I Know You Guys Love Folding Kk

[XX44466XX 0]

Not in this situation.

[mtdesmoines 3]

the reason its reasonable to fold is that the skilled players can get back the $1800 fairly easily in a better spot. I mean if TK only had $3800 in chips left after his $1800 its fair to say he is pot committed but if he has $6000+ its fair to say he can get it back. Only if you think you are LESS skilled than the table should you 'insta-call' this hand. Otherwise, pick a better spot and get them back.

I don't agree. How many times are you going to be in a "better spot" than KK preflop? Are you gonna fold K high flush, second nut straight, and the second nut set, too, if someone puts you all in? You think he's going to be able to tread water with 3800, and find a place to nut up AND get a caller?

[RayPowers 0]

Regarding Thomas's hand:Many pros in general like to play the "go big or go home" mentality with tournaments like this. With the amount of online qualifers and just plain bad play that can pop up even in the Main Event, I think without having a super strong read on this player that he's a total donk jumping up and down advertising he has aces, it's an easy call. You are 65-70% to win vs AK, and 80%= vs all other hands. This is a good time to get your money in the pot. Ray

[timwakefield 68]

Okay FWIW I really smelled AA, but I called and he flipped 88. I thought this would be more of a debate, guess not.

[JadeTiger 0]

I don't agree. How many times are you going to be in a "better spot" than KK preflop? Are you gonna fold K high flush, second nut straight, and the second nut set, too, if someone puts you all in? You think he's going to be able to tread water with 3800, and find a place to nut up AND get a caller?

That is a completely different situation. KK is just one pair. There are a million better spots than being all-in preflop with anything, even AA. I mean any pair is only 4-1 underdog preflop against AA. How many times do you put yourself in a position POST flop to have your opponents drawing dead. There are a lot. For instance, if you pick up KK in the BB in the first hand of the ME and the UTG raises to $150 the player behind him raises to $500 it folds to you and you raise to $1500 then the OB moves in. How do you like your KK now? Im just saying there is a better spot than going broke preflop when its likely the other guy has AA. Obviously if he has QQ you want to get it in with him but you can't know that for sure. There are a ton of other situations where you have more information. Seeing a flop gives you a lot more valuable info. I dont know how many times I got it in preflop with a guy on a two outer and wished I had just seen a flop so I could have played the hand differently. That is all.Sometimes there is nothing anyone can do and its just going to be AA against KK but generally you dont want to get crazy with one pair until you are either pot committed or sure you have the best of it.

[matt21sz 0]

It is always going to be a tough fold but considering the guy moved in for 10x the previous raise Id say fold. I mean even if the guy has AK why do I want a three outer looming on my tournament life. Id much rather get in a situation where I have less pressure against my big hand. I completely understand the call but folding here would leave Thomas with plenty of chips to keep playing. It sounds like the blinds were 50/100 or so, so it doesnt seem right to go broke this early even with a hand as strong as KK. Again, Im not saying it wouldnt be extremely difficult to get away from but I can see a better spot to get all my money in...like maybe post flop when I have more info. If thomas was short stacked then you put it in and pray but otherwise let your skill get back that $1800 ... i mean two kings are just that...two kings.

How many times during the course of a tournament can you find yourself in a better spot than having your opponent drawing to three outs?? Not often. 99.99% of the time you will blind yourself off waiting for those ever elusive quad aces...only to have a guy river you with a straight flush. To win a tournament, you actually have to try and win it.

[JadeTiger 0]

How many times during the course of a tournament can you find yourself in a better spot than having your opponent drawing to three outs?? Not often. 99.99% of the time you will blind yourself off waiting for those ever elusive quad aces...only to have a guy river you with a straight flush. To win a tournament, you actually have to try and win it.

Im not saying to fold EVERY time you are faced with a lot of action. My point is with KK id much rather see a flop and if an Ace falls, get out. Im not saying I wouldnt want to be in with AK against my KK either. Im saying Ive seen AK crack KK so many times Id much rather move in on AK on a flop with no Ace and the hand is 60% complete. Thats all. Im just saying the better players dont have to ram and jam preflop and hope to have their hands hold up. Post flop play is imperative to be successful in these deep/large tourneys. The better players can dump KK here and wait for a better spot. Now, Ray's point is a good one, and yes with some random donkey it would make this fold even harder and im not saying I would fold but I simply think folding is reasonable. I can see how folding can save your tournament. Its a tough lay down but not impossible and not unreasonable.

