a case for christ

[crowTrobot 2]

religion: either you have it or you dontif you have it, you believe it and you can back it upif you dont, you dont believe in it and you can back it uppeople this fight has been going on for years. stubborn people wont change. they think that their precious online article is the be all end all of the conversation and hardly ever take the time to do research.please just shut up and ask daniel for a book if you want one.

congratulations - i didn't think it was possible but you just made a more ignorant post than Loismustdie.

[Wingmaster05 0]

The thing is, guys, once you see it it's not that hard to get it. The world, some eduacators, sometimes friends, hardship, happenstance, fear- these things get in the way and create doubt. Out of all of the things in this world, doubt is the worst- it disables the minds ability to clearly grasp what is often right in front of us. " Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief. " One of the most honest passages in the bible- mans plight in one sentence.

dude you aren't making any counter or supportive arguments, just spouting christian doctrine.you totally missed the point about hell. does it really make sense to you that a perfect, just god creates us in his image to worship and love him, yet creates eternal punishment if you don't accept him within a very limited time, then even further places humanity in a situation where the majority of people who ever lived WON'T accept him? (bible says majority are going to hell). the christian god doesn't sound perfect and loving to me, sounds vengeful and sadistic. and your above last paragraph sounds like any other cult-speak BS designed to play on the emotions. actually makes me physically sick when i read stuff like this and think the majority of western civilization is too immature not to buy into it.

Lois you still there to answer questions?This is part of the problem with accepting everything in the Bible as absolute truth; one snag and the whole thing falls apart. It has been written by many different people of different cultures and aspects, not to mention a foreign language with no relation to Enlgish. The Bible is good at heart; do you really have to take it word for word for it to be true?Yes, I am a Christian, but i chose to read the Bible and think about it's meaning. To think that a couple of the writings in the bible aren't metaphors or examples is a little naive IMO.Let's look at heaven and hell. I believe the concept of the afterlife has been greatly simplified so the masses at the time could make an easy decision. Be good, go to heaven. Be bad, go to hell. Now, what is the possibility that it is a lot more complex then that? What if you came to earth more than one time to get it right before you moved on to the afterlife? Whoa, i know, the topic of reincarnation just stuck it's ugly head in, and there is a very good reason why any logical person (involved in writing the Bible) would leave out the possibility of reincarnation. To believe in reincarnation along with God most likely means you would get MORE than one shot at being the best person in the name of God. If this was trusted doctrine, who wouldn't sit around this life, doing everything forbidden, if they knew they were capable of trying again in another life? No one would try as hard as they could to live a holy life. So if that were the case, the writers just edited the process of the afterlife so people lived their lives at their own perish.I've thought about this as other questions have come up...I guess I better ask Lois though.Sometimes the Bible appears to take shortcuts to avoid difficult explanations, which may or may not be necessary. My afterlife questions came when i was reading (not directly from the Bible, just from a bible study sheet) that God grants children (who aren't of age to honestly choose Jesus) a spot in heaven. Easy enough, i thought. The kids didnt live long enough to have the situations necessary to come to Christ, so they are given amnesty.Maybe i should stop here to make sure this is correct, but might as well go through my whole though process...But what a minute...As I undertand it, God created us and gave us FREEDOM to CHOOSE his life, to live in his name. Now, if you don't believe in reincarnation, which Christianity as a whole doesn't, why do these millions of souls get a free pass into heaven? The entire purpose of our living is to eventually come to God through our own free will, correct? This is what he truly wants, willful followers. So if these children die at a young age (i think the guesses people venture are around 8-12 years, but who knows), and they did't chose this holy life, and it is the only time they are on earth, didn't they just cheat the system? It is imperative that everyone chooses to go to God. Is this fair for the souls on earth, ones that have to make a decision, who are subject to temptation and doubt? How many do you think "go" to hell? 80, 85 %? I don't know what "most" means when the Bible says most will not go to heaven, so that's just my guess. To me, this is unfair and doesn't fit with God's will. Therefore, it's possible someone edited the process to make things easier on us. It doesn't mean the entire Bible is false. I will continue to study holy texts and try to be the best person that I can. My decision to believe in God is faith based, I really don't want "proof", or to "know the mind of God", as Hawking put it. It just means things were made easy in order to make our decision simple.Either way, it would make sense that people come to earth more than once as they progess as an individual soul, and it would make sense for the Teacher not to divulge this information for the students' own welfare. What if they aren't mature enough to accept the fact that they make get 3 or 4 tries to get it right? Surely most would cause themselves ruin if they knew for a fact that they get more than one try. Thus, the strict line, heaven or hell, one shot or bust doctrine. I don't think it's necessary for us to know for sure which is how it works; that doesn't matter. God doesn't have to tell us how everything works. He's not "lying" to us. It's a method of teaching that's in our best interests. Please, someone feel free to tell me where I'm going right or wrong in my thought process, or just comment on whether or not this makes sense. I just spent over two hours reading this post, although i skipped around...I'm not sure my brain functions properly anymore. Oh, and Norton Fan, your well thought out contribution to this post gave it some much needed comedic relief; ty.

