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So no one who has read the Origin of the Species has any recollection about what Darwin said concerning complex organs such as the human eye?
Yet another of the arguments that Answers in Genesis recommends creationists don't use. As quote-mined by creationists, he says that the eye is a wondrous construct and it looks like proof of a creator. But that leaves out the actual context in which he wrote, in which he then basically says but if you think that, you're wrong - here's how the eye could easily have evolved and proceeds to outline how, with various evidentiary cites. And of course, 150 years later, we know considerably more about the topic than Darwin did.
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-  Stephen Hawking, "A Brief History of Time"
Two things to note about Hawking's quote - one, there's a whole lot of "if"s in his statement, it's clear he's speculating (and, IMHO, giving us a view into his personal opinions on faith) rather than presenting a fully formed idea. Second, the quote is almost 20 years old, there are more modern alternatives to the theory he raises.
If the universe (perhaps) has no need for a Creator God, it seems unlikely that one exists.
Lots of things exist that aren't necessary, and that "perhaps" is fairly important. AFAIK, more modern takes on cosmology - such as the "what we observe is actually a side effect" ideas from string theory - make the universe a much weirder place than Hawking's well-ordered cycles. I doubt this is a question that will be answered in my lifetime, if at all, so I leave the existence of God (or gods, or whatever) to a matter of personal choice.
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Tim asked what I believe.I strictly believe in the creation outlined in Genesis. I believe the God of the Bible is God, the Creator, Father, and King of everything. I believe the fall of man came from Adam and Eve being disobedient to GodI believe God in His infinite love and mercy has provided a way for mankind to be reconciled to Him through His son Jesus Christ.I believe that Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and that Christianity is not a religion or a set of ideals, it is not a list filled with"do this"'s and "don't do this"'s.I believe in the doctrine of the trinity.When I pray I do not pray to a dark void, hoping someone hears me. I pray to a God who I know intimately. He is more complex than I can imagine, but I absolutely love knowing Him more.

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Yes Neal, the other explanation being that God created all life? Adam and Eve? Or that God created evolution? Why don't you tell us what you think, instead of telling me to find "the truth," because I have read extensively about it, and I haven't found any rational argument against evolution. Darwin didn't come up with natural selection out of thin air, and then try to find a scientific basis for it. It happened the other way. Evolution isn't something scientists made up because they are atheists; it is what they have discovered, through scientific method, to be the way of the world.
Oddly enough, if you outright ask a scientist if they have proved the theory of evolution he will tell you no. He has to. He would be lying otherwise. Oddly enough they are quite honest about this. Out of curiosity, if man came from apes- why are ther still apes?
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- Stephen Hawking, "A Brief History of Time"
Two things to note about Hawking's quote - one, there's a whole lot of "if"s in his statement, it's clear he's speculating (and, IMHO, giving us a view into his personal opinions on faith) rather than presenting a fully formed idea. Second, the quote is almost 20 years old, there are more modern alternatives to the theory he raises.
If the universe (perhaps) has no need for a Creator God, it seems unlikely that one exists.
Lots of things exist that aren't necessary, and that "perhaps" is fairly important. AFAIK, more modern takes on cosmology - such as the "what we observe is actually a side effect" ideas from string theory - make the universe a much weirder place than Hawking's well-ordered cycles. I doubt this is a question that will be answered in my lifetime, if at all, so I leave the existence of God (or gods, or whatever) to a matter of personal choice.
Jim - I was just throwing Hawking into the mix for the sake of discussion, to give us a scientist's view of God. There are an awful lot of ifs, and that quote (which came from quite near the end of his book) is full of speculation. What I meant by having no need for a Creator was this: science teaches that the simplest possible answer is usually the correct answer. The argument made by some creationists is that God must have created evolution. My point is that this is unnecessary to the discussion of evolution, as there is no proof of it and it adds nothing to our understanding of the process. Evolution is exactly the same whether a spiritual force constructed it or not. Many creationists have changed their cry from Adam and Eve to Intelligent Design, but this is just a way of masking their contempt for the scientific process which discovered evolution.
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Oddly enough, if you outright ask a scientist if they have proved the theory of evolution he will tell you no. He has to. He would be lying otherwise. Oddly enough they are quite honest about this. Out of curiosity, if man came from apes- why are ther still apes?
