Wpt Lawsuit...my Perspective

[Omniscient 0]

This is one of the few times I really felt a need to post. I know this has been talked about to death but I just had to comment on it. Daniel, this post is more specifically for you to read but anyone else can chime in if they please to. First off Daniel this is in no way an attack on you just because I am disagreeing, cause this is probably the only thing I have disagreed with when it comes to your views on things and I have a similar mindset and personality like yours (in short I would rather hang out with you or be friends with you over any of the 7 filing the lawsuit, just so you know that all this is, is a disagreement) just giving my opinion and wanted you to see my perspective and see if it changes your view on any of this. Just really short and to the point.I know you are saying that this might be really bad for poker and the timing is bad and the WPT has done so much for the players and without them none of this would exist. So in short, that is basically all the things you see wrong with this suit keeping it simple.Now my perspective…While I agree with you on every single one of your reasons why they shouldn’t file this lawsuit, I also agree with their reasons of why they should. And when I weighed both of the arguments together I would have to say they should still go for it. And my main reason that gets to me is because by now the WPT is a cash cow, sure everything that has happened for poker was started because of them but just because they did that for us doesn’t mean they should take advantage. I mean I really doubt they or any company like that just does all this for poker or people in general. They do it for the money and that is the bottom line. So yes we benefited from the WPT and hey so did they and in a big way and they have made a lot of money. So you can basically say the WPT and the players both benefited and that makes it equal. But what they are doing with the valuable intellectual property rights for their free use is what is so wrong and that’s why when you said in your V-blog all the WPT has done for us I just thought about all this. They have done a lot for us and made a lot of money also. So they don’t need to go beyond their programs to promote products and services of players and those players have no control. For that reason alone I think it is worth fighting for till the end. Even if it means risking a few things that you mentioned in your V-blog. I think it is such a big deal that they are using us in those ways that I would fight for this no matter the risk involved and have a passion fighting for it because the big cash cow WPT that has done so much for poker is also taking advantage of the fact that we should be so grateful and not say anything while they use us. And we put up our own prize pools, pay extra fees to the host casinos and also pay for our travel to these events. I could imagine Tiger Woods having to pay to play in the PGA tournaments and also giving up his rights. I don’t know, just felt like I should let this out and that they have their reasons that they are doing it and don’t feel so bad for the WPT in the ways of people not being grateful, because like I said they have made so much money now its ridiculous and they need to do the right thing. Yes it is at a bad time and yes it might put poker in a bad light at this time, butttt…… it is really worth it.This was of course all my opinion and just wanted you to see it in a different light maybe and closer to how they see it. Anyway that’s all; see you at the legends if you are coming out to L.A. maybe we’ll play against each other. And anyone else want to comment, feel free, would want to see if you guys agree or disagree.

[ugothustld 0]

I totally agree with Daniel on the lawsuit. I really have not done any research into the lawsuit, I just know what I know from the V-blog and a few flyers and such. It is really a bad, bad, baddddd time for this lawsuit. For a lot of us poker players that dont live in Vegas, AC, LA, etc. its hard to find a game round the clock. I dont know about you, but there are thousands of players who play online as their full-time job. Who pay rent/mortgages, child support, food, etc. with the income they make online. If this lawsuit goes through, it will kill online poker. It will give the Senate more reasons to push the bill through. Because they are going to pull every single piece of dirt up on everyone of those players and the IRS is going to have a field day. To the 7 players. If you dont like the agreement with the WPT, THEN DONT PLAY IN THEIR TOURNAMENTS. If you would have really wanted to do something to help ALL poker player, there is a much simpler way. We could have banded together and boycotted the tournaments. How can they run a tournament with no players. We could have easily hired a team of lawyers to discuss this matter with the WPT. I think the WPT do have some rights when it comes to using your image and such, just as long as it doesnt go over a boundary. Like Greg Raymer's image used to sell WPT cheeseburgers. I mean from what I understand that is one reason their is a lawsuit because they could use their image anyway they would want to.I understand why these 7 players are sueing. You as a player could miss out on a lot of money through promotions and such. Trust me, I want all the money I can get. But there are ways of resolving this issue without bringing courts into it. Like Daniel says though, "Why bite the hand that originally fed you?" It is causing a lot of tension in the poker world.If I sound like a moron, feel free to tell me because I will delete this post. haha