[Wingmaster05 0]

Hi all,Seems like many of you want to pull emotions out of the thought process and come to a logical consluion of the existance of God, Christ, Hell, Satan, Heaven, etc.The book that takes a complete logical "based on what we concluded from the last chapter ..." approach, try CS Lewis' book Mere Christianity.

great book!

[crowTrobot 2]

Please, someone feel free to tell me where I'm going right or wrong in my thought process, or just comment on whether or not this makes sense.

your thought process involves more logic than most christians who have posted in this thread because, if i read your post right, you are trying to fix the simplistic illogic of christianity by fusing in the more logical 'many chances' reasoning typical of eastern religeons. however it's all you - there is nothing at all in the bible to support your reasoning. you are trying to justify your belief by sculpting god into what you think he should be based on your own personal values. this may be good for you because it makes your life happier, but it has nothing to do with seeking actual truth. as smash used to say might as well worship the easter bunny.

My decision to believe in God is faith based, I really don't want "proof"

again, whatever makes you happy. however, in terms of the evolution of human society just believing what you want for its own sake or for the sake of personal happiness and fulfullment is pretty immature, not to mention detrimental to the long-term survival chances of the human race in general. there is a truth independant of our individual personal fulfillment, and i think it's pretty important that we attempt to find it.

[Wingmaster05 0]

thanks for the prompt response and imput. is LMD ever coming back?

[UglyJimStudly 0]

The Bible is good at heart; do you really have to take it word for word for it to be true?Yes, I am a Christian, but i chose to read the Bible and think about it's meaning. To think that a couple of the writings in the bible aren't metaphors or examples is a little naive IMO.

Yeah, I think you've got the right approach. I think the bible is well worth reading and thinking about even for those who aren't Christians. AFAIK, the only group that insists on some literal interpretation of the bible as a prerequisite for Christianity is a small subset of the evangelical Christian community, and as Loismustdie has helpfully demonstrated such people do not actually treat the bible as literally true, only those parts that happen to agree with their own preconceptions.

[Loismustdie 0]

Use the King James Version, and see what you can come up with.

The King James version? You're kidding right? The King James version is a sham. He took the bible and changed the original writing in it to suit how he thought. The King James version isn't the word of the lord...it's the word of King James. The bible already lost quite a bit when it was translated into English, and lost that much more when he decided to mess with it.

WRONG. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. RESEARCH, PLEASE, I HAVEN'T THE TIME TO WALK YOU THROUGH EVERYTHING.

Is that your way of saying that you don't have a single fact to back up all of your incessant bullshit?

No, it was my way of telling you you don't. I would be willing to bet you do not even know why King James decided to employ scholars to translate the bible in the first place. LOLOLOL- you actually think that he did it himself. This thread from top to bottom, except ofor everything I say is pure comedy. I love you guys.

[Loismustdie 0]

The Bible is good at heart; do you really have to take it word for word for it to be true?Yes, I am a Christian, but i chose to read the Bible and think about it's meaning. To think that a couple of the writings in the bible aren't metaphors or examples is a little naive IMO.