You are nitpicking. You may call it an unproven theory simply because it is a process which has taken billions of years. Obviously we weren't around to witness the beginnings of life, but scientists may theorize based on what evidence they have. And the evidence supporting evolution is overwhelming. Look at the fossil records. Look at genetic histories. To answer your question about apes: an orangutan did not one day give birth to a human and thus start the human race. Man "came from apes" in the same sense that man came from fish, and yet we still have fish. Modern apes are our close cousins, on the evolutionary scale. But man is not the goal of evolution. It has no goal. That humans are one species and chimpanzees are another, both with common ancestors, should come as no surprise. Just because one species of monkey learned to talk and build houses and play poker does not imply that other, similar species should stop existing. This is why there are still apes.
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Out of curiosity, if man came from apes- why are ther still apes?
man didn't come from apes in the sense of evolving from modern ape species. both man and all modern apes are various branches evolving from a single common ape-like ancestor long in the past. based on observations of modern closely related species groups this appears to happen at least partly because different populations of one species become isolated from each other and lose gene flow and diverge to meet differing environmental needs. this has been proven to have happened remarkably fast with populations of modern species that have recently (geologically speaking) become isolated on islands.there are also various versions of evolutionary theory involving "punctuated equalibrium" where there are long periods of status quo with little speciation (evolution of new species) interspersed with short periods of heavy speciation brought on by extreme environmental stress - for example comet hits earth, climate changes radically, lots of natural selective adaptations suddenly going all at once to meet survival needs etc.
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Tim asked what I believe.I strictly believe in the creation outlined in Genesis. I believe the God of the Bible is God, the Creator, Father, and King of everything. I believe the fall of man came from Adam and Eve being disobedient to GodI believe God in His infinite love and mercy has provided a way for mankind to be reconciled to Him through His son Jesus Christ.
glad you're enjoying your cult experience. you too, DN : )as i've said before in this thread religeon is a crutch that humanity will need to mature beyond to survive long-term. not happening any time soon apparently.
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i've never bought into the whole evolution thing, and here's why: if everything "evolved" from something else at one point, they would still be "evolving" right? so where are the 1/2 ape-1/2 humans all at? there would be some in-betweeners running around today right? otherwise it would just be monkey gives birth to man. it seems to me that the whole lack of a middle species existing today is rather important. or is it believed that evolution just stopped, because it was perfected? not meaning to piss on anyone's views, i just don't get it. feel free to explain.

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i've never bought into the whole evolution thing, and here's why:  if everything "evolved" from something else at one point, they would still be "evolving" right?  so where are the 1/2 ape-1/2 humans all at?  there would be some in-betweeners running around today right?  otherwise it would just be monkey gives birth to man.   it seems to me that the whole lack of a middle species existing today is rather important.  or is it believed that evolution just stopped, because it was perfected?  not meaning to piss on anyone's views, i just don't get it.  feel free to explain.
the answer is because what you're thinking of as "middle species" probably tend to get outcompeted and die out very quickly - it really is survival of the fittest.for example in terms of human evolution there is evidence that there were at least several, if not many "middle" species around at the same time probably right up until the era homo erectus started rapidly expanded its range and (probably) killing off or outcompeting for survival every other pre-human-like species it encountered.the thinking is that there are only so many evolutionary niches to go around, and in many cases stronger species tend to fill them completely forcing out less-adaptive direct ancestor species or inferior competetive side-branches.also a dominant species like modern humans with nearly universal gene flow would tend to homogenize over time, which would tend to weed out any remaining ape/human "tweener" genetic legacy.also keep in mind it doesn't take very much genetic divergence for species to be radically different. we share 95% of our genetic code with chimpanzees (i think even higher with orangutans according to one study). in terms of side-branching you could make the argument that chimps ARE a tweener - much more recently diverged from humans than other monkeys.
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another point that modern biology is currently exploring is that it seems to takes a lot of "evolving" for isolated populations to truly diverge reproductively. in other words if two populations of a species become isolated they can evolve to where they look very different, but they can still breed and potentially re-homogenize if the two populations come back into contact. this seems to be happening currently with some northern-breeding bird species due to the geologically-speaking very recently ended ice age.