[blueodum 0]

I dont know about you, but there are thousands of players who play online as their full-time job. Who pay rent/mortgages, child support, food, etc. with the income they make online. If this lawsuit goes through, it will kill online poker. It will give the Senate more reasons to push the bill through. Because they are going to pull every single piece of dirt up on everyone of those players and the IRS is going to have a field day.This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.Why would a civil lawsuit that no one outside the poker community has or will pay attention to have an impact on what goes on in the Federal government?

[DerekTah 0]

I dont know about you, but there are thousands of players who play online as their full-time job. Who pay rent/mortgages, child support, food, etc. with the income they make online. If this lawsuit goes through, it will kill online poker. It will give the Senate more reasons to push the bill through. Because they are going to pull every single piece of dirt up on everyone of those players and the IRS is going to have a field day.This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.Why would a civil lawsuit that no one outside the poker community has or will pay attention to have an impact on what goes on in the Federal government?

Thank god, I thought I was the only person who knew how stupid the "they shouldn't sue, because after the lawsuit the goverment will make poker illegal" was as a argument.For those who disagree with this issue because of the timing of it. When exactly would a ok time to sue the WPT be anyway. Only once poker is legal in every state? When every politican agrees poker isn't gambling? I would really like to know when the timing is going to be perfect.

[nutzbuster 7]

For the most part, the lawsuit sucks.Getting lawyers involved in anything sucks.And having 10,000 threads about this sucks.that is all.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I dont know about you, but there are thousands of players who play online as their full-time job. Who pay rent/mortgages, child support, food, etc. with the income they make online. If this lawsuit goes through, it will kill online poker. It will give the Senate more reasons to push the bill through. Because they are going to pull every single piece of dirt up on everyone of those players and the IRS is going to have a field day.This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.Why would a civil lawsuit that no one outside the poker community has or will pay attention to have an impact on what goes on in the Federal government?

Because not only with they be messing with the WPT, but they'll also be messing with MGM/Mirage who doesn't necessary love the idea of their potential customers burning up their money online rather than in their casinos. Also, because they will try to paint the seven plaintiffs as criminals living in the U.S. If they can discredit the seven plaintiffs (and they can very easily) then not only could the seven recieve more negative attention from the gov't, but all of us who enjoy playing online poker could suffer from all of the extra attention. There are more reasons why these seven players have gone about this in the entirely wrong way, but I won't get into it all. A better approach than a lawsuit, would have been to bring together 500 to 1000 players to put pressure on the WPT by threatening not to play in the events unless certain changes were made. This would have been a much more effective strategy than these seven trying to sue for damages.

[XX44466XX 0]

Daniel, your logic is most Spock-like in your assessment of the situation at hand.

[Oziumrules 0]

Because not only with they be messing with the WPT, but they'll also be messing with MGM/Mirage who doesn't necessary love the idea of their potential customers burning up their money online rather than in their casinos. Also, because they will try to paint the seven plaintiffs as criminals living in the U.S. If they can discredit the seven plaintiffs (and they can very easily) then not only could the seven recieve more negative attention from the gov't, but all of us who enjoy playing online poker could suffer from all of the extra attention. There are more reasons why these seven players have gone about this in the entirely wrong way, but I won't get into it all. A better approach than a lawsuit, would have been to bring together 500 to 1000 players to put pressure on the WPT by threatening not to play in the events unless certain changes were made. This would have been a much more effective strategy than these seven trying to sue for damages.

