Poker Players Association

[HarryDemetriou 0]

I went to an interesting meeting the other day at The Bellagio concerning the setting up of an association for Poker players. However I found the suggestions a little too elitist but it got me thinking.We desperately need to establish a co-ordinated voice to represent the players.Unfortunately I am not well known or influential enough to be able to set something like this up but maybe DN is and maybe we can centre it around this website. (Apologies to DN for this suggestion without consultation as it is his site and I have absolutley no right to suggest this. Alternatively we could centre it around a poker sitre such as Full Tilt who in exhcange for the traffic generation may volunteer to fund the limited costs that may be associated with this venture).Anyway maybe this is a waste of time as it may never get off the ground but here is the basis of the idea that I have.How about we establish a free to join global body of poker players. The only proviso is that to join we all agree to abide by the decisons/directions of the ruling council which will be made up of a select group of persons who will establish the ground rules for whether or not we play in tournaments. As a memebr if the council decides we boycott an event then we agree not to play in it.I propose we have the council made up of (say) ten people representing the world of poker players.eg ten high profile names.They would decide what constituted a fair rake etc etc and when we come across tournaments where there were extortionate fees then we would agree not to play.I will propose the following as guidelines.2% of pools to be witheld for dealersRakes on a decreasing scale depending on buy in size along the lines of the WSOP ones.eg4% for $10k and $5K buy ins10% for less than $500 buy ins0% rake on rebuys in tournamentsIf any poker tournament organizer decided to exceed these rakes or buy in guidelines then no member of the association would agree to play.In time we may if large enough in numbers even be able to exert enough pressure to allow logo wearing as if we grew to several thousand in numbers we could in effect almost demand the facility to wear logos in televised events and agree logo sizes.I'm not sure if this could work or even if this can be administrated or co-ordinated but something has to be done and from tomorrow I'm going to try and canvass some support for this.I am quite prepared to maintain a huge e-mail list of all those interested but it's not going to be an easy task (BTW I would guarantee that absolutely nobody would have access to the membership e-mail address list) and try and notify everyone of council decisions and not to be supported tournaments but feel it is too big a task for an individual such as myself to undertake.Any comments or suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated but as I sadi before we have to do something because I fear that many will try and take further advantage of us as a group of poker players.Best RegardsHarry Demetriou

[Suited_Up 2]

Sounds like an interesting thought. Basically a players association for poker. So if they make a video game with poker likenesses, they have to get rights from the pppa (Professional Poker Players Association) like the MLBPA. Just an example. I'm not a professional, but it sounds like something that might have some benefits. Although poker is very much a personal game, that I'm not sure it has the same benefits as team sports and whatnot... but who knows.

[grdred944 0]

Interesting concept but what do you do when someone breaks the rules? For example, if I am in the Screen Actors Guild and accept work on a non-union production I can (and will) get blacklisted. If I adhere to the rules of this organization but at some point make a decision to play in a tournament that doesn't abide by the association's rules, what is the retribution? Other players calling me a 'scab?' Financially it doesn't hurt me at all and I've been called worse than 'scab.' I understand the motivation but don't agree with associations that try to impose rules on the masses based on what a handful of activists want -- regardless of how noble they may feel.I've said it before here and in other places. Poker is a game of supply and demand. If I can't get enough top-shelf players to come to my casino and play in a tournament because they adhere to these rules, I'll simply lower the buy-in and still get a couple hundred lower level players to come and play. Do I want the top-shelf players? Absolutely! Am I going to cave in to a handful of activists telling me how to run my poker room? Absolutely not. If the environment changes (re. supply and demand) maybe I have to play ball. But there are 'millions' of poker players and a handful of pros telling the rest of us (pros and amateurs) where to play and under what conditions, is not going to fly.Good post. Worthy of discussion.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