[TB17 0]

I refuse to fold KK online.

[JadeTiger 0]

I refuse to fold KK online.

This just made me laugh. Im not really sure. Maybe its because your response is short and to the point and seemingly full of conviction.

[Actuary 3]

Okay there always seem to be rampant discussions about how and when you guys make these genius laydowns of KK preflop. So here's the situation last night: who folds KK here? Fairly early in a $20 tournament.

I got that far.really, didn't have to..but I wanted to make sure we weren't mortgaging the house or staking our left nut.now I'll go back and read some ridiculous responses I'm certain.Many will be telling about the awesome read they had.this will be fun, not really.

[XX44466XX 0]

Better to go out with Kings anyways than like a punk little bitch, especially online for $20.Maybe one guy shows Aces; maybe both QQ-who knows till you MAKE THE CALL.

[Actuary 3]

Jade,you and others have a big misconception about how much of an edge the "pros" have.folding KK preflop is almost always wrong and it's silly not to want to play all in preflop.you seem to think the Brunsons of the world can just take pots down at will.it's just not like that.their edge is not so great as to ever pass up KK vs AK knowingly.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1- That is a completely different situation. KK is just one pair. There are a million better spots than being all-in preflop with anything, even AA. 2- I mean any pair is only 4-1 underdog preflop against AA. How many times do you put yourself in a position POST flop to have your opponents drawing dead. There are a lot. 3- For instance, if you pick up KK in the BB in the first hand of the ME and the UTG raises to $150 the player behind him raises to $500 it folds to you and you raise to $1500 then the OB moves in. How do you like your KK now? 4-Im just saying there is a better spot than going broke preflop when its likely the other guy has AA. 5-Obviously if he has QQ you want to get it in with him but you can't know that for sure. There are a ton of other situations where you have more information. Seeing a flop gives you a lot more valuable info. I dont know how many times I got it in preflop with a guy on a two outer and wished I had just seen a flop so I could have played the hand differently. That is all. Sometimes there is nothing anyone can do and its just going to be AA against KK but generally you dont want to get crazy with one pair until you are either pot committed or sure you have the best of it.

1- Actually ... I partly agree with what you're saying. But I have no ME experience and I can't say what people push with. In a lot of tournaments, you'd be surprised what people push with, though. KK is an auto-call in any tournament. For the sake of argument, let's say you're in a cash game and have multiplied your buy-in by a factor of ten. Do you call an all-in with your KK? I don't. Like you are saying, I wait for a better spot. A better bet. But this is a tournament. The whole point is getting and building a stack. The subject of this post was (I think) getting short-stacked. KK with a caller is all in time. If you lose, you lose. Chances are fair that you're going to lose the ME anyway. 2. I don't know that I can agree with this ... you have KK, and the flop comes Q 7 2. What do you do if you the villian had just called your preflop bet and is now pushing in. Do you call here only to look down as your opponent turns over his set of 2s?3. If *I* pick up KK in the first hand of the ME, I'm comfortable going all in with it. If someone beats my hand .... well .... gosh ..... ..... ..... that's life I guess. But if you fold your KK, and he accidentally flips over a JJ as he mucks, how are you going to feel about it? 4. My point is that in tournament poker, I don't agree that it's *likely* that the villian has AA. Possible; but not likely.5. The ME is full of good players. They're not going to let you evaluate flops and they're not going to make huge calls on your bets when you flop powerful hands. Your strategy will starve you out of the ME on day one. Again, it's my opinion that the player who is the subject of the thread was getting short-stacked. You fold KK when you're short-stacked, and .... I don't know what you are doing.