Im sure they tried to get as many high-profile poker player as they could. Odds are most players feel a lawsuit would do more harm than good. I remember a few players asked the WPT to stop using ads (WPT Online) with there likeness because of there own affiliations with online poker sites and they stopped.

[Aardhart 0]

A better approach than a lawsuit, would have been to bring together 500 to 1000 players to put pressure on the WPT by threatening not to play in the events unless certain changes were made. This would have been a much more effective strategy than these seven trying to sue for damages.

That's herding cats. There has been discussion of a poker union or organization for a long time but never with any success. The plaintiffs have been sitting out for a while and trying to get others to join them. They wanted the release changed. You attacked them for this and undermined their efforts. You wanted them to ignore the plain language of the written release and rely on assurances that Lyle gave. Lyle expressed the opinion that star players were not necessary for the success of WPT. He said six monkees at the final table would get the same ratings. Blame the WPT for insisting on an illegal release, not seven players for challenging it. There is no reason that the seven should be dependant on a concensus to protect their rights.Has a good reason EVER been given for WPT's refusal to change the release?

Because not only with they be messing with the WPT, but they'll also be messing with MGM/Mirage who doesn't necessary love the idea of their potential customers burning up their money online rather than in their casinos.

How is this relevant to the lawsuit? MGM/Mirage is not a party to this lawsuit and will not be directly affected by it. They, and all poker rooms, have benefitted from the poker boom that is attributable in part to online poker. But none of that is relevant to a lawsuit about the WPT.

Also, because they will try to paint the seven plaintiffs as criminals living in the U.S. If they can discredit the seven plaintiffs (and they can very easily) then not only could the seven recieve more negative attention from the gov't, but all of us who enjoy playing online poker could suffer from all of the extra attention.

Several points here.1. None of this is relevant to the lawsuit. If a pimp is in an inheretance dispute with his brother, allegations about him being a pimp will be excluded as irrelevant and prejudicial unless it is related to the dispute.2. Why are you blaming the Seven for what the WPT is doing or might do? It is of the WPT that you say "they will try to paint the seven plaintiffs as criminals." If the WPT sets out to destroy poker, blame the WPT, not the plaintiffs.3. The Plaintiffs are intellegent people with a lot to lose if online poker disappears. They are aware of the stakes. They have as much to lose as you do. Maybe they did not make a reckless decision. Maybe the lawsuit is not as risky as you imagine it to be. I have not heard anything that would lead me to believe that it poses any special danger.4. The Department of Justice is aware of who is sponsored by which poker site and any DOJ action won't be prompted by this.5. If you are worried about extra attention, quit bringing extra attention. The lawsuit is a flashlight, and you are worried that the flashlight will set the forest on fire. You are fanning the flames. 6. I think that the WPT used you to sway public opinion. They know how respected and influential you are among your peers and the public and fed you a bunch of distorted information about the lawsuit to get you on their side.

[nutzbuster 7]

There are more reasons why these seven players have gone about this in the entirely wrong way, but I won't get into it all. A better approach than a lawsuit, would have been to bring together 500 to 1000 players to put pressure on the WPT by threatening not to play in the events unless certain changes were made. This would have been a much more effective strategy than these seven trying to sue for damages.

BINGO!absolutley right on the money Daniel. More often than not, the only folks that come out ahead after a court battle are the lawyers.

[Shilee 0]

I would love to know the whole story on this law suit against WPT, I only know bits and peices, but one thing I know for sure, never bite the hand that feeds you! Also, I would love to know who the 7 of them are besides (The Lawyer)!!

[chrozzo 19]

I would love to know the whole story on this law suit against WPT, I only know bits and peices, but one thing I know for sure, never bite the hand that feeds you! Also, I would love to know who the 7 of them are besides (The Lawyer)!!

i think included are Raymer, Block, Gordon, Lederer, Dukeis Ferguson involved?

