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What Would You Rather Know?


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Here is my thinking. In poker there are ways to get better at reading what your oponent has, by practice, analyzing betting patterns, etc. So with skill you can make good estimates as to what they have. However, there is no way, with skill, to know what the board will be. Thus, the skilled player, who can already figure out, at least partially, what their opponent has, but can have no way of knowing what the board will be, would seem to benefit more in knowing what the final board will be.

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NL, i'd rather know opponents cards.Stud, I'd rather know the boards.LHE, it wouldn't matter if I saw their cards and the board, i'd still find a way to lose.
how has nobody pointed out how stupid the stud comment here is?
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Screech,.you seem to be thinking we are not going to see the board in the option where we see our opponents hand?The understanding among those that want to see the opponents hands is that we will see the flop-turn-river as they come, like normal.now you see why it aint close ?and I apologize that my analogy was written on an 8th grade level. It made sense to me.

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I took it too mean all future up cards; hence the plural.Scott's played a few handsbut I'm just a simple country actuary
Still, wouldnt it be 10x better to know all down cards, since then by 6th street you know exactly where you stand, and if you know much about math you can figure out what to play when. Also you could easily only play when youre ahead of everyone else.
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Still, wouldnt it be 10x better to know all down cards, since then by 6th street you know exactly where you stand, and if you know much about math you can figure out what to play when. Also you could easily only play when youre ahead of everyone else.
I'm just answering the why no one noticed thing..but that other stuff is beyond my 4:01am brainbut I like your thinking.
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Screech,.you seem to be thinking we are not going to see the board in the option where we see our opponents hand?The understanding among those that want to see the opponents hands is that we will see the flop-turn-river as they come, like normal.now you see why it aint close ?and I apologize that my analogy was written on an 8th grade level. It made sense to me.
In that case OPs question is braindead and this is a ridiculous topic. But:
Would you rather know your opponents' holdings, or what the board would look like?
implies that you can only see one or the other, so I think some of you guys are misinterpreting the original question.And I enjoyed your analagy :club: .
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Let me clarify....and only my wife can call me braindead.Here are your two choices:1. You know everybody's down cards....x-ray vision, cheat, accident, ESP...doesn't matter how....then you play the hand as per normal...preflop bet, see flop, bet, see turn, bet, see river, bet.Variants - you don't know their downcards until they put money in the pot, or until they themselves look at the downcards.2. You know what the final board cards are going to be - again, clairvoyance, cheating, magic genie, doesn't matter how. You still play normal, pf bet, see flop (which you already know), bet, turn, bet, river, bet - but when everyone is betting preflop, you know what the final board will look like.Scenario two becomes very difficult for games like draw and stud because your final hand (let alone everyone else's) will depend entirely on whether people correctly/incorrect fold at certain points, and whether or not they correctly/incorrectly draw the correct/incorrect number of cards.In a game like draw I think it's a no brainer - I want to know everyone else's cards, as opposed to what draw cards are coming.In stud, there's a third choice...do you want to know everyone's four upcards in advance? Or your own upcards in advance? Or everyone's downcards as they come?As far as hold'em....against multiple opponents I think it's easy - know their holdings.Heads up, even after all good points raised, I'm still on the fence, but leaning towards knowing their holdings....knowing their hands just provides too many opportunties to bluff, and eliminates the chance that you'll ever be bluffed....in the end I think that outweighs your opportunities to call against the odds when you know your draw is coming.

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In that case OPs question is braindead and this is a ridiculous topic. But:Would you rather know your opponents' holdings, or what the board would look like? implies that you can only see one or the other, so I think some of you guys are misinterpreting the original question.
nah.What the Board Would look like implies ESP. It does not imply you will never see the board in the other situation.but I"m not one to nit pickYour apology was sufficient.:club:
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nah.What the Board Would look like implies ESP. It does not imply you will never see the board in the other situation.but I"m not one to nit pickYour apology was sufficient.:club:
The other scenario is intriguing....you can see all your opponents' downcards at the expense of not seeing the board, ever.
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to me knowing hole cards is priceless...why would u want to even play limit...NL all the wayyou can outplay everyone on ever street... your behind pf and ur still behind on the flop but u can bluff at them because they may miss the flop which they will ...they can never get money from you you don't want them too... all weak hands you can steal from... that is so much more valuable than seeing the board... u will win both ways of course but you will win many more pots by knowing hole cardsyou can also suck more money and induce bluffs because you know exactly were they are in the hand... it seems obvious... if u see board you don't know for sure if ur ahead with small pairs and such...which will happen much more often than monsters...

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How funny would it be to choose to know the board, play in the Main Event at the WSOP final table, AND on NATIONAL TV have to fold A :) A :) when you find two opponents all in before you even get to act, knowing that the board of 10 :club: J :) J :D Q :D 9 :D cannot possibly allow your pocket Aces to win. I know this an extreme case.... but would you just go with it knowing you'll go bust just to save face on national television? Norman Chad would have a field day over this. " HE FOLDED ACES! I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I JUST SAW! I've made better decisions with WOMEN in my time..!!" How could you possibly explain this fold later on without getting tormented on every forum accross the internet tubes?I guess where I'm gettin at is... it might be better knowing your opponents cards so this scenario doesn't come up. A bad beat is a bad beat...Good thread. I think of irrelevant things like this all of the time.