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according to that, wouldn't the more advanced monkey-humans phase out the regular monkeys, due to being more fit for survival? now i could be wrong, but isn't the reason things "evolved" to become better suited for their environment? if this is the case, this would happen starting from species A all the way to species Z, until only species Z survived, since all previous would be phased out due to their ineptitude for survival. so no monkeys left, there's no room for them. soory to come off sounding ignorant, but the more i think it through, the more confused i get.

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good point from a logic standpoint, but the process is certainly a lot more complex than i'm describing.i would assume in our case it's because by the time the direct branch of pre-humans had diverged from pre-apes to the point of being able to outcompete anything in their path they were no longer directly competing with the branch leading to modern apes. this is pure speculation, but it's possible the branch leading to modern humans left the trees a million years or more before the branch leading to modern chimps and gorillas.

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also see my above post about punctuated equalibrium. some evolutionary scientists think not much speciation goes on except in time of extreme environmental stress, when environmental niches and resources are at a minimum and competition is at it's highest.

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 Oddly enough, if you outright ask a scientist if they have proved the theory of evolution he will tell you no.
Sure. He'll answer the same way about the theory of gravity, too - scientific theories by definition cannot be proved, only falsified. So if your point is that evolution is as much a theory as gravity, then you're right on track. I suspect that's not what you were trying to say, though.Now if you ask him "has the theory of evolution been falsified", then chances are he'll say "no, certainly not, in fact there's a huge mass of evidence that agrees with it."
Out of curiosity, if man came from apes- why are ther still apes?
Apes are a group of related species. The evolution of one particular species in that group does not require that all other species suddenly go extinct.And of course, there will be apes as long as there are humans - from a biological classification point of view, we are apes. Less hair, a lot weaker, bigger brains, but pretty clearly apes, given special status only because we're the ones that do the classifying.. Carl Linnaeus (father of taxonomy) wrote:"I demand of you, and of the whole world, that you show me a generic character...by which to distinguish between Man and Ape. I myself most assuredly know of none. I wish somebody would indicate one to me. But, if I had called man an ape, or vice versa, I would have fallen under the ban of all the ecclesiastics. It may be that as a naturalist I ought to have done so."That was in 1788, if you're curious.
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if everything "evolved" from something else at one point, they would still be "evolving" right?  so where are the 1/2 ape-1/2 humans all at?  there would be some in-betweeners running around today right?
Not likely, the line that eventually became humans split off from the other apes more than a million years ago (and perhaps three or four million years, there's lots of debate about where particular species fit on the tree). Transitional species typically aren't very long-lived (in geological terms), it's hard to catch them in the act. Best chance to observe them is during forced speciation experiments, which are usually conducted with very short-lived creatures - fruit flies, bacteria, etc.But if you're looking for other human-like species, at least two are thought by many scientists to have shared the planet with us up to perhaps 20000 years ago, neanderthals and homo floriensis.
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 Oddly enough, if you outright ask a scientist if they have proved the theory of evolution he will tell you no.
Sure. He'll answer the same way about the theory of gravity, too - scientific theories by definition cannot be proved, only falsified. So if your point is that evolution is as much a theory as gravity, then you're right on track. I suspect that's not what you were trying to say, though.Now if you ask him "has the theory of evolution been falsified", then chances are he'll say "no, certainly not, in fact there's a huge mass of evidence that agrees with it."
Out of curiosity, if man came from apes- why are ther still apes?
Apes are a group of related species. The evolution of one particular species in that group does not require that all other species suddenly go extinct.And of course, there will be apes as long as there are humans - from a biological classification point of view, we are apes. Less hair, a lot weaker, bigger brains, but pretty clearly apes, given special status only because we're the ones that do the classifying.. Carl Linnaeus (father of taxonomy) wrote:"I demand of you, and of the whole world, that you show me a generic character...by which to distinguish between Man and Ape. I myself most assuredly know of none. I wish somebody would indicate one to me. But, if I had called man an ape, or vice versa, I would have fallen under the ban of all the ecclesiastics. It may be that as a naturalist I ought to have done so."That was in 1788, if you're curious.