[acesfull333 0]

Here's the ones involved : http://www.wptlawsuit.com/

[ugothustld 0]

Thank god, I thought I was the only person who knew how stupid the "they shouldn't sue, because after the lawsuit the goverment will make poker illegal" was as a argument.For those who disagree with this issue because of the timing of it. When exactly would a ok time to sue the WPT be anyway. Only once poker is legal in every state? When every politican agrees poker isn't gambling? I would really like to know when the timing is going to be perfect.

Ok, I didnt mean to make it sound like if the lawsuit goes through it is going to push the bill through. What I was trying to say is that this lawsuit is going to spotlight every other issue there is on poker itself, including the online community. Oh and "when would a ok time to sue the WPT be anyways,"........NEVER. Their not going to win, as much as I would like them to, they wont.If you think that this lawsuit is going to have no effect upon any other issue surrounding poker, your a complete moron. And maybe the bill would pass through on its own without the spotlight, but with it, I almost guarentee it will. Once everyone sees the dirt that is brought up against these players, its going to kill poker.

[Aardhart 0]

Their not going to win, as much as I would like them to, they wont.

Every legal analysis of the lawsuit from a lawyer is that the lawsuit has merit and a chance of success. Their lawyer is one of the best antitrust lawyers in the country and is supported by one of the top law firms.Even if they are not successful on every claim, I have not read of a single person who believes that the WPT release will stand up in court.

Ok, I didnt mean to make it sound like if the lawsuit goes through it is going to push the bill through. ...If you think that this lawsuit is going to have no effect upon any other issue surrounding poker, your a complete moron. And maybe the bill would pass through on its own without the spotlight, but with it, I almost guarentee it will. Once everyone sees the dirt that is brought up against these players, its going to kill poker.

What spotlight? I just did a google news search, and there has been negligible coverage in the mainstream press about this lawsuit. Other than an editorial in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, coverage has been almost exclusively bland reports that a lawsuit has been filed. Without the Negreanu-Raymer fireworks, there would be no reason for mainstream media to cover it further until resolution.I also do not see how this lawsuit would convince anyone that online poker is bad. I can understand how the following can make someone believe that online poker should be outlawed: A kid robbing banks because of online poker debts; proof that a terrorist organization somehow used online gaming sites for something (which is frequently alleged, but without any actual support); or proof of other evils of online gaming. However, I don't understand how a lawsuit that does not even remotely involve online gambling would persuade an undecided Senator or Representative that online poker should be outlawed.

Once everyone sees the dirt that is brought up against these players

????It's not like Raymer, Lederer, Duke, Jesus, and Hatchem aren't already on TV hundreds of times a day endorsing online poker sites. There is also no reason that this lawsuit should allow irrelevant information to be dug up.

[Aardhart 0]

I have a question for Daniel. Daniel, you stated that

I did study the case with the help of lawyers. I don't understand it, but they explained it to me in layman's terms for us dumb folk. From what I can see, you don't have a shot, you're not going to win . . . .

Were the lawyers that you discussed this case with associated with the WPT or were they independent of the WPT? I would be surprised if an independent lawyer told you that they have no shot to win on any claim, because this conflicts with my own analysis and almost every analysis that I read online. However, I understand how an advocate could persuade someone on any issue involved.I'm posting a lot in favor of the plaintiffs because I think they are right. I do not question Daniel's intelligence or integrity, however, and I respect him tremendously.

[Muck, You Suckers! 0]

I agree with Aardhart. I was thinkin' the same. Who were these lawyers you were discussing the lawsuit with? And why parallel poker with pimps and prostitutes in that little vlog rant? Are you saying that because there is questions into the legality of online poker, that no one that plays poker or is associated in any way with online poker has any legal rights in the U.S., and can be screwed over at anytime by anyone? Anyone could be discredited (and I mean anyone), if there were not legal devices set in place to keep that from happening. Aardhart is also right about the fact that no court is going to allow a civil proceeding on anti-trust to become a forum into the legality of something that isn't even relevant. Sounds to me like the WPT attorneys are blowin' smoke up Daniels rear end. Or, he has some really stupid lawyer friends.

