Raymer Responds Again..... In Star Jones Fashion "i Am A Lawyer!"

[CoreyBrown 0]

Dear all,I am in no way an english major or a relative of yours. I will try to speak in your "language" though while trying to "relate" to you.The WPT or "World Poker Tour" has made me millions. Since I am not an accountant you can not view those millions as a real number. But since I am not a mathamatician I can not replace millions with X either. At this point consider millions to be a variable representing a number higher and or lower than a million. Since I am not a stop watch, you can not view my stance on when I made that point as true. I am timeless and live in a void. I digress.**** I am not a repo man so I can't take any of this back. Onto my point. Daniel is onto something here. But since I am not a cartographer I actually don't know where here is.Sincerely/my opinion.insert name since I'm not real.

[ShortStacked 0]

DN was a **** for meddling, first of all he wasn't the one who were getting served nor was he suing so he should have no say in a matter as sensitive as this. I think Raymer acted like he should have, after all he is much more directly involved in this, which DN isn't even if he thinks he is.

Well, since the seven players involved and their lawyers are claiming their doing a good thing for "all players" and are acting on behalf of them, I think its only fair that Dan, a huge name in todays poker, should be allowed to say whatever he feels/likes relating to the case, considering he falls under the category of "all poker players"..does he not?All hes said, more or less, so far is that these seven aren't representing him or his views and that the whole ordeal isn't going to do exactly good things for poker.Though, I do think Dan should have taken the higher ground and bit his tongue and not said things about Raymer and breast feeding children in a third world country. He would of came out looking a lot better for it. But whats done is done I guess, though the post has been deleted its been quoted a few times and made aware to a hell of a lot of people. It may have been funny and all, I got a good laugh out of it, but he really shouldn't of reacted to Raymers comments in such a way, it just brought him down to his level.

I've seen the vloggs and they are by default something that reflects DN's personal view or feelings and shouldn't be treated like something else.

Agreed.

[zoo 0]

*DISCLAMER: I have no informed opinion one way or the other on this lawsuite*Now that that is out of the way, how many of the poker pros asked these 7 players to file this lawsuit 'for them'? This sounds a bit like some other work that a certain country has been doing in order to 'liberate' some people who didn't really ask to be. Nothing like someone stepping up to 'help' you when you didn't ask for it.

[Flack_attack 0]

Although i still respect Raymer as a player and as an ambassador to the game, it is really disappointing that he would make those remarks. Daniel is not just ranting about the suit blindly, he probably has had conversations with knowledgeable people, lawyers or not, about the details of the suit. Even if he hadn't, him not being an anti-trust lawyer should make him "stupid" or a "sock-puppet". I hope Greg and the others come to their senses or this could ugly.

[MaltiMignun 0]

DN (respectfully),I don't think you should have gotten involved in this lawsuit by stating your opinions on a widely viewed and very much public video blog. I completely understand and support your right to use it any way you'd like and would defend that right above and beyond everything else.I just don't think it was 1.) very smart to do so given it only brings MORE ATTENTION to the subject, the very thing you are worried about and 2.) Without confronting and discussing the matter with the 7 individuals first (assumming you didn't). It sounds like you only talked to Berman and your own lawyer friends.Regardless, I see your points and I agree with them for the most part, although I certainly agree with the plaintiffs that while they have some guarantees now their image/likeness won't be used by the WPT, what about if the entity is sold one day? In sports (and I'm including poker as a sport now), all you have is your likeness. Your talents are only a fraction of the business. In poker, not only do we put up the buy-ins to all the events without receiving any added money, but we are supposed to just give away our likeness rights for free without any question? I don't think so.You say the WPT made these players, and I agree, again, we should be grateful. But didn't ABC Monday Night Football make NFL stars? Didn't ESPN make Michael Jordan a star by showing the highlights on sportscenter night after night? Yes and yes, but does Michael Jordan just give away his likeness rights for free to the networks that broadcast him? ABSOLUTELY NOT.It is a symbiotic relationship and if you let one entitity feed on the other constantly without fighting for what's yours, that entity only becomes stronger in the long run and pretty soon, poker is not only fully-funded by the players, but are left endorsing things without compensation with their legal rights to their own image and likeness partially or fully owned by another entity. It's a dangerous, scary road to allow others to control something of that power, and while I agree the timing of this lawsuit COULD NOT be worse, the principles are sound.It is lawsuits like these that often pave the way for player rights, a possible union, and for getting leverage for the future of poker. If you sign everythig away without a fight, players will never make progress.But with respect, I do see your points, especially about not wanting to draw more attention to online poker and give politicians a 'new cause' to fight online poker (something that I'm sure motivated you speak out since you have your own online poker site). I don't think you nor Mr. Raymer are stupid, but now you have both resulted to childish antics. Him calling you stupid or implying so is out of line and the whole breast feeding thing....well funny, but come on, let's be adults. I appreciate your insights on this matter.Good luck in poker, life.