Lol- gravity is proven everytime I walk out the front door you babbling idiot. What a joke. Let's see, go to the zoo and watch an ape. Watch him sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and the n scratch his buddys head and eat his fleas. You know the best part about morons like you? You actually believe this ridiculous egotistical mindboggling B.S.- so much easier to go, geez, you know, not one of us can make a dead man come back to life. Once it's gone, it's gone. There is no replacing what god has given and then what god takes away- theres no real secret to it either it just can't be done. The creator made it so easy for you to believe and you can't see the easiest thing to see- that the human body is an intricate machine with design that is clearly not happenstance, or accident- man what a group of morons evolutionists are. Am I harsh? Yes. It is well deserved.
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 Lol- gravity is proven everytime I walk out the front door you babbling idiot. What a joke. Let's see, go to the zoo and watch an ape. Watch him sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and the n scratch his buddys head and eat his fleas. You know the best part about morons like you? You actually believe this ridiculous egotistical mindboggling B.S.- so much easier to go, geez, you know, not one of us can make a dead man come back to life. Once it's gone, it's gone. There is no replacing what god has given and then what god takes away- theres no real secret to it either it just can't be done. The creator made it so easy for you to believe and you can't see the easiest thing to see- that the human body is an intricate machine with design that is clearly not happenstance, or accident- man what a group of morons evolutionists are. Am I harsh? Yes. It is well deserved.
Do you believe that the earth revolves around the sun? I'm sure you're aware that the Church made Galileo recant his beliefs on planetary motion under threat of execution. Slowly though, it became accepted as fact. The same will happen with evolution.
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 Lol- gravity is proven everytime I walk out the front door you babbling idiot. What a joke. Let's see, go to the zoo and watch an ape. Watch him sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and the n scratch his buddys head and eat his fleas. You know the best part about morons like you? You actually believe this ridiculous egotistical mindboggling B.S.- so much easier to go, geez, you know, not one of us can make a dead man come back to life. Once it's gone, it's gone. There is no replacing what god has given and then what god takes away- theres no real secret to it either it just can't be done. The creator made it so easy for you to believe and you can't see the easiest thing to see- that the human body is an intricate machine with design that is clearly not happenstance, or accident- man what a group of morons evolutionists are. Am I harsh? Yes. It is well deserved.
Do you believe that the earth revolves around the sun? I'm sure you're aware that the Church made Galileo recant his beliefs on planetary motion under threat of execution. Slowly though, it became accepted as fact. The same will happen with evolution.
I don't care what catholicism did- catholicism is the worst possible example of religion you could have mentioned. I am in no way privy to the actions of catholics of the past or today for that matter- that church is a huge reason why a large amount of people get turned off to religion in the first place. No, Evolution will never be accepted or proven for that matter- entirely because it's a ridiculous notion. I like how you have pinned your hopes on it being proven on this statement-" Well, because other things have been proven, therefore this will be to. " Very, very astute. VERY SCIENTIFIC. It is amazing the lenghths people will go to to deny a creator. They will hang onto anything, and he says the word of god is so easy even a fool cannot err in it. Doesn't say much for some of us, does it?
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 Lol- gravity is proven everytime I walk out the front door you babbling idiot. What a joke. Let's see, go to the zoo and watch an ape. Watch him sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and the n scratch his buddys head and eat his fleas. You know the best part about morons like you? You actually believe this ridiculous egotistical mindboggling B.S.- so much easier to go, geez, you know, not one of us can make a dead man come back to life. Once it's gone, it's gone. There is no replacing what god has given and then what god takes away- theres no real secret to it either it just can't be done. The creator made it so easy for you to believe and you can't see the easiest thing to see- that the human body is an intricate machine with design that is clearly not happenstance, or accident- man what a group of morons evolutionists are. Am I harsh? Yes. It is well deserved.
Do you believe that the earth revolves around the sun? I'm sure you're aware that the Church made Galileo recant his beliefs on planetary motion under threat of execution. Slowly though, it became accepted as fact. The same will happen with evolution.
I'm sill laughing at your reasoning why Evolution will be proven. What lunacy. That's like saying that I will win a million dolars because my brother did.
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 Lol- gravity is proven everytime I walk out the front door you babbling idiot.