[TulaneFlyr 0]

I have posted on certain other threads about the validity of the arguments on both sides. I think, as there is such a disparity, the best and most reasonable solution is to bring in a third party, like a judge or the courts, to make that declaratory judgment. I believe that this dispute will only achieve the doomsday predictions Daniel has made if the negative mudslinging between the pros and the WPT publicly continues. I would suggest that both sides leave it to the lawyers to sort out, but honestly, I see flashbacks of caddyshack II. I think that Daniel needs to distinguish between what the players involved in the suit have SAID, and what they have DONE. The 7 did not file a class action. According to Raymer on 2+2, that was done to avoid the pain in the buttocks class certification process. But ultimately, while they can say, and are saying, that they are acting for all poker players, their suit is SPECIFICALLY only them. Daniel should at least acknowledge that distinction, even if he wants to portray that difference in a negative light. Further, I would almost BEG Daniel to look at the suit and agree that a policy of making someone sign the release AFTER they paid their money, with the threat of forfeit, is wrong. I believe it would make him look more intelligent and honestly, thoughtful about this situation. Finally, I have pushed this before, and I reiterate it here. I think that Daniel needs to lay off the personal attacks. Calling them pimps, criminals, questioning imigration status, previewing the mudslinging that he anticipates. By questioning their motives and their pasts, it begs his motives and past. I don't know his past, but as I have pointed out before, EVERYONE has things in their past that they aren't proud of. As for motives, I thought about this quite a bit recently. Who benefits the most from the status quo remaining the same? The WPT and its future assigns, as they have unlimited power on poker player likeness right usage. But who REALLY benefits? Daniel is concerned about public inquiry into online poker sites. Could that be because of the financial success of FCP? I don't question Daniel's motives as purely in the best spirit of the game, but he does stand to benefit financially by things continuing as they are. That being said, does Daniel insinuate that these other pros, all with online site affiliation, stand to benefit by further government scrutiny into the online poker situation? The 7 are COLLECTIVELY lost, knowing that they will lose large potential future profits in the online poker industry by their OWN actions? EVERYONE involved in this is well counseled. They know what they are doing. That being said, I don't question anyone's ulterior motives. The Players motives are to get a court to order what their lawyers have already interpreted - that the releases are unenforceable and invalid, so that the players can be free to protect their own intellectual property, and to support the continued growth of the industry. The WPT's motives are to maintain the legality of that release, so that they can continue to stockpile likeness rights, and to support the continued growth of the industry. Daniel's motives are to support the best interests of the game, and to support the continued growth of the industry. I hope they all succeed, well except for the WPT in stealing intellectual property for no money, but that is my opinion. Flame on!

[Muck, You Suckers! 0]

Daniel's motives are to support the best interests of the game, and to support the continued growth of the industry.

I don't buy that crap for one minute. Daniel's best interests are his own interests. He's doing well in the online poker business and he is afraid it's gonna get messed up. Yet he is doing more to shine the light on it than any of the 7 players involved in the suit. If anyone from the DOJ or IRS is monitoring all this, he'll incriminate himself. And I believe that is exactly what some of the players meant about him needing to keep his mouth shut and not ranting on and on about it in public forums, and (for crying out loud) public accessed videos!!!!! Pimps and prostitutes? A whole lot of people have talked their way into trouble there Mr. Pimp Daddy. Some of your smart lawyer friends should have informed you that the "right to remain silent" is the most important one. It's called self incrimination, and anything you have said in these forums and on those videos could be used against you at a later time. The cops read you the "Miranda Warning" to make those in their custody aware of those rights. But , you need not be in custody to have everything you say used against you in a court of law. So maybe it would be wise to not worry bout the business of those seven players and take care of your own.