I couldn't agree with you more and would certainly agree that I would not want a handful of people dictacting what I could and couldn't do and fully accept that everyone is not going to be happy with this kind of proposal.BUT......We currently have absolutely no effective co-ordination or collective representation or voice.As far as punishment is concerned there couldn't possibly be anything other than expulsion from the group. People pay their own entry fees and as such can play in any events they wish regardless of what anybody else may think. However if enough people get together and agree a few basic things then maybe, just maybe, we can stop these escalating entry fees and juice being taken out of rebuys and such.OK so maybe the tournament operator will still get 300 players in a $500 buy in rebuy tournament but if they would have had 600+ players then it's going to send a strong message to others contemplating increased rake and fees for tournaments.Perhaps we could send a letter to these tournament operators stating that there were 500 players in our membership that would have played except for the fact that they were taking juice out of the rebuys?Maybe they ignore it but then maybe they will take note.There are also numerous other areas where we could exert pressure as a group.Perhaps there is even a case for including others in the poker world to the committee such as a tournament director, a poker dealer, Casino Rep or Television Producer eg Matt Savage, Steve Lipscombe and a Harrah's rep so that we can collectively agree on things like rake logo wearing etc etc or then again mabe the council liases with these others to see how we can negotiate mutually agreeable terms that we can all live with.The point is that I really do love playing this game and would hate to see it destroyed by the greed of certain individuals who appear to be exploiting the players.After all unlike every other sport we are responsible for putting up all the prize money (save for a few special added money events and the odd freeroll) but we get very few of the benefits as players from the television exposure.

[Suited_Up 2]

I have to agree with the aspect of the players not getting any benefit from all the TV coverage.. and maybe sometime in the future.. they will start to use some of the sponsorship money to add to the prize pool... because they're probably making millions off advertising alone, plus the juice, why aren't players getting the benefit of the new popularity?

[wingsfan 0]

Speaking as a poker fan, I think this would have a strong influence at least on televised events. People don't watch poker on TV to see a bunch of faces that they don't recognize.Just please don't start right up with a "poker lockout". I'm having enough problems adjusting to life without hockey. :wink:

[Smasharoo 0]

Never happen.Poker's just not that kind of game, it's too big. What do tournament organisers care if 100 pros agree not to play in a tournamnet when 2000 non pros will. How long are the pros not going to play in tournaments full of theoretically weaker competition.Poker's too mercinary for anything like this to ever work. Best you can hope for is for pros to get some sort of sponsorship deal that expempts them from buying in to some sort of "series" of events like WPT.

[theresa113 0]

I am a member of 3 poker associations. We have absolutely no clout. One association was form so we could play "league" games in Florida, because in Florida we have so many rules that prohibit play. It is called the United Poker Players Association. The only item of significance that has been discussed is voting in next years election. We wpould like to see Seminole County get a card room in one of the Para-Mutuals (Dog Track or Jai-Lai). We know it will be a very tough battle because a very political and strong Church is next to the two venues. I have also joined the World Amateur Poker Association as well as the Womens Poker Club. So far, I have not participated in any events nor have I seen any agenda except for game play.I think now, it is a buyers market. I noticed some online sites have higher rakes and I do not play them. I am sure this is the way it is for card rooms as well but I am not sure since I am all the way in Florida, far from your general card room. It's a good idea however, my level of play I would not see any benefit.

[ddudley 0]

Did anyone read the recent article in CardPlayer on this topic?Here's a link, please read this, it's great idea and must be implemented in the next 2 years or poker will suffer the consequences...http://cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archi....php?a_id=14376I would really like to see Daniel put his name behind this idea and see what can be done to get the ball rolling.

[ddudley 0]

Never happen.Poker's just not that kind of game, it's too big.  What do tournament organisers care if  100 pros agree not to play in a tournamnet when 2000 non pros will.  How long are the pros not going to play in tournaments full of theoretically weaker competition.Poker's too mercinary for anything like this to ever work.  Best you can hope for is for pros to get some sort of sponsorship deal that expempts them from buying in to some sort of "series" of events like WPT.

I disagree, you could say the same thing about golf. But, if the top 200 pro's don't show up for a tournament no one is going to watch and therefore the TV broadcast is not going to sell any ads.Have you seen the braodcasts where they blackout or tape over logos on shirts and hats? You don't see this happening in Golf? The players need to take the power back. Players derive income from endorsements, we must be allowed to have them shown on TV. This is income the broadcasters are stealing from the players!! :evil:

[theresa113 0]

Have you seen the braodcasts where they blackout or tape over logos on shirts and hats? You don't see this happening in Golf? The players need to take the power back. Players derive income from endorsements, we must be allowed to have them shown on TV. This is income the broadcasters are stealing from the players!