Yeah, I think you've got the right approach. I think the bible is well worth reading and thinking about even for those who aren't Christians. AFAIK, the only group that insists on some literal interpretation of the bible as a prerequisite for Christianity is a small subset of the evangelical Christian community, and as Loismustdie has helpfully demonstrated such people do not actually treat the bible as literally true, only those parts that happen to agree with their own preconceptions.

The New Testament is the map given by god through christs words ( in red, just to help out the thickest of skulls ) for christianity. THE MAP FOR CHRISTIANITY, EXACTLY WHAT TO DO TO GET YOUR LITLlE HEATHEN BUTT TO HEAVEN. As far as not treating the bible as literally true I have no idea what you are talking about- I do so to the point of self condemnation, which I believe I demonstrated earlier in this thread.

[Loismustdie 0]

thanks for the prompt response and imput. is LMD ever coming back?

At some point.

[Loismustdie 0]

The thing is, guys, once you see it it's not that hard to get it. The world, some eduacators, sometimes friends, hardship, happenstance, fear- these things get in the way and create doubt. Out of all of the things in this world, doubt is the worst- it disables the minds ability to clearly grasp what is often right in front of us. " Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief. " One of the most honest passages in the bible- mans plight in one sentence.

dude you aren't making any counter or supportive arguments, just spouting christian doctrine.you totally missed the point about hell. does it really make sense to you that a perfect, just god creates us in his image to worship and love him, yet creates eternal punishment if you don't accept him within a very limited time, then even further places humanity in a situation where the majority of people who ever lived WON'T accept him? (bible says majority are going to hell). the christian god doesn't sound perfect and loving to me, sounds vengeful and sadistic. and your above last paragraph sounds like any other cult-speak BS designed to play on the emotions. actually makes me physically sick when i read stuff like this and think the majority of western civilization is too immature not to buy into it.

Lois you still there to answer questions?This is part of the problem with accepting everything in the Bible as absolute truth; one snag and the whole thing falls apart. It has been written by many different people of different cultures and aspects, not to mention a foreign language with no relation to Enlgish. The Bible is good at heart; do you really have to take it word for word for it to be true?Yes, I am a Christian, but i chose to read the Bible and think about it's meaning. To think that a couple of the writings in the bible aren't metaphors or examples is a little naive IMO.Let's look at heaven and hell. I believe the concept of the afterlife has been greatly simplified so the masses at the time could make an easy decision. Be good, go to heaven. Be bad, go to hell. Now, what is the possibility that it is a lot more complex then that? What if you came to earth more than one time to get it right before you moved on to the afterlife? Whoa, i know, the topic of reincarnation just stuck it's ugly head in, and there is a very good reason why any logical person (involved in writing the Bible) would leave out the possibility of reincarnation. To believe in reincarnation along with God most likely means you would get MORE than one shot at being the best person in the name of God. If this was trusted doctrine, who wouldn't sit around this life, doing everything forbidden, if they knew they were capable of trying again in another life? No one would try as hard as they could to live a holy life. So if that were the case, the writers just edited the process of the afterlife so people lived their lives at their own perish.I've thought about this as other questions have come up...I guess I better ask Lois though.Sometimes the Bible appears to take shortcuts to avoid difficult explanations, which may or may not be necessary. My afterlife questions came when i was reading (not directly from the Bible, just from a bible study sheet) that God grants children (who aren't of age to honestly choose Jesus) a spot in heaven. Easy enough, i thought. The kids didnt live long enough to have the situations necessary to come to Christ, so they are given amnesty.Maybe i should stop here to make sure this is correct, but might as well go through my whole though process...But what a minute...As I undertand it, God created us and gave us FREEDOM to CHOOSE his life, to live in his name. Now, if you don't believe in reincarnation, which Christianity as a whole doesn't, why do these millions of souls get a free pass into heaven? The entire purpose of our living is to eventually come to God through our own free will, correct? This is what he truly wants, willful followers. So if these children die at a young age (i think the guesses people venture are around 8-12 years, but who knows), and they did't chose this holy life, and it is the only time they are on earth, didn't they just cheat the system? It is imperative that everyone chooses to go to God. Is this fair for the souls on earth, ones that have to make a decision, who are subject to temptation and doubt? How many do you think "go" to hell? 80, 85 %? I don't know what "most" means when the Bible says most will not go to heaven, so that's just my guess. To me, this is unfair and doesn't fit with God's will. Therefore, it's possible someone edited the process to make things easier on us. It doesn't mean the entire Bible is false. I will continue to study holy texts and try to be the best person that I can. My decision to believe in God is faith based, I really don't want "proof", or to "know the mind of God", as Hawking put it. It just means things were made easy in order to make our decision simple.Either way, it would make sense that people come to earth more than once as they progess as an individual soul, and it would make sense for the Teacher not to divulge this information for the students' own welfare. What if they aren't mature enough to accept the fact that they make get 3 or 4 tries to get it right? Surely most would cause themselves ruin if they knew for a fact that they get more than one try. Thus, the strict line, heaven or hell, one shot or bust doctrine. I don't think it's necessary for us to know for sure which is how it works; that doesn't matter. God doesn't have to tell us how everything works. He's not "lying" to us. It's a method of teaching that's in our best interests. Please, someone feel free to tell me where I'm going right or wrong in my thought process, or just comment on whether or not this makes sense. I just spent over two hours reading this post, although i skipped around...I'm not sure my brain functions properly anymore. Oh, and Norton Fan, your well thought out contribution to this post gave it some much needed comedic relief; ty.