[canadapoker5 0]

As may people have said their own piece on this subject, I have been sitting here reading the posts and now I think it is time I add my perspective on this. Personally, I do understand that everyone has reasons for doing what they do, I just think that is a poor way to illustrate a point. The main point is, that you do not agree with the way the WPT condust business (because as I understand the WSOP is not mentioned, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) then DO NOT SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE!. Some people may have already done that, which brings me to my next point.Let`s says there are people like the 7 who have been a part of the WPT for a period of time and just do not like the way things are heading. This way I say this way a poor decision because I agree with Daniel in that, for their concerns to be considered legitimate and teated serious, a larger group would have made it easer. People involved with the WPT would have been more inclined to listen so concerns to avoid decline in revenue. television interest and player numbers in these tournament.I just feel that the way the situation has been told, that although these players may have a point that there are trying to get across in the lawsuit, to use a poker term, it seems to me like there are "drawing dead" in any hope of winning.And Daniel, I hope I get the chance to meet you one day. You have made many valid points and if I ever wanted someone in my corner, you would be a wonderful friend to have

[DerekTah 0]

Ok, I didnt mean to make it sound like if the lawsuit goes through it is going to push the bill through. What I was trying to say is that this lawsuit is going to spotlight every other issue there is on poker itself, including the online community. Oh and "when would a ok time to sue the WPT be anyways,"........NEVER. Their not going to win, as much as I would like them to, they wont.If you think that this lawsuit is going to have no effect upon any other issue surrounding poker, your a complete moron. And maybe the bill would pass through on its own without the spotlight, but with it, I almost guarentee it will. Once everyone sees the dirt that is brought up against these players, its going to kill poker.

So how do you have this magical power to know that the players will not win in any way?Why is the dirt brought up against these players going to kill poker. Hell, who do most people mention as one of the best tournament players, Stu Unger. Lets see it well know that Stu had ties to the mob and then a huge drug and gambling habit that killed him. That didn't kill poker. But as soon as we find out one of the players made a deal at a final table or something that its for poker?I may believe this suit can have an effect on another issue, but I need that issue named, not just fear mongering about "Oh no there going to be dirt at a player and then thats it for poker". Now if one of these players has known ties to something illegal, maybe then I can see your point. Even then its speaks more on the player and not poker in general.

[ROGUE06 0]

It's truly great to hear both sides of this argument. Even though I am totally against what the 7 players are trying to do against the WPT. I am very interested seeing both sides. For the past few hours, I have been reading over what Lederer is commenting about how he has been done wrong by WPT in the FTP chat. Then you hear the majority of poker's attitude against the lawsuit on FCP as DN speaks his mind. Lederer seems as if he is just losing what made him so much more human and less of a business man which he's been for the past 2 years.

[Aardhart 0]

A better approach than a lawsuit, would have been to bring together 500 to 1000 players to put pressure on the WPT by threatening not to play in the events unless certain changes were made. This would have been a much more effective strategy than these seven trying to sue for damages.

This strategy is not precluded by the lawsuit. The WPA can still do this (if the cats can be herded) and put extreme pressure (boycott + lawsuit) on the WPT to change its release.

[aucu 3]

The fact that the WPT has held hard and fast to the release as is stands raises a big red flag. They have had more then enough time to be reasonable.Let the suits fly, then sit down and work it out.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

This strategy is not precluded by the lawsuit. The WPA can still do this (if the cats can be herded) and put extreme pressure (boycott + lawsuit) on the WPT to change its release.

In order to organize a boycott, you need a smoking gun. We need to have an example of a situation where the WPT innapropriately used a players name and likeness. Putting a clip of THEIR show in a video game does NOT qualify as crossing the line in anyway. Anyone who was "offended" by that, or GENUINELY feels as though by having that clip in the game cost them any money whatsoever in other deals they may have, or will make, have lost touch with reality. To the 7: because they showed a two second clip of your mug in the intro credits, do you seriously feel abused? If so, there is no use continuing to talk about it, we are from two different worlds.