Wait For The Turn?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Hand #32811182-2605 at Maputo (Pot Limit Omaha)Powered by UltimateBetStarted at 03/Jul/06 14:56:26TightBeaver is at seat 0 with $592.30.allbetscalled is at seat 2 with $61.50.KRAZYKEV 52 is at seat 3 with $178.35.David_Nicoson is at seat 5 with $230.lord welvan is at seat 7 with $57.70.Ned Zissou is at seat 9 with $176.80.The button is at seat 7.Ned Zissou posts the small blind of $1.TightBeaver posts the big blind of $2.TightBeaver: -- -- -- --allbetscalled: -- -- -- --KRAZYKEV 52: -- -- -- --David_Nicoson: T A 2 A :heart:lord welvan: -- -- -- --Ned Zissou: -- -- -- --Pre-flop:allbetscalled folds. KRAZYKEV 52 calls.David_Nicoson calls. lord welvan folds. Ned Zissoucalls. TightBeaver checks.Flop (board: 8 A 9 ):Ned Zissou checks. TightBeaver checks. KRAZYKEV 52checks. David_Nicoson bets $8. Ned Zissou folds.TightBeaver folds. KRAZYKEV 52 raises to $32.David_Nicoson re-raises to $104. Is there any merit to just flat calling there? He either has a draw (which probably includes diamonds) or middle set here. I may be a dog to the draw on the flop. Hope for a brick on the turn and then raise? If it really is another made hand, I could lose my action if a draw hits, so I kept firing. I'm just having a small doubt about it.

[dingas 0]

I doubt he's going to put you on aces here, so you shouldn't worry about him folding a lower set. But in answer to your question, yes there is merit to just calling the flop and awaiting developments if you put him on a strong draw.By the way, why wouldn't you raise this preflop in position?

[David_Nicoson 1]

I doubt he's going to put you on aces here, so you shouldn't worry about him folding a lower set. But in answer to your question, yes there is merit to just calling the flop and awaiting developments if you put him on a strong draw.By the way, why wouldn't you raise this preflop in position?

So he wouldn't put me on aces.

[gobears 0]

There's only 12 good cards that are clean, the three K's, 2's, 3's, 4's that aren't diamonds.I think that I would flat call as well and wait for the turn.And I limp with aces also to disguise them - I'll raise with wrap draws and such instead which works out well as other players always seem to think you have aces when you pot preflop.

[timwakefield 68]

There's only 12 good cards that are clean, the three K's, 2's, 3's, 4's that aren't diamonds.I think that I would flat call as well and wait for the turn.

I would also flat call and hope that that I see a nice turn. You are crazy to think that there are only 12 clean cards, unless by "clean" you mean that you will still hold the stone cold nuts. First of all though, you left out the 4th ace, so that's 13. An 8 or 9 is good too, if your opponent has quads to your overboat then that's just bad luck. So that's 20 clean cards. I think it's fair to say that I would never ever fold the Aces over XX full house, unless I had a sick sick read.

[greatwhite 0]

Call and get your money in on a good turn.

[gobears 0]

I would also flat call and hope that that I see a nice turn. You are crazy to think that there are only 12 clean cards, unless by "clean" you mean that you will still hold the stone cold nuts. First of all though, you left out the 4th ace, so that's 13. An 8 or 9 is good too, if your opponent has quads to your overboat then that's just bad luck. So that's 20 clean cards. I think it's fair to say that I would never ever fold the Aces over XX full house, unless I had a sick sick read.

Oops - must have been drinking too much when I counted outs the first time.

[Devilkin 0]

I could not disagree more with most of these opinions. This is an outstanding flop for you, but as you said, one with some outs against you, but also one that gives you redraws to the FH in the case of a flush or straight being made on the turn.Against a single opponent, I'm putting my entire stack in on the flop. Why? You have an opponent drawing to either a straight or a flush, and he is going to pay through the nose to draw against me. Against a middle set, you are still going to get a caller half the time. You are the favourite with this flop - why wouldn't you put it all in on the flop?Look at it this way - if a card hits that has the potential to make a straight, or the third diamond hits, are you throwing trip aces away to a pot bet? Save yourself the anguish of this decision, put the decision to your opponent on the flop. All in.Dev

[dingas 0]

I think Dev is basically right. With no reads, you ought to just get all in on the flop.But if for example, if you knew that your opponent would not check-raise with middle or bottom set in such a situation (for example, I don't think I would ever play it that way), then a call makes sense.By the way, the concept "making him pay to draw" is not applicable here. If he has 6710J with a diamond draw, you are a 2:3 dog, so you are actually the one who will be paying.