Let me throw out some scripture: " It is appointed of man once to die and then the judgement. " You only live once, and you are judged by that life. " Even a fool cannot ere therein. " Alluding to the simplicity of Gods word. " Narrow is the path that leads to eternal salvation- few there be that find it. " Few shall be saved. I don't know percentages LOL he never speaks in those terms. The purpose of man is to come to God's glory, that is true- and God wills that all men be saved- however, he doesn't to the point where you have no choice, it is up to you to choose God so to speak- he will never make you. So, that being said, after reading your post it seems to me you just kind of want to make up your own thing, because your ideas are definitely not biblical- thats o.k., that would then make you pretty much any religion, because that is what they do. If you really want to find God if you will, search the scriptures, all of the answers are there for you. You pretty much answered any question you asked all by yourself. So, in conclusion- A. You only live once. Find someone who can prove he lived twice. B. Children who die get a free pass into heaven- LOL, of course, why wouldn't they? They are children and are fee from sin- the only hting that keeps you out of heaven is sin. C. It is Gods will that you be saved- but it is up to you, which is as fair as he possibly could have made it. Any more questions.

[imhookdonnfonix 0]

Yes, I have one. You never addressed UglyJimStudly's article that he threw up there. You know, the one that totally owned you... the one you so conveniently forgot to respond to. I know this is four days after your last post, but I'd still like to see the best, half-witted explanation you can come up with.

[Wingmaster05 0]

ok, i could write a page long entry again, but ill just answer the bullets you neatly ended your post with. A. Don't ask for proof. Christians don't need proof for anything, asking for it only when it benefits you doesn't work. B. The thing that keeps you out of heaven is being w/o God's grace, which people are if they haven't willingly choosen God. You are not free from sin until a certain age, right? This doesn't make sense.C.

It is Gods will that you be saved- but it is up to you, which is as fair as he possibly could have made it.  

Correct, i agree. It is up to you, You have to choose. So the people that didn't choose...? Have no chioce? I don't get it. It appears to me as though something is missing.

[Wingmaster05 0]

LMDThere are contradictions in the bible not because His word is wrong, but because it was written by many different people who never conversed with each other. Refusing to look at who wrote it, from what viewpoint, when, etc. causes people to misunderstand the message. anyway, here it goes... I was reading my new Bible when i came across this.Genesis has a little situation where we are told the creation of man at two completely different times. They don't corroborate. Why does genesis have two accounts of creation?Gen 1.25 "God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind..." Animals are made.Gen 1.27 Man and woman are created together ("So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them). So we have animals made first, then humans. ....right?Gen 2.7 "Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his onstrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." So just man is made.Gen 2.19 "So out of the ground the LORD God formed every animal of the field..." Now animals are made after man...Gen 2.22 "...(continuing from Adam's sleep) And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man" Now woman is made.So which is it? animals then humans, or vice versa? And the creation of men and women? (My Bible (NRSV) points this out to explain that Genesis appears to have been written by more than one author. They come to this conclusion through other contradictions throughout the books. They also note how certain sections of the Bible use different terms for God (Elohim, Yahweh, are examples), corroborating with the stories that seem to be written by different people. This leads them to believe that it is written by numerous authors, and therefore can have contradictions.)