[Kid DynOmite 0]

All members of FCP are in one classroomTeacher: now, does anyone know how to solve this dispute between mr. negreanu and mr. raymer(several hands go up)Teacher: without resorting to violence(all hands go down except for 2)Teacher: Or childish name calling(the final two hands go down)

[Kantian 0]

DN (respectfully),I don't think you should have gotten involved in this lawsuit by stating your opinions on a widely viewed and very much public video blog. I completely understand and support your right to use it any way you'd like and would defend that right above and beyond everything else.I just don't think it was 1.) very smart to do so given it only brings MORE ATTENTION to the subject, the very thing you are worried about and 2.) Without confronting and discussing the matter with the 7 individuals first (assumming you didn't). It sounds like you only talked to Berman and your own lawyer friends.Regardless, I see your points and I agree with them for the most part, although I certainly agree with the plaintiffs that while they have some guarantees now their image/likeness won't be used by the WPT, what about if the entity is sold one day? In sports (and I'm including poker as a sport now), all you have is your likeness. Your talents are only a fraction of the business. In poker, not only do we put up the buy-ins to all the events without receiving any added money, but we are supposed to just give away our likeness rights for free without any question? I don't think so.You say the WPT made these players, and I agree, again, we should be grateful. But didn't ABC Monday Night Football make NFL stars? Didn't ESPN make Michael Jordan a star by showing the highlights on sportscenter night after night? Yes and yes, but does Michael Jordan just give away his likeness rights for free to the networks that broadcast him? ABSOLUTELY NOT.It is a symbiotic relationship and if you let one entitity feed on the other constantly without fighting for what's yours, that entity only becomes stronger in the long run and pretty soon, poker is not only fully-funded by the players, but are left endorsing things without compensation with their legal rights to their own image and likeness partially or fully owned by another entity. It's a dangerous, scary road to allow others to control something of that power, and while I agree the timing of this lawsuit COULD NOT be worse, the principles are sound.It is lawsuits like these that often pave the way for player rights, a possible union, and for getting leverage for the future of poker. If you sign everythig away without a fight, players will never make progress.But with respect, I do see your points, especially about not wanting to draw more attention to online poker and give politicians a 'new cause' to fight online poker (something that I'm sure motivated you speak out since you have your own online poker site). I don't think you nor Mr. Raymer are stupid, but now you have both resulted to childish antics. Him calling you stupid or implying so is out of line and the whole breast feeding thing....well funny, but come on, let's be adults. I appreciate your insights on this matter.Good luck in poker, life.

i kind of think you can say whatever you want in a video blog to your fans, as far as your opinions go. I kind of also think you're even more acceptable when you make sure they know that you're not a lawyer, its just your personal opinion.So i kind of think daniel is still a good guy, and I also kind of think that I haven't found a single poster here who has reasonable evidence as to why daniel should not be allowed to talk.I Don't think raymer is a ******, yet. I mean, he's no moneymaker. But I do think that it woudl be SMART if he kept his focus on the lawsuit instead of insulting daniel. As far as poker ambassadors go, pissing DN off probably isn't the best way to get support in the poker world.So in conclusion:stop telling people what they can and cant say. everyone has an opinion. everyone shares it. DN is no exception. No problem there.andGreg raymer is flirting with the line of douchebagism. If i were he, I would attach a poster of chris moneymaker to the inside of my armoire, and every morning I would open it up and remind myself that if i dont play my cards right, I could be that guy one day.-j