[timwakefield 68]

Against a single opponent, I'm putting my entire stack in on the flop. Why? You have an opponent drawing to either a straight or a flush, and he is going to pay through the nose to draw against me. Against a middle set, you are still going to get a caller half the time. You are the favourite with this flop - why wouldn't you put it all in on the flop?

No you are way off on the bolded statement. Agains an opponent with say T765 with 2 diamonds, we are behind with top set. In Omaha you have to respect that a single opponent may have multiple draws.Edit: I see that Dingas already said kind of the same thing.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Get the money in NOW, not later. Don't forget to consider what your opponent may do if a scary card comes on the turn that DOESN'T help him here...

[Scott3705 0]

Heard about waiting for the turn w/ a set quite often. I was wondering, for those who do, what do you do when a draw card gets there.Say 10, 6, j, 7 or any diamond?

[Rocketwadster 0]

How did it turn out? Did he call your re-re-raise? Your hand hold up?

[dingas 0]

Heard about waiting for the turn w/ a set quite often. I was wondering, for those who do, what do you do when a draw card gets there.Say 10, 6, j, 7 or any diamond?

This is a good point, and one argument in favor of getting all in on the flop with no read on your opponent.The way we have played our hand, betting the flop and calling a check raise indicate sa strong draw. Therefore, if a scare card hits and our opponent leads into us, we should be inclined to respect his play. I would probably fold to a pot-sized bet if a diamond hit. For straight cards, it would depend -- a 7 would make me very nervous, but a 5, for example, would not look so threatening.

[socalpoker_j 1]

So, how did the hand play out for you?

[meservery 0]

So, how did the hand play out for you?

yes id like to know this too...***havent been playing omaha for that long... but as for what i'd do:Flopping the set -Raise/reraise on this type of flop no matter what. As the original poster said he didnt raise preflop so his opponent wouldnt put him on aces. So there is a slight chance his opponent may not even think he has trip aces, and is pushing back with something like a set himself, thinking that OP has the draw.I'm pushing this flop as hard as possible for these reasons.1 - opponent has lower set2 - opponent has 2 pair3 - opponent has junk4 - opponent has only a flush draw5 - opponent has only a OESD6 - opponent has the hand we fear, flush draw + straight draw (but we make a full house and win anyway)I'm also going to push this flop if we are the opponent and number 6 is true....so i think we'd get the money in the long run.

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

David,If you have the roll and don't mind variance then 3 betting the flop is fine. If you're on a limited roll and want 2 lower your variance, waiting for a safe 4th st. is the line you want 2 take.

[David_Nicoson 1]

How did it turn out? Did he call your re-re-raise? Your hand hold up?

He had top two pair and a flush draw. We got the money all-in on the flop. He hit the flush.

[meservery 0]

He had top two pair and a flush draw. We got the money all-in on the flop. He hit the flush.

this killed my whole response. didnt even consider this. guess thats why its good to have redraws in omaha.

[checkymcfold 0]

heads up you repot this flop all day long considering his stack size (if he was larger and could possibly not be making a mistake by calling your repot, things may change in some situations). there are virtually no hands in omaha high that have an EV edge to top set, so don't wait for a turn like a 6 offsuit that can allow him to bluff an inferior hand when he's shown significant aggression on the flop. pot limit omaha at lower limits is all about putting the money in in longterm +ev situations. this is one, and you have a lot of reason to believe that he'd be willing to call off his stack here. for the record, the only sorts of hands you're behind here are hands with both a wrap str8 draw and flush draw, and even those you're VERY close to in terms of EV. his range for making this move is hardly limited to these sorts of hands, and others you have absolutely crushed. repot every time, unless you have a strong reason to believe that he'd fold to a repot.