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any1 who says they would rather know the board is just thinking about the big pots. Knowing your opponents hole cards would enable you to take every pot that an opponent couldnt fully commit to. i dont see how this is close

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Still, wouldnt it be 10x better to know all down cards, since then by 6th street you know exactly where you stand, and if you know much about math you can figure out what to play when. Also you could easily only play when youre ahead of everyone else.
It's easier to put some one on a hand in stud. Duh.
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lets say you have 62 and you know the board will be QT744, youre gonna fold. But if you have 62 and you know your opponent had J3, you can just winand to your what if you know he has QJ and i have A2, im folding cause i know what his cards are thus, i cant find MUCH MUCH MUCH better spots

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any1 who says they would rather know the board is just thinking about the big pots. Knowing your opponents hole cards would enable you to take every pot that an opponent couldnt fully commit to. i dont see how this is close
Obviously you don't....If you don't know the board, you can't gauge how good your hand is postflop. Like I said earlier, this is more of a consideration in limit since in nl, you can just play the odds pf by pushing any time you have an edge.
lets say you have 62 and you know the board will be QT744, youre gonna fold. But if you have 62 and you know your opponent had J3, you can just winand to your what if you know he has QJ and i have A2, im folding cause i know what his cards are thus, i cant find MUCH MUCH MUCH better spots
Youre folding A2 vs QJ? I guess youre talking about nl anyway, in which this poll is really no contest. With A2 vs QJ, you push pf. With any 2 carsd that your opponent cannot call, you push pf. And when he has somehting he will call with that beats you, you fold. But what about limit? The rules change a lot because you are going to have to play 3 postflop streets.
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Let's take some quick examples from tournament play: let's say you're 9-handed. You have JJ. You can see everybody's cards, and see that a guy with 88 raised, and is called by AT. Everybody else folds or clearly will fold, and you push all in and know that you are ahead. Or if you want you can call and bet on a flop when you are ahead.On another hand you see a flop of K83. You hold A8, which you raised because you could see it was the best hand at the table. Opponent bets, holding 77. You call, and proceed to milk him for a few more bets on the following streets. You are at a final table 4-handed. You have A3. Opponent raises with KT. You call. Flop comes J72. He bets, you raise, he calls. Turn J. He checks, you bet, he pushes, you smoke him. Who cares what the board is, those are shared cards. If you know what your opponents have you will never be behind, and you won't have to wait for the nuts to play. If you only know the board and you have AJ on what will be 24568 board, you won't know that Ace high is good against an all-in bet.

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Simple, someone else's hole cards. You would never get bluffed. You would know when to lay down your monsters. You would know how good their hand is and how much they'll pay you off. You would never make a -EV decision.Although, I wouldn't mind knowing the board either. But if I had a choice, it would be someone's cards.

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SCreech,quit drinking and posting.We're going to see the board as it comes, when we choose to see opponents cardsRemember..and you agreed it's clear and a braindead question.
hahaha, I know. I just think if we don't see the board and we are playing limit this is much more interesting (if we do see it as it comes, this question sucks).
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Obviously you don't....If you don't know the board, you can't gauge how good your hand is postflop. Like I said earlier, this is more of a consideration in limit since in nl, you can just play the odds pf by pushing any time you have an edge.Youre folding A2 vs QJ? I guess youre talking about nl anyway, in which this poll is really no contest. With A2 vs QJ, you push pf. With any 2 carsd that your opponent cannot call, you push pf. And when he has somehting he will call with that beats you, you fold. But what about limit? The rules change a lot because you are going to have to play 3 postflop streets.
NO way, not even close, if you had the gift of seeing everyone's hole cards, you should NEVER EVER EVER be all in preflop, i don't care if you have AA and the other guy has 23, there is no reason for you to risk chips preflop when you have such an advantage postflop. Also, there is no reason for you to bluff at any point, the risk is too great you will get called by some maniac. Your advantage REALLY comes after all cards are out and you know for sure when you have the best hand and can call bluffs with J high, etc.
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NO way, not even close, if you had the gift of seeing everyone's hole cards, you should NEVER EVER EVER be all in preflop, i don't care if you have AA and the other guy has 23, there is no reason for you to risk chips preflop when you have such an advantage postflop. Also, there is no reason for you to bluff at any point, the risk is too great you will get called by some maniac. Your advantage REALLY comes after all cards are out and you know for sure when you have the best hand and can call bluffs with J high, etc.
Joe,you're crazy. If you have an edge pf you would obviously make money using this strategy. Oh, and BTW, I was using the assumption that you don't get to see the board. I never thought the question "would you rather be able to see your opponents hole cards or play poker as is?" would ever get asked seriously and have so much pointless discussion.
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Joe,I never thought the question "would you rather be able to see your opponents hole cards or play poker as is?" would ever get asked seriously and have so much pointless discussion.
the option was see opponents hole cards, and the board as it comesvsSee entire board before it comes, but don't see opponents hole cards.some people just had trouble seeing that.
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