Never thought of it this way. Good point. I have been amazed at the small amount of marketing with pro poker players. Even though there really isn;t any special equipment or clothes, there are still many endorsement deals that can be made besides online poker sites. An association could help to protect the players.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

OK So maybe I'm being a little idealistic but then I feel that I should try and put something back into poker as I enjoy playing it so much and becasue to date it's been good to me.Perhaps then the answer lies in communicating with all concerned parties from the casnos to tournament directors to tv producers.When the WPT proposed the PPT series a stipulation was that invited players could not participate in rival series or league events. (I interpreted this as not being able to play in the WSOP league events).However to the credit of most of the better known poker players they wuickly told the WPT that this was an unacceptable and restrictive clause and it was soon dropped.Perhaps then some of the bigger names such as Daniel (sorry to keep volunteering you) along with say Howard Lederer John Juanda etc etc or any other group of players who feel able and willing to sacrifce their time could get together with Harraha ESPN and Steve Lipscombe and have a meeting where they can discuss some broad issues like why the players can and can't wear logos at final tables and in various events. Perhaps they could also discuss what is and isn't acceptable in terms of rake and perhaps the outcome of such a meeting or meetings could be printed in Card Player magazine.After all the tournament directors got together and sorted out a bunch of rules which appeared in Card Player so is it too much to expect a similar thing for my suggestion above?I'm sure Card Player would be willing to donate the magazine space to such an article.

[devidee 0]

Harry,I agree with the major topics you are bringing up and for the most I think your ideas are very promising. IMO the problems have stemmed from the WPT being the only game in town. I think with the advent of Harrahs now making these new WSOP events things will improve. If the WSOP allows players to wear logos and the WPT does not and they both hold tournaments on the same weekend where are the players going to play? By having these two enterprises competing with each other (and for top notch players) hopefully the players will benefit in the long run. That being said, I do think an association with some clout needs to be organized for the good of poker in the long run.

[theresa113 0]

Harry,At first, I did not understand your point, probably because I was thinking on my level of play. But then I began to think of the benefits of an association and where the greatest protection must lie and that is marketing.I am so surprised that some great Hollywood agent hasn't snatched all of you up so you and he (or maybe a she) can make a killing in advertising. I think everyone is thinking very limited in the marketing potential of professional poker players. So far, almost everything has been poker related. But there is so much more.So, what can a poker guy or gal market? Besides on line poker sites, the possibilities are limitless. Think about the brand Hanes and Michael Jordan. What does basketball have to do with underwear? Underwear is no more important to a basketball star than it is to a school teacher. The professional poker players are much better actors than our sports figures, lets face it, you act everyday. In fact, you underact, which is best for still shots and TV. It seems so natural. I can see you, Harry promoting Barnes and Nobles, some sort of English ale, American Express card (you guys travel a lot), high end hotels, etc.I can see many of the other players market video games, American or Canadian beer, clothes, watches, jewelry (hence: gold bracelets), vacation resorts, etc.I work for a phone company and we use NASCAR guys all of the time in our campaigns. How many Americans can go out and drive a NASCAR? Very few. But we all can learn to play poker. I think you all have a much more mass appeal than anyone realizes, it just needs to be tapped into.So, with the earning potential through games and marketing, I can see why you would need and should have an association. First stop, is get a good business attorney and see what they say. Treat this as if you are a Hollywood star, because with the poker explosion, you all are becoming more than professional players. You all are Poker Stars. This site has so much activity because of Daniel's name. He is a star. Most of the pro's are also stars, just at varying degrees. Some of the biggest stars aren't even the best players.I also think the association can be used to help all of the poker stars handle fame. I do see fame as being the one thing that can lead to self destruction. Education and support of a group of associates can help minimize the negativity of fame. Oh and Harry, you mentioned that you are not well known. Sorry to say, but you are very well known. The WSOP of 2004 made you a household name for poker fans. I think you have much more clout than you give yourself credit. You also have the "wise owl" persona, which can help lead and guide the more young and impetuous. Good post Harry and I hope you join the chat room from time to time. Thanks!

[looshle 6]

Sounds like an interesting thought.  Basically a players association for poker.  