[MaltiMignun 0]

Did you even read my post?I said that I personally don't think he should have said anything, but that he's free to do so. Just my opinion.***I am not an expert on opinions***

[DanielNegreanu 141]

DN was a **** for meddling, first of all he wasn't the one who were getting served nor was he suing so he should have no say in a matter as sensitive as this. I think Raymer acted like he should have, after all he is much more directly involved in this, which DN isn't even if he thinks he is. I've seen the vloggs and they are by default something that reflects DN's personal view or feelings and shouldn't be treated like something else. However since DN has sucha big fanbase and most of it containing idiots with no real oppinions of thier own (unless DN says so) nor do they have the time to do thier own research so they just listen to DN, agree then flame on. Subjects, gossip or the oppinions of players as big as DN will be blown up to more of a "personal oppinion" and Raymer saw this. DN is a great, great pokerplayer but is selfcentered like few and really just a pompus ***. (sorry for misspelling some stuff, ME NO HABLA INGLES )Oh yea, since im not a religious man, i e poker is not my religion and DN is not one of my gods im therefore immune to any flames.

This does involve me in a big way. I am a poker player who makes my living playing poker. In my opinion, what these players are doing with this lawsuit with have a negative impact on the poker world. Why shouldn't I voice my opinion? The WPT isn't the enemy here, it's the seven players making the lawsuit.

*DISCLAMER: I have no informed opinion one way or the other on this lawsuite*Now that that is out of the way, how many of the poker pros asked these 7 players to file this lawsuit 'for them'? This sounds a bit like some other work that a certain country has been doing in order to 'liberate' some people who didn't really ask to be. Nothing like someone stepping up to 'help' you when you didn't ask for it.

If they genuinely wanted to do "what's best" for the poker players out there, maybe THEY should have asked the poker players if this is a war they wanted to fight? Maybe they should have consulted with me and the others, asking if we'd either like to be a part of it, or even ask for our opinions on what this will do to poker. They didn't. Instead, they appointed themselves "leaders of the players movement" without a vote, or without even listening to the public.

[FourFlusher 0]

They didn't. Instead, they appointed themselves "leaders of the players movement" without a vote, or without even listening to the public. Sounds like the Litigigeous Seven have a future in politics.

[Balloon guy 158]

If they genuinely wanted to do "what's best" for the poker players out there, maybe THEY should have asked the poker players if this is a war they wanted to fight? Maybe they should have consulted with me and the others, asking if we'd either like to be a part of it, or even ask for our opinions on what this will do to poker. They didn't. Instead, they appointed themselves "leaders of the players movement" without a vote, or without even listening to the public.

This is a good point.I see a lawyer somewhere in the background selling this lawsuit to these 7 guys to get his commision, making them maybe jump the gun a little. Lawyers are scum.

[dfmaicher 0]

This does involve me in a big way. I am a poker player who makes my living playing poker. In my opinion, what these players are doing with this lawsuit with have a negative impact on the poker world. Why shouldn't I voice my opinion? The WPT isn't the enemy here, it's the seven players making the lawsuit.

Hey Daniel,You make very valid points with every post that you make. The entire point of this forum and blog is to express your opinion. There shouldn't be any lockout to someone's opinion. The comments of the 7 players shouldn't be made with respect to everyone playing poker, becuase your right, you are a poker player, and in your opinion it ins't helping things.I think after such a long last month, don't spend to much energy on this though right now. It is a shame, because it seems this forum has turned into something built to insult people rather than a place to share opinions and remain in touch with you. I have been a memebr for a long time and read almost every day, but don't post that much.Finally, you are in tuch with the individuals at the center of all this. Maybe you can make a call, or have a lunch, and try and talk things out. No one wins an arguement, at best you can understand what the other person is trying to say, and just dissagree. You out of anyone can find stuff out.Take care, and congrats on one heck of an effort these past fews days. You were simply awesome.