[dEv~ 19]

AUSTIN 3:16 says I just whipped your ass.Sorry couldn't help myself...move on please.

[crowTrobot 2]

A. Don't ask for proof. Christians don't need proof for anything, asking for it only when it benefits you doesn't work.

then worship easter bunny - he's fluffiest and has your sugar fix

[avsfan 0]

Edited:because I confused Genesis and Revelation. Yes I am a moron.

[Wingmaster05 0]

A. Don't ask for proof.  Christians don't need proof for anything, asking for it only when it benefits you doesn't work.

then worship easter bunny - he's fluffiest and has your sugar fix

and the easter bunny has a holy book written in His name...?

[Ju And Da 0]

One of My Ex- Girlfriends was a Sort of semi Strict Christian, who whilst i was with her decided to become more interested in christianity and her values got alot Stricter, and altho we never fell out of Love with each other infact she told me she'd never loved anyone more and that she was still in Love with me when she called it off between us deciding that she needed to be with a Christian man - The End P.s She was the one, i know that she knows that yet she still did it. Ill never put my trust in it for that reason along with every other reason thats CLiche enough for me to not bother even mentioning. Atheism - try talking me out of it im willing to listen.

[crowTrobot 2]

and the easter bunny has a holy book written in His name...?

i'll write one for you, since you need no proof to believe what you read."in the beginning was the fluff, and the fluff was bunny.. "

[timbo83 0]

this may have already been posted.I've always thought religion has too may holes in it and that it is hypocritical. This is a real letterA Letter to Dr. LauraDr Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the InternetDear Dr. Laura,Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that (Leviticus 18:22) clearly states it to be an abomination.End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in (Exodus 21:7). In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.4. (Lev. 25:44) states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 35:2) clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?7. (Lev. 21:20) states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by (Lev.19:27). How should they die?9. I know from (Lev.11:6-8 ) that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?10. My uncle has a farm. He violates (Lev. 19:19) by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.Your devoted fan, Jimsource : http://www.fortliberty.org/patriotic-humor...r/drlaura.shtmljust adding to the debate :?

[UglyJimStudly 0]

this may have already been posted.I've always thought religion has too may holes in it and that it is hypocritical. This is a real letter

Well, it might be, but the exact authorship is unknown so nobody can say that for sure. Here's one investigation:http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.aspOf course, the uncertain origin doesn't change the basic point of the essay - that nobody interprets the bible literally (or indeed, of just about any other religious work I'm familiar with), they pick and choose verses that just happen to agree with what they already believe. So when a creationist or a homophobe or a flat-earther or whoever says "I'm just doing what the bible says", they're deceiving themselves.

[timbo83 0]

i believe that its real ugly jim but i agree with your post that there is no conclusive evidence that it is.Reminds of another topic :wink:

[cu in 4 yrs Dan 0]

Hey people. I also would just like to comment on my great respect for daniel.As a christian, growing up in a Christian family its been hard to explain to my parents and loved ones that i will be apoker great, i am determained to be one and nothing will get in my way.Because of daniel i have been able to show my folks and friends that poker not all poker players are bad apples and cheats. by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

[crowTrobot 2]

Hey people. I also would just like to comment on my great respect for daniel.As a christian, growing up in a Christian family its been hard to explain to my parents and loved ones that i will be apoker great, i am determained to be one and nothing will get in my way.Because of daniel i have been able to show my folks and friends that poker not all poker players are bad apples and cheats. by using Daniel as an example of a person with a poker career as well as being an all round good person with the right faith i have been able to put poker in a better light with my parents.GOD RULES!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!!!

lol you are too enthusiastic to be a poker great. better level out dude.

[Longshanks 0]

yah if you can convert some of that energy into being a christian great you will be sitting pretty, I too was glad to hear Daniel come out about his faith, that book is really good for those who havent read it