Well since the title of the topic is "Poker Players Association", I would think so. I don't go into the bad beat forum to a topic named "Bad Beat with QQ" and say "Basically, you had QQ and suffered a bad beat." lol

[Smasharoo 0]

Perhaps then some of the bigger names such as Daniel (sorry to keep volunteering you) along with say Howard Lederer John Juanda etc etc or any other group of players who feel able and willing to sacrifce their time could get together with Harraha ESPN and Steve Lipscombe and have a meeting where they can discuss some broad issues like why the players can and can't wear logos at final tables and in various events. Perhaps they could also discuss what is and isn't acceptable in terms of rake and perhaps the outcome of such a meeting or meetings could be printed in Card Player magazine. I think that's a good idea, but I think, like much else in the world it's going to come down to money. Harrah's will do what makes Harrah's the most money, as they should. If you're truely committed to the idea of the players having more controll over the game for the benefit of the players, I'd suggest the following:Develop a plan to create a priavtely held corperation which runs events. You have a signifigant advantage here because at the present time Poker has no dominant brand identity, and it's relatively inexpensive and uncomplicated to run an event. You have a talent base accustomed to playing for their own money, less than the sum of their own monies, in fact. Sell shares of the corperation to the members of your asosiation and now you have real chips (if you'll pardon the expression) with which to bargain with other organizers above and beyond abstaining from play in their events.If they refuse to accomidate you, you're free to hold events, negoiate TV contracts, etc and the player/investors will reap the rewards. I'm certain I'm not the first person this idea has occurd to, but it's something to think about if your goal is to benefit the players of the game we all love.As an aside, I'd say you are indeed, quite famous in the TV poker watching community like it or not. You were portrayed as a pillar of calm among mostly more demonstrative players, an icon of reserve and stiff upper lippedness

[HarryDemetriou 0]

This subject of advertising and endorsements is an interesting one.Despite having had numerous offers from various gambling related sites on a personal level I have always sought a different kind of sponsor...namely a mainstream non gambling related sponsor. Fortunately I am in a position where I do not have to rely on sponsorship and all my sponsors to date have had to make donations to charity in exchange for my wearing their logos.I can recall in 2003 being in advanced negotiations with an airline for an event held in the UK only to find out around 3 weeks prior to the event that logos would not be permitted. However I digress. The point to all this is that of we can get mainstream or non gambling related sponsors then I believe the gates will be opened up with regard to prize money added events.Can you imagine having the Mercedes/Kia/Ford Open or Budweiser/Carslberg/ Coca Coal Cup in the way that Golf or Tennis tournaments are run?One problem may well be the image of poker as a game ( sport???) played by degenerate low lifes.The increased television exposure helps but unfortunately in the UK poker is shown on the non mainstream or more obscure satelite channels. However television exposure has to start somewhere and if the audiences continue to grow then it's growing popularity will attract large co-orporations and organisations that will want to be associated with poker and it will appear on the main TV cahnnels too.The analogy I have drawn many times is to something like a quiz show eg Who Wants to be a Millionaire?The public love watching such shows for a number of reasons but mainly because they like to see an ordinary everyday person have a shot at winning a 1 million dollar or UK pound prize. To add interest the early questions up to around 16000 are made fairly simple so that the viewer thinks that if he/she were on the show they too could have a real chance of making a big score.When regular people (not necessarily poker players or fans) watch poker on TV they believe that success is mostly a matter of luck and think that if they played and caught good cards then they too could win a substantial amount in a tournament. Unlike the TV quiz show however in something like the WSOP the top five players all get to win $1 million+.As such poker makes compelling viewing and once non gambling related organisations want an involvement I think the days of low entry or no fee invitationaland open tournaments will arrive.Another analogy with a sport is with The British Open in Golf. This year the winner received around $1.3 million for first out of a prize pool of around $5.5 / $6 million.The main WSOP event had a $25 million prize pool and a first place prize of $5 million with fifth being $1.1 million.Now you tell me which events have the greater appeal to the viewing public? Playing for loose change or millions?When you think that in addition all this prize money is put up by the players who actually also pay for the expenses of running such an event then it is clear that poker is in the infancy stage and has an awful lot going for it but also a long way to go.The problem as ever though is how we can capitalise on all hthis.If I owned a watch or clock company I would not hesitate to sponsor John Murphy (He missed a couple of hours play on the sixth day of the WSOP main event this year by oversleeping). There are also numerous other players such as David Williams whom I would want to sponsor because they are intellegent, vibrant young personable players who have a good image that I would want my products to be associated with.Perhaps what we need are agents to act on individual players behalfs but an association could at least help in this area as they could employ or recommend agents to interested players. Alternatively the association could hold a database of details of individual players so that any interested companies could at least find a way of contacting players.The benefits to an association are endless but as always the problems lie in organisation or majority consensus as to how and what an association should do.