[ShortStacked 0]

If they genuinely wanted to do "what's best" for the poker players out there, maybe THEY should have asked the poker players if this is a war they wanted to fight?

I agree. There really should be some sort of union for professional poker players, I mean you're all trying to make a living out of the game and now you've seven people trying to act on all your behalf and aren't paying any attention to those protesting their actions. Whats worse is that they're also trying to make you out as some sort of puppet for the WPT, when in actual fact its you who has poker/poker players best interest at heart.Unless the WPT are actually controlling you, which I doubt and would hate to be true..

Maybe they should have consulted with me and the others, asking if we'd either like to be a part of it, or even ask for our opinions on what this will do to poker. They didn't. Instead, they appointed themselves "leaders of the players movement" without a vote, or without even listening to the public.

Again, perhaps a union would be a good idea? At least there could be a ballot in relation to actions such as the current ones.Its an odd situation, they're trying to come across as the good guys, and perhaps in their own minds they are, but they're acting extremely ignorantly when faced with opposition.

[FileError404 0]

This does involve me in a big way. I am a poker player who makes my living playing poker. In my opinion, what these players are doing with this lawsuit with have a negative impact on the poker world. Why shouldn't I voice my opinion? The WPT isn't the enemy here, it's the seven players making the lawsuit. If they genuinely wanted to do "what's best" for the poker players out there, maybe THEY should have asked the poker players if this is a war they wanted to fight? Maybe they should have consulted with me and the others, asking if we'd either like to be a part of it, or even ask for our opinions on what this will do to poker. They didn't. Instead, they appointed themselves "leaders of the players movement" without a vote, or without even listening to the public.

Should Curt Flood have asked for everyones opinion when he single-handedly challenged and eventually changed Baseball's retarded Reserve Clause? I think not.This very much reminds of that. Back then lots of the STAR players ranted against him, cause they had cushy deals, but for the majority of players it was a terrible deal and ask the players of today what they think of Curt's lawsuit.Time will tell who's right.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

Actually Raymer, your post shows how close minded you can be. You state that there are only two options, either A) I'm stupid, or B) I'm a sock puppet for the WPT. You also state that I haven't studied the suit. You are wrong on all three fronts. First of all, I am not a lawyer but I have spoken to several lawyers about this case. Lawyers that I trust. Now maybe I'm "stupid" for trusting some of these lawyers, but I don't think so. Without the WPT you'd likely still be selling pieces of yourself to buy into events. That's not supposed to insult you, it's just the truth. The WPT is the key reason that poker has become such a big hit. We could argue that fact, but I just don't see how anyone could possibly argue that the WPT was the catalyst for the WSOP, online poker, and the huge fields we play in today. Frankly, as I've stated before, I really don't even care who is right or wrong in this case. It is my opinion, that everyone will lose because of this lawsuit. While you think you are doing the poker world a favor, I strongly believe that all of the negative attention is the last thing we need right now. Why do you care if the WPT made a deal with MGM/Mirage to hold only WPT events there? If you want to run a tournament, try the Wynn, Stratosphere, Luxor, Golden Nugget, Palms, Hard Rock Cafe, Barbary Coast, Gold Coast, Red Rock, Imperial Palace, Green Valley Ranch, the Orleans, or the hundreds of other casinos in Las Vegas that are available. Lastly, you guys just don't seem to see the bigger picture. Sure, you say this has nothing to do with PokerStars or online poker in any way, but man, it would be totally naive to think that that won't come up. That you will be put under major scrutiny concerning the legality of your relationship with PokerStars. It's going to happen, and the seven of you could potentially make us all suffer. With the legality of online poker making headlines today, the last think you should want is for some smug politician to find a "new cause."

Give em Hell Danny boy!