[XX44466XX 0]

1- Actually ... I partly agree with what you're saying. But I have no ME experience and I can't say what people push with. In a lot of tournaments, you'd be surprised what people push with, though. KK is an auto-call in any tournament. For the sake of argument, let's say you're in a cash game and have multiplied your buy-in by a factor of ten. Do you call an all-in with your KK? I don't. Like you are saying, I wait for a better spot. A better bet. But this is a tournament. The whole point is getting and building a stack. The subject of this post was (I think) getting short-stacked. KK with a caller is all in time. If you lose, you lose. Chances are fair that you're going to lose the ME anyway. 2. I don't know that I can agree with this ... you have KK, and the flop comes Q 7 2. What do you do if you the villian had just called your preflop bet and is now pushing in. Do you call here only to look down as your opponent turns over his set of 2s?3. If *I* pick up KK in the first hand of the ME, I'm comfortable going all in with it. If someone beats my hand .... well .... gosh ..... ..... ..... that's life I guess. But if you fold your KK, and he accidentally flips over a JJ as he mucks, how are you going to feel about it? 4. My point is that in tournament poker, I don't agree that it's *likely* that the villian has AA. Possible; but not likely.5. The ME is full of good players. They're not going to let you evaluate flops and make huge calls when you flop powerful hands. Your strategy will starve you out of the ME on day one. Again, it's my opinion that the player who is the subject of the thread was getting short-stacked. You fold KK when you're short-stacked, and .... I don't know what you are doing.

ME is a different sit, we were talking about a $20 online MTT I thought...

[JadeTiger 0]

Jade,you and others have a big misconception about how much of an edge the "pros" have.folding KK preflop is almost always wrong and it's silly not to want to play all in preflop.you seem to think the Brunsons of the world can just take pots down at will.it's just not like that.their edge is not so great as to ever pass up KK vs AK knowingly.

first of all i never said you should pass up AK vs KK knowingly. I said id rather see a flop to gather more info if im unsure of my opponents holdings. I completely disagree about your point about a pros edge. That is why they consistently make final tables and do this for a living. It is because of their edge! If you listen to DN's latest blog he started just playing ever hand because the players were so bad and he picked players off left and right because of his edge. He outplayed players out of a ton of pots. That is what I am saying. There are better spots to get back my $1800. AGAIN Im not saying I would fold here, all Im saying is that it is a reasonable fold.

[TB17 0]

This just made me laugh. Im not really sure. Maybe its because your response is short and to the point and seemingly full of conviction.

It's just that everytime I even THINK about it, I end up calling and being ahead. It's not because of the stakes or anything like that, Ive folded KK in a $5 live game with my friends, only because he was so drunk and I was 90% sure from the way he was acting that he had it. People online just make plays that are mindboggling, until I run into Aces 100 times in a row, im not folding. It won't happen.

[mtdesmoines 3]

It's just that everytime I even THINK about it, I end up calling and being ahead. It's not because of the stakes or anything like that, Ive folded KK in a $5 live game with my friends, only because he was so drunk and I was 90% sure from the way he was acting that he had it. People online just make plays that are mindboggling, until I run into Aces 100 times in a row, im not folding. It won't happen.

Just $5? That's another auto call. Get me the money, or get me home.

[JadeTiger 0]

1- Actually ... I partly agree with what you're saying. But I have no ME experience and I can't say what people push with. In a lot of tournaments, you'd be surprised what people push with, though. KK is an auto-call in any tournament. For the sake of argument, let's say you're in a cash game and have multiplied your buy-in by a factor of ten. Do you call an all-in with your KK? I don't. Like you are saying, I wait for a better spot. A better bet. But this is a tournament. The whole point is getting and building a stack. The subject of this post was (I think) getting short-stacked. KK with a caller is all in time. If you lose, you lose. Chances are fair that you're going to lose the ME anyway. 2. I don't know that I can agree with this ... you have KK, and the flop comes Q 7 2. What do you do if you the villian had just called your preflop bet and is now pushing in. Do you call here only to look down as your opponent turns over his set of 2s?3. If *I* pick up KK in the first hand of the ME, I'm comfortable going all in with it. If someone beats my hand .... well .... gosh ..... ..... ..... that's life I guess. But if you fold your KK, and he accidentally flips over a JJ as he mucks, how are you going to feel about it? 4. My point is that in tournament poker, I don't agree that it's *likely* that the villian has AA. Possible; but not likely.5. The ME is full of good players. They're not going to let you evaluate flops and make huge calls when you flop powerful hands. Your strategy will starve you out of the ME on day one. Again, it's my opinion that the player who is the subject of the thread was getting short-stacked. You fold KK when you're short-stacked, and .... I don't know what you are doing.