[stonecoldnuts 0]

Mr. Demetriou,Thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas with us in this forum. It means a lot to the fans, when someone such as yourself, reminds us of the "real person" aspect of your persona. With that said, I've got a few questions regarding the Poker Players Association. 1. Why does poker need a unifying body in the first place? Is it because the players feel used by the media and feel that unfair restrictions are being placed on their earning potential?2. If so a Poker Assocation would have clout enough to accept or deny the terms of the tournament and force the media into a take it or leave it situation?3. I'm guessing ESPN does not pay you royalties everytime they show the WSOP main event. Do you have to give away your right to everything to play in that tournament?4. My fear is the more corporate poker becomes is the quality of the game will decline....see the NBA for a clear example of this.5. Or am I missing the point entirely?

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Firstly the Mr Demetriou bit is way too formal...Harry will do.I'm not sure I have any of the answers but it does seem to me that there is a good deal of exploitation going on in the world of poker at present and that this is exclusively at the players expense.Everytime you appear on a televised poker show you have to sign a release form that effectively waives all your image rights. In other words the tv company is free to use your image as many times as it wishes without paying or compensating you.OK so some may say that they are doing the players favours by making them stars and household names which is fair enough to some extent but in sports the players will get compensated by their sponsors who will pay them for endorsing and waring their products and logos.Unfortunately in poker we are rarely allowed to endorse products or wear logos but if we were then in some way we could at least get some rewards.Personally I feel that whenever a tv deal is struck a percentage of the tv payments should go to the players.eg if the WPT gets a $5 million contract with the Travel Channel then 10% (say) of it should be given to the players who make final tables on the WPT events.Alternatively perhaps all final tablists at all televised events should be paid a fixed fee of say $10k or $20k for showing their hole cards.The figures I present are chosen arbitrarily but hopefully you get the point.The problem with a poker players association is our selfishness as players.After all we all put up our own money and as such are entitled to do what we want.However I can't help but feel that if we could set up some ground rules then we would all be able to go that next step in the development of poker for the good of all concerned and that includes the TV companies and tournament organizers as well as the players.Televised poker is still in it's relative infancy but we are going to desperately need some kind of unified direction rather than this current almost haphazard approach.Referring back to the WPT it also seems starnge to me that in the WPT events we are not allowed to wear logos but that in the PPT version logo wearing is permitted.I can understand the US government pressure wanting to oppose online gambling sites (although I personally strongly disagree with this) being promoted but the WPT has beer sponsors so I can't see why I shouldn't at least be permitted to wear a non gambling related logo in a WPT final table.This then is why I propose that we at least get together with all the concerned parties to iron out some blue print or ground rules for the future as at present we can only guess as to why some things are allowed whilst others are not.It will of course take time but maybe now is the time to start taking those first small steps to the future

[IBETUWIN 0]

hello all i am a fanatical student of the game of holdem with limit being by strongpoint, i read and absord almost everything i can find on the subject and would like to make the transition to LV to ply my trade, I have lived in Toronto, Ontario my whole life and have been playing holdem for ten years and regularily crush the local 10/20 and 20/40 games and am earning a comfortable income at this level, just wondering if this is any indication that i can make the grade in LV, how much tougher is the competition over all at these levels, i also play as high as 100/200 though it is not in my ideal comfort zone with a bankroll of about 60,000 usd. any input and advice would be great, and Daniel if you have any advice for a fellow canadian i would be honoured to hear it, thanks alot guys your a great bunch of poker enthusiasts in here,,,patit is possible to fail in many ways but success is attainable in only on...(Aristotle)