[Kid DynOmite 0]

This does involve me in a big way. I am a poker player who makes my living playing poker. In my opinion, what these players are doing with this lawsuit with have a negative impact on the poker world. Why shouldn't I voice my opinion? The WPT isn't the enemy here, it's the seven players making the lawsuit. If they genuinely wanted to do "what's best" for the poker players out there, maybe THEY should have asked the poker players if this is a war they wanted to fight? Maybe they should have consulted with me and the others, asking if we'd either like to be a part of it, or even ask for our opinions on what this will do to poker. They didn't. Instead, they appointed themselves "leaders of the players movement" without a vote, or without even listening to the public.

Gotta concur with daniel here. It's almost as if these 7 decided to be martyrs without asking any of the affected if that's what they wanted. Also, in all of Raymers attacks on Daniel he never actaully refutes the fact that the timing of this lawsuit could not be worse. From what I read he basically says, "Daniel is not a lawyer, therefore he is talking out of his arse and cannot bring up any valid points." Well, gotta agree with Daniel when he says that this view is very close minded.It doesn't take a lawyer to tell you that this thing could get really ugly really fast.ps i hope that Daniel gets to knock raymer around in another heads up duel sometime soon. :lol:jen harman, i love you btw.

[FourFlusher 0]

It doesn't take a lawyer to tell you that this thing could get really ugly really fast.But, only a lawyer would say that only lawyers may have an opinion.

[Kid DynOmite 0]

It doesn't take a lawyer to tell you that this thing could get really ugly really fast.But, only a lawyer would say that only lawyers may have an opinion.

[Oziumrules 0]

Daniel stated his opinion concerning the 7 vs WPT, thats it. He never called anyone out and never made any nasty remarks about Lederer, Raymer, Bloch or any of the 7. He just stated his opinion that the lawsuit was not a good choice and was very bad timing. Unfortunately Raymer has really put this lawsuit to the attention of everyone with his public slamming of Daniel as " an idiot & sock puppet". Raymer should have just said he disagreed with Daniel opinions and thats all, not publicly ridicule one the Pokers most popular players. Now the the fireworks are starting and this dumb lawsuit will just ignite the flames of the American government on really cracking down on online gaming...especially poker. These guys, especially Raymer, did not think how this lawsuit would impact online poker & the US Governments views on it.

[Player1 0]

1) Daniel has in fact stated over and over again, that he is NOT a legal expert2) Daniel has in fact based his argument largely on the idea that the lawsuit is bad for poker, as the more important point3) Raymer's comments on Daniels level of stupidity is NOT a reasonable level of communication4) IF the contracts are illegal, then wait to sue until WPT has actually used the likeness of the players in commercials or advertisements. IF WPT has come this far, they would stand for a serious slapping in court, given the claim that the release is illegal5) I suppose the exclusivity deal WPT holds with certain casino's is similar to Coca Cola or Pepsi holding an exclusivity deal with McDonalds, KFC or Wendys. As far as I understand Coca Cola holds such exclusivity deals. Why haven't they been sued? Could be because it is legal to make such deals. (there are assumptions in this clause, that should be corrected if someone else knows more about the business of selling soft drinks in america)6) It would help ease the issue, if the lawsuit was aiming only at protecting the players commercial rights7) A QUESTION for Daniel, as much as I do respect your opinion, I think it would be fair to ask you, to which extent you are involved with WPT - in other words - how many stocks or endorsement deals do you hold in WPT. Pennies does not matter, but if you hold significant amounts it would be of interest to the case.8) A QUESTION for Raymer's seven, which interests do you have in competing poker businesses to WPT?

[stevedar 0]

COLLUDER!!!