This last thing you said is a completely untrue. Most of the ME players are online qualifiers, a ton of which have never stepped foot in a casino and it is their first live tournament experience. With 8000+ players there is no way it is FULL of good players. If I am as skilled as TK im going to take my chances later, unless of course you are short stacked or just looking for a spot to double up. But if Im in the first days of the ME im looking to survive. Accumulating chips is key yes but surviving is more important. Now for TK he may not be in that mindset and may truly think, go big or go home. If thats the case then more power to him but I personally definitely at least consider folding. Im not saying I DO fold but I make a reasonable decision and one of the options IS folding.

[Actuary 3]

first of all i never said you should pass up AK vs KK knowingly. I said id rather see a flop to gather more info if im unsure of my opponents holdings. I completely disagree about your point about a pros edge. That is why they consistently make final tables and do this for a living. It is because of their edge! If you listen to DN's latest blog he started just playing ever hand because the players were so bad and he picked players off left and right because of his edge. He outplayed players out of a ton of pots. That is what I am saying. There are better spots to get back my $1800. AGAIN Im not saying I would fold here, all Im saying is that it is a reasonable fold.

Jade,listen closely.Say, AK is willing to be all in preflop vs your KK, it is a horrible poker decision on your part to prefer to see a flop first.HorribleDo U C Y ?And you are wrong about the massive edge Daniel has.Sure, over some but not over decent amatuers.Yeah, it's an edge, but not big enough to fold KK preflop under normal tourney circumstances.Among 1000's of pros you will always find some doing well over a span of time; just like Mutual Fund Managers. Some skill some variance.

[TB17 0]

Just $5? That's another auto call. Get me the money, or get me home.

Lol there was no way it was anything but AA. You didn't see him that night

[XX44466XX 0]

This thread makes me sleepy.

[timwakefield 68]

It's just that everytime I even THINK about it, I end up calling and being ahead. It's not because of the stakes or anything like that, Ive folded KK in a $5 live game with my friends, only because he was so drunk and I was 90% sure from the way he was acting that he had it. People online just make plays that are mindboggling, until I run into Aces 100 times in a row, im not folding. It won't happen.

Never say never. I would probably never fold it online vs one opponent though. If there are multiple raises/pushes, in some situations you can deduce that somebody probably has AA.

[Scott3705 0]

What does that even mean?

Just that I have found situations where I found it right to fold KK preflop and have done it and also feel that it's right to do it in certain situations. A lot of people think it's always wrong... I'm not one of those people.

[Shizzmoney 0]

All you have to do is call and regardless what he has, just flop a King like usual

Or you can do what I did in a 20 dollar live tournament last night......what you do is after a raise on the button to 600, you re-raise to 1500. Then when the guy re-raises all-in for 4500 total, you just call and get it in as a 16% overdog....then all you have to do is cackle when the King hits on the river to make 3 of a kind. It's no sweat!

[JadeTiger 0]

1. Say, AK is willing to be all in preflop vs your AK, it is a horrible poker decision on your part to prefer to see a flop first.HorribleDo U C Y ?And you are wrong about the massive edge Daniel has.Sure, over some but not over decent amatuers.2. Yeah, it's an edge, but not big enough to fold KK preflop under normal tourney circumstances.Among 1000's of pros you will always find some doing well over a span of time; just like Mutual Fund Managers. Some skill some variance.

1. When did I ever say I want to see a flop with AK?2. Did I say we were talking about normal tourney circumstances? I thought we were talking about when a player limp reraises utg? thats not normal. Normally that only happens when someone wakes up with a big hand UTG. Obviously if you are just faced with a raise and a reraise its almost always called but in this circumstance a player limp-reraised all-in.

Just that I have found situations where I found it right to fold KK preflop and have done it and also feel that it's right to do it in certain situations. A lot of people think it's always wrong... I'm not one of those people.

ok I figured thats what you meant it was just worded weird.