So's evolution, as a phenomenon. What you were asking about is proof of the theory of evolution, and the theory of gravity (or actually theories - there are at least three in general use) is in exactly the same boat. No scientist can tell you truthfully that any scientific theory has been proven, because scientific theories don't work that way. All they can tell you is that they've been trying to disprove it, and so far failed to do so.BTW, reliance on personal attacks is a pretty clear indication that your argument can't stand on its own merits. If and when you think of something coherent to say, be sure and let us know.Edit - it occurs to me that you might actually think this is some kind of proof that humans shouldn't be considered apes:
Let's see, go to the zoo and watch an ape. Watch him sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and the n scratch his buddys head and eat his fleas.
... in which case, I guess I should attempt to educate you. First up, taxonomic classifications (which is how scientists decide what species should be grouped together into family, kingdom, phyla, etc.) are not based on behaviour. My dog's behaviour is a lot different from a wolf's, yet they're both canines. The distinction is made in one of two ways: starting a little over 200 years ago with Carl Linnaeus, it was done by studying anatomy and grouping together similar species according to their skeletal structure and other internal anatomy. There's a modern effort underway to group species together by DNA. In both methods, humans are extremely similar to the other apes, close enough that if we were talking about any other animal there'd be no question that they'd be grouped with the apes. Second, watching apes in the zoo to get an idea of their natural behaviour is about as valid as watching humans in prison to get an idea of how humans act. It can tell you something about how they react when pent up in a small space and prevented from leaving for years at a time, but it's certainly not the whole story.Third, different apes behave very differently. Our behaviour is not particularly close to gorillas, for example. OTOH, anthropologists studying some types of chimpanzees have found that they form tribes, ally to create larger political organizations, wage war for territory or resources, use tools, former stable families, cheat on their mates, and otherwise do a lot of things that humans do. They don't have the brainpower or language skills to do all that on the same scale as we do, but they do try.
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  The creator made it so easy for you to believe and you can't see the easiest thing to see- that the human body is an intricate machine with design that is clearly not happenstance, or accident- man what a group of morons evolutionists are. Am I harsh? Yes. It is well deserved.
it's presumtuous and egotistical to assume that you (or any human) has the knowledge to form a valid conclusion that the human body is "clearly not happenstance". evolutionists don't claim that anything is clear, because unlike you they are objective and can see that our knowledge of the subject is quite limited. they are just looking at a growing pattern of evidence that seems to indicate that it COULD have happened, not claiming that it clearly did (evidence that would seem counterproductive for a creator to leave if he wanted us to believe we were created).as is the case with most christians you have yourself up on a pedestal, starting with the assumption that you are the most important thing in the the universe, and nature necessarily has to be less complex than your level of understanding. IT DOESN'T. it is clearly very complex and we only just barely beginning to understand anything about it.there's no logic in using the fact that you personally can't fathom something to validate a creator (which is a polite way of saying creationists are morons).
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 Lol- gravity is proven everytime I walk out the front door you babbling idiot. What a joke. Let's see, go to the zoo and watch an ape. Watch him sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and sit there- and the n scratch his buddys head and eat his fleas. You know the best part about morons like you? You actually believe this ridiculous egotistical mindboggling B.S.- so much easier to go, geez, you know, not one of us can make a dead man come back to life. Once it's gone, it's gone. There is no replacing what god has given and then what god takes away- theres no real secret to it either it just can't be done. The creator made it so easy for you to believe and you can't see the easiest thing to see- that the human body is an intricate machine with design that is clearly not happenstance, or accident- man what a group of morons evolutionists are. Am I harsh? Yes. It is well deserved.
Do you believe that the earth revolves around the sun? I'm sure you're aware that the Church made Galileo recant his beliefs on planetary motion under threat of execution. Slowly though, it became accepted as fact. The same will happen with evolution.
I'm sill laughing at your reasoning why Evolution will be proven. What lunacy. That's like saying that I will win a million dolars because my brother did.
Wake up buddy. Read what I said. All I said is evolution will come to be accepted, as did a heliocentric solar system. I never said evolution will become accepted 1) because it will be proven, or 2)because it is similar in nature to theories on planetary motion. I only said one happened, and the other will happen. Their similarity is that they are both theories about the universe which are widely accepted among scientists, but rejected by Christianity.
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