[PairTheBoard 0]

This is a copy of a post I made at 2+2:I think Greg should apologize to Daniel for this line,FossilMan said, "Daniel is out, glad to say"I think that's what really hurt Daniel's feelings. Friends can disagree about the lawsuit but they don't root for each other to fail in the tournament. It probably stung especially bad considering how Daniel must have felt right after being knocked out of the big one. Daniel's hurt feelings were evident in his immediate response when he lashed out in a post he quickly deleted. Daniel should apologize to Greg for that post - which I find so disrepectful to Raymer I don't care to repeat it here.Daniel had said that if there is any evidence of the WPT abusing their Rights he will reconsider his opinion on the lawsuit. It looks to me like such evidence is being presented in sections 57 and 58 of the Complaint.From the Complaint: Link to Complaint===================57. For example, WPTE markets the "World Poker Tour" video game which competes with, among other things, the "World Championship Poker" line of video games co-Plaintiffs Howard Lederer, Annie Duke and Greg Raymer each have licensed to Crave Entertainment, Inc - which manufactures and sells the "World Championship Poker" video games - the exclusive right to use their names, likenesses, images in conjunction with Crave video games. WPTE, however, upon information and belief, has used video footage of Messrs. Lederer and Raymer and Ms Duke playing in the WPT tournament as part of its "World Poker Tour" video game. The co-Plaintiffs were never notified by WPTE of this fact, nor did they receive any compensation for WPTE's coercive use of their intellectual property rights.58. Another example is provided by WPTE's exploitation of the intellectual property rights of co-Plaintiff Phil Gordon, who is the founder and Chief Executive Officer of Expert Insight, a company which markets instructional poker DVD's and books among other things. In connection with Expert Insight, Mr. Gordon and co-Plaintiff Andrew Bloch run the "Las Vegas Academy" poker fantasy camp, where interested poker and blackjack players can pay for instruction from Messrs. Gordon and Bloch. WPTE runs its own poker fantasy camp - "World Poker Tour Boot Camp" - which is a head-to-head competitor with the Las Vegas Academy. Upon information and belief, WPTE has used video footage of Mr. Gordon playing in WPT tournaments - without his prior knowledge or any compensation - to promote its World Poker Tour Boot Camp.=====================I really can't see why WPTE should be granted such Broad Rights to Player names and Images that go beyond promotion of the actual Tournament Production. Technically, I don't think they should even have the right to a player's name and image to promote a show unless he is actually in that particular Tournament. I hope the Court agrees and limits them to that venue. If they want a player to help them promote one of their other products then they should have to negotiate with that player just like everybody else. Can you imagine the NBA selling basketballs signed by Michael Jordon and not having to pay him?btw, The WPT is doing better financially than has been reported on this 2+2 thread. From the News Archives at Card Player:"World Poker Tour Enterprises (WPTE) has turned a profit of $2.6 million in this year’s second financial quarter. In the same quarter last year, the company lost $0.4 million.Revenues increased because WPTE delivered 10 episodes of the WPT and nine episodes of its new show, the Professional Poker Tour, this quarter. WPTE delivered eight episodes of the WPT the same quarter last year and no episodes of PPT last year. The PPT began airing on the Travel Channel in July.WPTE lost $1.4 million in Q4 of last year and $5 million for all of 2005. In the first quarter of this year, the company made $3.6 million"Looks like the WPT is up $6.2 million so far this year.I really don't see the Downside that Daniel is worried about. He says that the issue of the Online Sites will get dragged into the case. I think Raymer claimed it won't. I don't see why it shouldn't. WPT wants to promote its own site and the players certainly can't afford to let go of their intellectual property rights in that area. That's really the big enchillada. So bring it. This is a Civil Case. It's not up to a Civil Court to get involved with whatever the Senate might be up to in their deliberations over the online gambling bill. As far as exposure goes, I think everybody knows about the online sites already.PairTheBoard btw, good luck in the Bellagio 10k tourny Daniel.Not much chance of it getting televised though I guess

[bleacherbum3 9]

You know what's to blame for all of this? That damn flush that Raymer made on the 2004 ME!Otherwise, Mikey woulda knocked him out right there and 75% of the poker world wouldn't know who Raymer was.

[PairTheBoard 0]

Link to Lawsuit Complaint

[Eleusis 2]

All members of FCP are in one classroomTeacher: now, does anyone know how to solve this dispute between mr. negreanu and mr. raymer(several hands go up)Teacher: without resorting to violence(all hands go down except for 2)Teacher: Or childish name calling(the final two hands go down)