply -- there, you can make the flush draw look more like garbage, or at least see that it happened and get out with your skin intact. Depends on stacks, too. If I have 4 times as many chips as the flush draw villain has ... easy push. Put him in.
Stop posting this advice
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Who's upset here? No one is complaining. Poker is poker. My original question was simply if there is a good way to survive this type of encounter, short of simply hoping that your odds prevail, and going bust if they don't.
You could always just FOLD.
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Giving them a cheap/free turn is often stupid. It's exactly what the OP doesn't want to do. And judging by his statements, the stack sizes are small enough to get all the money in by the river.
"Giving them a cheap card" has other benefits, though. If you bet half the pot (as I did in this unique situation) on what is basically a crap flop, the guy with the flush draw is probably thinking "Top pair, weak kicker." Especially, if he's in late position, it's likely that he'll bet about the size of the pot on a semi-bluff.Generally, I don't mind getting all of my money-in when I'm a 3 to 1 favorite. But, short of pushing all-in (say perhaps 3X-4X pot) and winning a small-pot (assuming he doesn't call anyway, and you bust out), would the results have been much different? By betting half the pot, there are now substantially more chips in the pot, even if it wasn't re-raised, and if the non-pairing flush card comes on the turn (< 20% chance?), your pot is potentially very large now, you can bet the pot, and the flush draw(s) will fold.This hand actually happened to me recently early in Party's $20K Gtd. Bet raised to 120 (2x BB) pre-flop, I had 33 on BB with 4 or 5 callers. Bottom-trips on J-high crap flop with potential flush draw. I bet about half the pot (around 250) got two callers and one huge reraise (1K), I pushed in the rest of my chips (about 2K into a pot of about 2300) and he called (about 1K into a pot of 4450) and had me covered by about 1K. I gave him pot odds to make the call, but my point was that no matter how I played (unless I folded), the results would probably have been the same, or best case, I'd pick up a smaller pot if I had pushed the flop and he folded. What happened was exactly what I wanted to happen, but I lost. Worst case, I had a very good chance of doubling the pot (or more than doubling) by playing it this way, with a small chance of losing it on the turn. Had I done things differently, the pot would have been smaller, regardless of if I had won it or not. Pushing from BB would have been overly cautious, imho, but it may have gotten the flush draw and everyone else to fold, I'd then have 500 more chips, still be in the tournament, and maybe have a LAG table image.Well, anyway. I stand by my play, so I shouldn't have posted a question here.
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Giving them a cheap/free turn is often stupid. It's exactly what the OP doesn't want to do. And judging by his statements, the stack sizes are small enough to get all the money in by the river.Also, having more chips than one villian doesn't turn this into a push where we massively overbet.
Did you hear me say "in this specific situation?"
Stop posting this advice
Why? Villian is less than 25% to catch his card on the turn and then you have another action to make him make a REALLY stupid decision, or a check and cheap fold if the flush hits.
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there is: Charge the appropriate price and stop getting up set when they hit their draws. Poker is stochasitc not deterministic.
:club: I was already lost at "full proof". :D
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Did you hear me say "in this specific situation?"Why? Villian is less than 25% to catch his card on the turn and then you have another action to make him make a REALLY stupid decision, or a check and cheap fold if the flush hits.
PLEASE STOP GIVING ADVICE BASED ON RESULTS****************************Rather than start a new thread...I"m so tired of posters who just want to know how to avoid losing a hand.It happensYou don't know what opponent has.sometimes they chase.sometimes they have you beat.No one wants to read 7 paragraphs about how you lost even though you were ahead on the flop etc... just leave results out.
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Uncle,you've inspired a new thread.many like you have contributed.
I'm not sure what I am... Prince among fools, or a fool among princes?Oh well, I'm still making money...
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Why? Villian is less than 25% to catch his card on the turn and then you have another action to make him make a REALLY stupid decision, or a check and cheap fold if the flush hits.
It's a puss play, it also presumes you are be absolutely sure he is on a flush draw without having any way to know (because you are saying to pass on the flop bet)... In poker you are trying to force the other person to make bad decisions... it is not about an individual hand... sigh... I feel that it's not worth debating this with you and explaining why... but I suggest you read every poker book ever written...
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PLEASE STOP GIVING ADVICE BASED ON RESULTS****************************Rather than start a new thread...I"m so tired of posters who just want to know how to avoid losing a hand.It happensYou don't know what opponent has.sometimes they chase.sometimes they have you beat.No one wants to read 7 paragraphs about how you lost even though you were ahead on the flop etc... just leave results out.
I guess this is aimed at me??? I could give a XXXX less about losing a hand. I'm looking into possible ways of playing certain types of hands. I gave a fairly specific example, which was based on a "real-life" incident. I have often wondered what type of play would have guarded against this happening, and I was wondering what other players had to say. I got a lot of responses that were similar to what I had already considered.There seems to be a huge amount of disagreement on how to best play that sort of hand, or any other hand. Short of folding, it's possible that no one is wrong. I made the play I wanted, I got the action I wanted. Losing a hand and busting out of a tournament are completely different issues, hence the original question.What exactly is your problem?
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